Kidney Shot Nurfed

[Deleted]

Are you talking about shadow reflection still? DR is 15 seconds still right? Kidney has a hard 20 second cool down.

I really don't get this change to be honest. Revealing strikes/kidney has been a thing for years now and it was pretty much the only reason rogues would spec into combat. Even when sub was dominant there were people that made combat work. Others have mentioned that reflection is a non issue because it is easy to kill, so people must be having a hard time eating an 8 second kidney followed by a 3 second garrote. Yeah, that is a long time to not be able to do anything but I really feel like if you get into that situation then you deserve to lose anyway.

PVP has undegone massive changes form each expansion, there is lots of abilities i could name that were balanced in previous expansions but broken in a game like wod, an 8 sec stun has no place in wod pvp.
And what do you mean "get into that situation" it requires no set up by the rogue and is on a short cd, your going to get hit by multiple 8 sec ks in an average game and we dont all have the luxury to play with ret palas to survive them.

[Tyrean]

I mean get into that situation that you will die in that 11 seconds without anything at all to counter it. If you are say a healer and you eat an 8 second kidney followed by a 3 second garrote and don't have any defensive abilities left, any peels from your team or any counter pressure to force the rogue to do something else then yes, you got into that situation and deserve to lose.

I don't think anyone worth their salt would just leave a rogue and a hunter for example to just sit on their healer and do nothing about it. I also don't think any healer would not know that the rogue wants to setup a red buff kidney/spree with their partner's burst and not be watching for it.

If you die to 8 second kidney, you were not going to win the game anyway.

[wheresmywoft]

I mean get into that situation that you will die in that 11 seconds without anything at all to counter it. If you are say a healer and you eat an 8 second kidney followed by a 3 second garrote and don't have any defensive abilities left, any peels from your team or any counter pressure to force the rogue to do something else then yes, you got into that situation and deserve to lose.

I don't think anyone worth their salt would just leave a rogue and a hunter for example to just sit on their healer and do nothing about it. I also don't think any healer would not know that the rogue wants to setup a red buff kidney/spree with their partner's burst and not be watching for it.

If you die to 8 second kidney, you were not going to win the game anyway.

But that's just it, you're forced to use defensives when they're not using offensives. You will die shortly after when they actually burst.

[PrinceDevilos]

Okay, so you have a single class that counters yours. You shouldn't cry about nerfing rets heals just because your team can't counter it. Pretty much every other composition can. Should I, as a ret paladin, cry about disc priests just because they counter me? No, that's stupid.

Did you just say Disc counters your class? Pallies have no weakness neither do DKS this is the problem... saying Disc is the counter to your class is invalid its a healing class with little dmg there is no way you should EVER die to one, however they are the single healing class i feel needs a fixin...

[Mentia]

Did you just say Disc counters your class? Pallies have no weakness neither do DKS this is the problem... saying Disc is the counter to your class is invalid its a healing class with little dmg there is no way you should EVER die to one, however they are the single healing class i feel needs a fixin...

1. Yes, priests do counter Paladins quite hard.
2. Paladins do have weaknesses and as do DKs
3. I never said that Paladins die to a priest. Priests don't need any fixing, people just need to L2P.

[Miko]

From lastnight's games I really didn't feel much of a difference. The dmg buff combat got vs the slightly smaller stun really isn't a big deal. 50% guile with reflection is more then enough to do in a player in 3s. I mean you bomb right on top of him with out a trinket and 200kish health, they are prob going to lose right then until you get over 2kish

[Schmeebs]

I mean get into that situation that you will die in that 11 seconds without anything at all to counter it. If you are say a healer and you eat an 8 second kidney followed by a 3 second garrote and don't have any defensive abilities left, any peels from your team or any counter pressure to force the rogue to do something else then yes, you got into that situation and deserve to lose.

I don't think anyone worth their salt would just leave a rogue and a hunter for example to just sit on their healer and do nothing about it. I also don't think any healer would not know that the rogue wants to setup a red buff kidney/spree with their partner's burst and not be watching for it.

If you die to 8 second kidney, you were not going to win the game anyway.

its not one 8 second kidney that kills you, its the 8 second kidney every time DR is up that gets you too far behind to keep up. Let alone the fact that rogues are incredibly hard to peel right now (Burst of speed making slows useless). The first Kidney doesn't kill you, neither does the second usually, but the constant pressure from it makes it extremely hard to keep up with healing (Let alone how hard it is to actually get a cast off if you have melee on you right now).

It was bad gameplay and needed to be nerfed. Next on the line should be 12s cooldown traps

[Saverem]

Now just need to nerf BoS and Rogues will be fine. Hell, you can even increase their damage some more to balance it out. BoS is just too ridiculous.

Remember back when stealthed Rogues actually SNEAKED around and thus moved at like 50-75% run speed? Yeah, apparently now a Rogue "sneak" is equivalent to the speed of a land mount...

[Drubomb]

yeah, i hate BoS on my rogue, but its obviously the best one in the tier currently. it needs to have a 20 sec cd or something, maybe cost more energy to make it not spammable.

edit: especially in flag bgs lol

[Gentlepenguin]

if a rogues capping flags on you it's a favor, ending the game early for your shit team.

[dwightyo39]

Sure.
But it does nothing to address the guaranteed death and unpeelable KS if the healer is out of CDs and Trinkets.

So if a player is out of defensive cds, with trinket on cooldown, and they eat another dpser's main offensive cooldown, they should live?

[Syh]

So if a player is out of defensive cds, with trinket on cooldown, and they eat another dpser's main offensive cooldown, they should live?

Even other Rogues admitted that the nerf was warranted... the game has changed since WoD and an 8s stun no longer had a place in the current game. Your damage was even buffed slightly to compensate as well. I see no problem here, let it go.

[Musta Kyy]

Warranted nerf, I wish they had nerf'd the survival hunter freezing trap CD as well.

Now also nerf feral self-healing and fix some things and I'll be happy.

Eh? Feral self healing is not great, rejuvenation ticks for 2-3k (less than recup) and it is dispellable, just like the instant healing touch buff.
Combat rogues have nearly double the representation compared to ferals in 3v3 at 2,2k+.

[dwightyo39]

Even other Rogues admitted that the nerf was warranted... the game has changed since WoD and an 8s stun no longer had a place in the current game. Your damage was even buffed slightly to compensate as well. I see no problem here, let it go.

You should read my post again. It wasn't about kidney shot. I figured KS would be toned down. I'm not upset about that at all.

[Syh]

You should read my post again. It wasn't about kidney shot. I figured KS would be toned down. I'm not upset about that at all.

Ah, yeah, I'm a bit tired. My bad.

[Rucati]

Yeah, that is a long time to not be able to do anything but I really feel like if you get into that situation then you deserve to lose anyway.

Wait, you deserve to lose if you let a Rogue use a 20 second CD spell on you and you don't have a trinket? That would be a viable argument if trinkets had a 20 second CD, but since that isn't the case that was kind of a stupid thing to say.

Did you just say Disc counters your class? Pallies have no weakness neither do DKS this is the problem... saying Disc is the counter to your class is invalid its a healing class with little dmg there is no way you should EVER die to one, however they are the single healing class i feel needs a fixin...

Actually Priests are very strong against Paladins, dispel destroys a lot of their off healing plus MD counters bubble. But considering you said that they're the only healing class that needs to be fixed, it's very apparent you don't know what you're talking about. Priests are the worst healer at the moment, it's not even much of a debate.

[Deleted]

meanwhile ret pallys can still lay on hands whoever they want, bubble themselves, bubble their teammates, remove snares, stun every 30 seconds and burst someone 100-0. But lets fix a stun on a class that really is no threat currently in arena or any other kind of pvp

At least they don't heal like 3 healers anymore. But I agree, Blizzard is a fan of invulnerability mechanics.
- Pallies: 1 complete, 1 against melee but also for mates
- Rogues: 1 complete vs Magic, 1 complete vs melee, (bleeds stay up)
- Hunters: 2 complete (dots remain, 2 due to charges)
- Mages: 2 complete (with reset 2)
- Druids: because lets face it, you need a countering comb (e.g. smokebomb) to kill something when a restro druid goes treeform.
And then some -90% or cheat death mechanics I don't know of.

It's awful how many combs on the lower end are simply based on "you can't kill us until we have our lame abilities done and we try to burst you before they end".

[dak1]

At least they don't heal like 3 healers anymore. But I agree, Blizzard is a fan of invulnerability mechanics.
- Pallies: 1 complete, 1 against melee but also for mates
- Rogues: 1 complete vs Magic, 1 complete vs melee, (bleeds stay up)
- Hunters: 2 complete (dots remain, 2 due to charges)
- Mages: 2 complete (with reset 2)
- Druids: because lets face it, you need a countering comb (e.g. smokebomb) to kill something when a restro druid goes treeform.
And then some -90% or cheat death mechanics I don't know of.

It's awful how many combs on the lower end are simply based on "you can't kill us until we have our lame abilities done and we try to burst you before they end".

Evasion is FAR from being an immunity against melee/physical damage.

[Tyrean]

Wait, you deserve to lose if you let a Rogue use a 20 second CD spell on you and you don't have a trinket? That would be a viable argument if trinkets had a 20 second CD, but since that isn't the case that was kind of a stupid thing to say.

No you deserve to lose if you don't have any options available to deal with it. You guys are talking like if you don't blow every spell when you get kidney that you auto die. Like somehow the rogue does INSANE damage every single kidney. Forgetting you have team mates, forgetting things like LoS, forgetting that rogues need cooldowns to do damage on their own, etc.

The whole point of arena is to force the other team into situations where they are taking damage when they can't deal with it. Be it through CC, cool down management, line of sight, etc. I am not sure any healer at all should be allowed to live should they just stand in the middle of the arena and PvE healbot. Come on.

[Rucati]

No you deserve to lose if you don't have any options available to deal with it. You guys are talking like if you don't blow every spell when you get kidney that you auto die. Like somehow the rogue does INSANE damage every single kidney. Forgetting you have team mates, forgetting things like LoS, forgetting that rogues need cooldowns to do damage on their own, etc.

The whole point of arena is to force the other team into situations where they are taking damage when they can't deal with it. Be it through CC, cool down management, line of sight, etc. I am not sure any healer at all should be allowed to live should they just stand in the middle of the arena and PvE healbot. Come on.

I mean... Do you even do arenas?

As a Priest, first Kidney I either trinket or Pain Supp or I die, next kidney I use whichever I didn't use first, third Kidney I die. Sometimes I die through pain supp, depends. Can't peel the Rogue because of Killing Spree. The only way it's possible to survive against it is if you have a Ret on your team, which will buy you a significant amount of time. Can't LoS while you're in an 8 second stun, your teammates can't peel during Bomb, Killing Spree, or if they're CC'd (which they will be against any good team), and Rogues can do significant damage without CDs if they know what they're doing. Isn't unusual for my Rogue partner to top damage or at least be very very close in medium-long games.

It changes with other healers, Paladins will have an easier time, as will Monks, but Shamans and Priests just fall down. Druids can also fall down depending on what the Rogue's partner is. Trying to defend an 8 second stun just makes you look silly, to be honest.