Points or Rolls?

[Zyranthian]

So you treat the people you're willing to invite to your guild WORSE than random strangers?

Yeah, that totally makes perfect sense.

You're right.

Silly me.

You're only treating the trial worse if your guild is bad and not worth getting invited to. Otherwise the trial that gets invited to be a regular raid member is getting a far better deal than the pug who gets brought along for a couple of bosses. Joining as a regular member means getting to down bosses on a regular basis, more chance at getting more loot in the future (and getting priority on the specific pieces you really want), and the chance to work on progression bosses rather than just be brought along to farm loot (which I'd imagine is what interests a lot of serious raiders more).

To use your previous analogy, its like the difference between a temp that comes in and does the job for a couple of days and is then gone, and the person who gets hired as a full time employee with full benefits, opportunities for promotion and future stability. Theres a lot of benefits to being part of a solid raiding guild than just "How much loot can I get".

[Deleted]

So you treat the people you're willing to invite to your guild WORSE than random strangers?

Yeah, that totally makes perfect sense.

You're right.

Silly me.

You're not treating him worse. The trial is trying to prove he's good enough to get into the guild, at which point he will get loot just like everyone else. The PUG is given loot because otherwise, why the hell would the pug join the raid? Giving a pugger loot is a crappy compromise because the guild can't produce enough members, no one WANTS to give gear to the PUG.

[Krom2040]

I don't think that guild leaders or guild loot councils necessarily *intend* to play favorites or make decisions that appear incestuous, but unfortunately it's human nature either for that to happen. Let me elaborate on this a little bit. When an item drops that can theoretically be valuable to multiple people, the (largely self-appointed) deciders now put the burden upon themselves to decide how this piece of loot can be distributed in a way that "maximizes raid potential". When phrased in this way, it certainly seems to be a noble goal. So they start considering the factors: (1) is the player we stick "our" item onto good enough to make use of this? (2) is the player going to be around enough? (3) what's the likelihood of this item dropping again?

Here's where it starts to break down. The natural inclination for most people in this scenario is to err towards the people they've played with the longest. "Well Bob's been here forever and we know he's a great player!" Well, it's true, Bob may well be the most senior rogue in the guild, and he probably does do the top DPS, and maybe he's there for most raids. But now we're at a point where perception can easily overtake reality. It's very rare that people are both taking *and* using their records on things like attendance and damage. It's also fairly rare that people are doing all the calculations required to determine whether a person's damage is appropriate for their level of gear.

So maybe the reality is that Bob's been in the guild for 15 months and Susan has been in the guild for 13 months; well past the point where there's any real, tangible difference between them. But the perception still lingers that Bob has been around longer, a perception that was formed back when that two month lead was significant and just never got shaken. Maybe the reality is also that Bob *does* do a lot of damage, which is "proven" by the fact that he always tops the damage meters. That's empirical evidence! Bob's pulling 60k DPS, and that's a lot! Tim only does 45k DPS, and that's much more towards the middle of the pack, so he's not bringing as much to the raid. But now it turns out that we failed to consider that Tim is running a major ilvl deficit because his gear is worse than Bob's, but moreover, we lacked the nuance of analysis to note that we always put Bob on AoE duty (because we trust him to handle it!), so his numbers are artificially inflated. The reality may well be that Tim is actually a little bit better than Bob, and in the same gear and responsibility, would be doing 65k DPS. Because they're both decent rogues.

But when we ask people to make these decisions, they tend to rely on perceptions that are founded on incomplete evidence and may poorly reflect reality. The consequence of this is a self-perpetuating cycle that unfortunately is very stable in the wrong ways, where some people are forever first-class citizens and other people are forever in the rungs below. For example, how often does a new person get rotated into the loot council? My guess is, for the average guild, not very often. And probably only when an existing member quits the game. And the replacement is usually promoted for largely social reasons.

So not only do you have a system that is flawed for inherent reasons, but now you've got people standing behind that decision as thought it were made carefully, whether it was or not. And they have *reasons*. Now Susan and Tim may be fairly happy in the guild, and they don't want to appear ungrateful (they are, after all, not first class citizens, and they understand that their loot depends on the perceptions that the first class citizens have of them). So they don't say anything. But what they may be thinking is... "I've been here nearly as long as Bob", or "I could do as much damage as Bob if I didn't always have worse gear". Essentially, things that are totally reasonable because they're totally *correct*! And now they're not mildly annoyed with the RNG, now they're actually annoyed with people who made these decisions and stand by them. For items that you have no way of knowing whether they'll be coming down the pipe again.

And one thing to note is that even if their opinions are *wrong*, even if Bob actually is a much better player and actually does have much more experience, these opinions will still feel quite real to those people, and have a way of contributing to negative feelings. Negative feelings in the long term add up to reduced loyalty and, perhaps more importantly as far as some guilds are concerned, reduced performance.

And realistically, perceptions are just as likely to be wrong on either side of the fence.

I feel like I'm droning on and on about this, but the point I'm hopefully making is that, generally, people can't be reliably trusted to make decisions on these kinds of things, and whether or not they're trustworthy, it's unlikely that everybody they're making decisions about actually agrees with their rationale.

So it's substantially better, in my opinion, to arrive at a system where players are roughly on equally footing for all loot (excluding any trial periods, which should be kept to a reasonable length). Even when it's not entirely numerically optimal, it's still superior to the disadvantages inherent in the human failure of a loot council system.

[Zlebar]

Anecdote: Back when I was raiding seriously, I was a healer. Healing was never a problem for us, we almost never wiped due to insufficient healing. It just wasn't an issue. So guess where ALL the drops went? Tanks and DPS. Personally, even when the RL tried to give me an item, I'd see if any other role needed it first because quite simply the healing crew didn't need the gear as much as the other roles did.

Truth, most top end guilds give healers loot last. Because top end guilds use cooldowns correctly and know how to heal efficiently regaurdless of mana.

[Deleted]

Truth, most top end guilds give healers loot last. Because top end guilds use cooldowns correctly and know how to heal efficiently regaurdless of mana.

Also; people don't take that much raid damage because of better understandings of the mechanics.

[Divinesinz]

I am a fan of loot council personally (as long as those on the council take their role seriously of course). I know we geared our tanks and heals as a slightly higher priority, depending on the quality of upgrade for the player (ex: is it only a minimal side grade for the healer vs a main spec upgrade for the dps?). Everything has to be considered, but I like the way loot council works as opposed to just hoping my /roll doesn't suicide itself.

[Deleted]

Right now we're doing a light loot council to eliminate overly random rolls. Basically looking at things like secondary stat priority (if the next boss drops your best shit and this one has your worst stats, sorry, the players with the opposite situation will get prioritized), level of upgrade (say, 20 itemlevels vs "oh but it's warforged and I have regular") and loot streaks, deciding if we should eliminate anyone based on the above, and let the rest roll. It's functional, despite some people deciding to cause drama for drama's sake. But obviously it's also pretty high maintenance and requires a council who will leave personal bias aside.

[sarym13]

Do people still use the DKP style method? Haven't seen this since 40 man raids and my old Everquest1 days. Every Guild I've been in since Cata and ones I am close to all use loot council.

[Whales96]

My guild has been using Suicide Kings, which I think has worked quite well. You eliminate the randomness of rolls and personal loot, and end up with a system where you're only getting pieces that are actually upgrades. Plus the distribution throughout raid members is fairly even. We modify it slightly and force players to take items that are upgrades when they're next on the list (so they can't be greedy and hold out for a particular item) except when it's a very tiny upgrade and would best suit the raid as a whole if given to someone else.

How is it being greedy to hold out for better items instead of rolling on every tiny upgrade?

[Radish Spirit]

How is it being greedy to hold out for better items instead of rolling on every tiny upgrade?

You are purposefully dodging upgrades (which would benefit the raid) in order to get a "better" item for yourself (at less total benefit to the raid).

It's more selfish than greedy, really.

[Whales96]

You are purposefully dodging upgrades (which would benefit the raid) in order to get a "better" item for yourself (at less total benefit to the raid).

It's more selfish than greedy, really.

But you're dodging items that are of minimal upgrade to you. Those items can then go to other members and instead of taking 2 or 3 small upgrades, those upgrades go to other members and you take the 1 item you need, resulting in 2 items going to the raid instead of 2 items going to one person who doesn't really need those items. In this case the benefit to the raid would be more efficiently used instead of pushing minor upgrades on one person who doesn't need/want them.

[Radish Spirit]

But you're dodging items that are of minimal upgrade to you. Those items can then go to other members and instead of taking 2 or 3 small upgrades, those upgrades go to other members and you take the 1 item you need, resulting in 2 items going to the raid instead of 2 items going to one person who doesn't really need those items. In this case the benefit to the raid would be more efficiently used instead of pushing minor upgrades on one person who doesn't need/want them.

You're describing the absolutely ideal scenario, which is rarely what happens in game. It's very common for people to dodge perfectly legitimate upgrades in order to horde DKP for a weapon, or shield, or something "more valuable" to them personally (but not to the raid as a whole).

In traditional DKP systems it was not uncommon for items to go UNCLAIMED because people in the raid refused to spend DKP because they were saving "for later."

This is why certain guilds began to develop rules about "forcing" players to take upgrades because letting people make their own decisions about when to spend leads to hording and holds back the group as a whole.

Also, you keep talking about "small upgrades" like that's a bad thing. The entire game is built around small upgrades. Once you finish the first raid a couple times, every upgrade you get for the remainder of the expansion is basically a "small upgrade." You never get any big uprades. You get more powerful slowly over time by accuring many small upgrades.

[Whales96]

You're describing the absolutely ideal scenario, which is rarely what happens in game. It's very common for people to dodge perfectly legitimate upgrades in order to horde DKP for a weapon, or shield, or something "more valuable" to them personally (but not to the raid as a whole).

In traditional DKP systems it was not uncommon for items to go UNCLAIMED because people in the raid refused to spend DKP because they were saving "for later."

This is why certain guilds began to develop rules about "forcing" players to take upgrades because letting people make their own decisions about when to spend leads to hording and holds back the group as a whole.

Also, you keep talking about "small upgrades" like that's a bad thing. The entire game is built around small upgrades. Once you finish the first raid a couple times, every upgrade you get for the remainder of the expansion is basically a "small upgrade." You never get any big uprades. You get more powerful slowly over time by accuring many small upgrades.

Wouldn't someone be more valuable to the raid if they were correctly itemized vs wearing the extra gear the raid leader made them spend their points on? You imply the dps are more than willing to dodge a "perfectly legitimate upgrade" but what if what you consider a perfectly legitimate upgrade is actually bad because you don't play their class? You seem to imply that a raid that takes every single drop they can equip would do better than a well itemized raid and I'm just having a lot of trouble agreeing with that.

[majinbebi]

I wouldn't consider us a 'serious/hardcore' guild, although we do efficiently progress through content. I would just like the current raiders to be awarded fairly with the time and effort put into raiding. Loot council sounds decent, although discussing who should receive the cloth helm would most likely end up with 5-10 mins of extra downtime after a boss kill. Seems like EPGP would be the way to go.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Everyone not in council should be clearing trash. If there's tanks/healers in council, they should still be pulling trash. All loot should be distributed by the time you get to the boss. If people are waiting around for loot council to discuss, then you're not doing it right.

[pankind]

EPGP is the best way to distribute loot, but trinkets/weapons should probably still be done with a loot council that way your best/most reliable players can get priority, although they would still get charged of course. That way players aren't encouraged to save all their points for the weapons/trinkets while passing on the other items.

They will still bank points to soften the blow when they know they are in line for an upgrade, or simply to increase their chances of being considered for it.

[Whales96]

Taking a crappy upgrade that's still an upgrade is better than sharding the item, yes.

I would agree there. I was talking more in the case of that item going to another raid member or myself.

[chuachua]

Put it this way: If loot is so important to a trial in my raid (like Kerchunk), they would probably fail trial because of their mindset. As an officer of my guild I want people who want bosses to fall over, not those who want to get decked in full mwf socketed gear.

[Whales96]

Put it this way: If loot is so important to a trial in my raid (like Kerchunk), they would probably fail trial because of their mindset. As an officer of my guild I want people who want bosses to fall over, not those who want to get decked in full mwf socketed gear.

Well, any serious raider knows that loot is important. You shouldn't fail someone just because they don't pass on everything. Loot helps dps do dps. Loot helps healers heal. Loot helps Tanks survive more.

[Whales96]

Well yes, that's true, but there's a fine line between, "I want to perform for the guild" and "I want loot, give me loot".

It's sometimes hard to judge.

[chuachua]

Well yes, that's true, but there's a fine line between, "I want to perform for the guild" and "I want loot, give me loot".

Sadly many players do raid for loot. Why they do that is beyond me. Also I was basically talking about trials rather than raiders because the thing that decides whether they pass or fail is mainly their attitude (of course minimum skill level is required). Many guilds are lazy and do not analyze logs in accordance to their raiders' gear level, which causes undergeared people to look bad when in most cases they actually aren't. This causes said issues like loot being unfairly handed out.