Disc priests don't just spam PW:S, stop the ignorance

[Floopa]

Then why did you quote someone who is obviously arguing against such a notion with a countering response if you weren't trying to say that?

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Why does this matter when Disc is the only healer without a viable spammable raid heal? Our single target spells should be stronger as a result because our power budget didn't go to multi-target healing for the most part.

what's the holy paladin "viable spammable raid heal?" where's the druid "viable spammable raid heal?"

[emni]

what's the holy paladin "viable spammable raid heal?" where's the druid "viable spammable raid heal?"

Wild Growth might not be spammable, but it is a good example of the type of spell that disc lacks. I suspect empowered PoH is supposed to fill a similar role, but its CD is far too long and honestly it doesn't do enough healing to warrant stressing over. I personally use it because I'd go mad only spamming shields, but I've seen discs doing awesome without ever paying attention to it. Druids who never use WG can't say the same.

[Noradin]

Then you might want to learn to format your posts better rather than go on a pointless rant.

Disc core spells all scale better due to how they interact with Mastery - 1.6% per point for PW:S and CoW together with a 2.4% scaling for DA. Add to this that Disc probably scales better with regen due to the interaction between BT + Haste.

Ah, but I do not think that tibit is enough of a proof - why would it? Other classes have additional scaling factors, too, same goes for the BT part. You can't just pick a single factor out of a complex term and claim that makes this term of a higher order than some other term you didn't even present. Thus you would have to either present a nice complete analytical model for the most important spells or give some statistical evidence. If you cannot show that the whole expression is of higher order you'd have to show it has higher prefactors in the leading terms. (If Blizzard did their job the first will fail and the second will be ambivalent and call for a lot of additional data to be taken into account or respectively reveal their proportionality factor for the 'worth' ov absorbs versus healing.)

Again the same point as before: Either 'gear makes up for it' - then balancing failed -, or it does not, then you should not reapeat it. But you (who repeat this over and over again) do not ever present any proof anyway, so please drop it it has no substance

[PosPosPos]

Wild Growth might not be spammable, but it is a good example of the type of spell that disc lacks. I suspect empowered PoH is supposed to fill a similar role, but its CD is far too long and honestly it doesn't do enough healing to warrant stressing over. I personally use it because I'd go mad only spamming shields, but I've seen discs doing awesome without ever paying attention to it. Druids who never use WG can't say the same.

Wild Growth and Holy Radiance is a lot more spammable and efficient than non-EAA PoH. Also happens to heal a lot more per cast and per point of mana which makes it a good choice for AoE healing.

Also, Paladins already do multi-target healing with beacons, so this entire line of argument is already settled.

[Rorschachs]

Don't compare Prayer of Healing and Holy Radiance to Wild Growth please, every class is different..
I also like how viable Prayer of Healing for Disc is right now.
No reason to go back to spamming it ever again; because it was almost as dull as spamming PW:S if not worse.

Wild Growth and Holy Radiance is a lot more spammable and efficient than non-EAA PoH. Also happens to heal a lot more per cast and per point of mana which makes it a good choice for AoE healing.

Also, Paladins already do multi-target healing with beacons, so this entire line of argument is already settled.

Holy Radiance is as spammable as Prayer of Healing.
The reason paladins spam Holy Radiance during Infesting Spores (which is the 1 phase of 1 fight in Highmaul) is because they don't have an alternative.

[ceddya]

Again the same point as before: Either 'gear makes up for it' - then balancing failed -, or it does not, then you should not reapeat it. But you (who repeat this over and over again) do not ever present any proof anyway, so please drop it it has no substance

Your whole argument was that gear won't make up for the nerf. I'm telling you that Mastery will compensate somewhat due to the fact that it scales PW:S incredibly well (1.6% is possibly the highest scaling). I don't know what you bring up the issue of balancing, because that's not what my reply was directed at.

If they provide some I will gladly look at it and respond with my work as appropriate, but I will not support the bad habit of shifting the burden of proof away from the party making a claim.

Where is your work then?

[Sorissa]

You are missing the point.

A good Discipline will to do all of those things. A good Discipline priest will do a lot of healing.

A bad Discipline priest can kick back and just randomly throw out PW:S. A bad Discipline priest will still do a lot of healing.

This is the problem other healers have with Discipline. It is also the problem that some Discipline players have with Discipline. We are far, far too reliant on one very powerful spell that is easy to use. Could you imagine if a DPS spec were able to do competitive damage by almost ignoring all abilities aside from one of the easiest to use?.

You know, the more I read your posts the more I like you, reasonable person.

It's just very little decision making, most situations you just hit PWS. Nobody goes "oh I could cast heal here", because heal is a waste of time in a raid; or a "I'll use holy nova here" because holy nova is also useless when you can cast PWS on the move as well. So many spells on our kit are useless, not situational, but flat out useless.

[PosPosPos]

Holy Radiance is as spammable as Prayer of Healing.
The reason paladins spam Holy Radiance during Infesting Spores (which is the 1 phase of 1 fight in Highmaul) is because they don't have an alternative.

Holy Radiance is used quite a lot on fights that aren't Brackenspore. Look at any top logs of even Mythic Imperator.

Sure, in terms of mana constraints, Holy Radiance has similar costs attached to PoH, but HR is a lot higher on effective HPS than Holy Light(even with double beacons, which makes it even more broken) so it's an actual option that holy pallies can choose if they need stronger multi-target healing.

This isn't the case with PoH as 0 overheal PoH(lol) is only marginally stronger than even nerfed PW:S.

Even without using HR, you can just blindly spam HL as a holy paladin and pretend you are a raid healer while keeping tanks topped off 24/7 without running oom. Yeah, that takes a lot of skill /sarcasm.

In any case, the point made here is other healer classes are equally brain-dead with their rotation so the entire premise that disc = braindead and should be nerfed is hideously flawed to begin with, so don't even start shifting goalposts here.

[laalipop]

In any case, the point made here is other healer classes are equally brain-dead with their rotation so the entire premise that disc = braindead and should be nerfed is hideously flawed to begin with, so don't even start shifting goalposts here.

This. Our numbers are basically fine, which leads back to us needing better, more skill based mechanics to separate the good disc from the bad.

[Noradin]

Your whole argument was that gear won't make up for the nerf. I'm telling you that Mastery will compensate somewhat due to the fact that it scales PW:S incredibly well (1.6% is possibly the highest scaling). I don't know what you bring up the issue of balancing, because that's not what my reply was directed at.

My point was that the statement 'gear will make up for the nerf' is repeated without proof (by more and more posters without thinking) and that if it was true it was a sign that blizzard did not nerf enough. Then I explained why.

And im telling you that picking a single factor out of a term is not enough to get the combined rank and leading factors of the whole expression, which is what matters for scaling.
If that result is high enough as to still have gear 'make up for the nerf' then this rank and prefactors are still too high. If gear makes up for the nerf (compared to other specs) then the blizzard balancing team did not do its job.

Nowhere did I state if the statement was actually true or not - checking and presenting the results would take too much time right now, so I abstained. We will see anyway.

Where is your work then?

My post was entirely based on what was posted here and all work is description the logical conclusion I drew from that - it is in the post you quoted, since I did keep it independet of any nummerical values I do not need to present any.

Also, what more than a quote and a statement is needed as 'work' to point out the lack of proof in a post?

[Deleted]

no-one cares disc is easy to play. people have an issue with disc because it's overpowered. simple as that.

I like how this post simply got ignored. Ppl honestly think absorbs are generally not completely superior to raw healing? Not only do we act like these "heals" are equivalent to actual healing but usually a healer with output cooldowns generate the same hps as disc/pally but they also have aura and barrier.
I do think introducing heavy absorb healing back in the day was a mistake and ever since it's fucking up healing, encounters, and designing encounters. The failure is evident since lk hc but I guess backing out now is not an option. So let's just see how they introduce a new healing system next blizzcon that's supposed to change EVERYTHING :O

[worcester]

So let's just see how they introduce a new healing system next blizzcon that's supposed to change EVERYTHING :O

did i miss something?

[anon5123]

did i miss something?

Probably making a joke about how Blizzard always says they're going to change EVERYTHING with healing, and yet that never happens.

Cataclysm - They boasted "triage", and yet that never happened. By the 2nd raid tier it was right back to "top everyone off or they're going to die".
MoP - Same as Cata.
WoD - They buffed our healthpools, once more stating reasons like "triage" and "no more big damage spikes"...and yet there's still big damage spikes and healers are compelled to top everyone off or they're going to die.

[Deleted]

Cataclysm - They boasted "triage", and yet that never happened. By the 2nd raid tier it was right back to "top everyone off or they're going to die".
MoP - Same as Cata.
WoD - They buffed our healthpools, once more stating reasons like "triage" and "no more big damage spikes"...and yet there's still big damage spikes and healers are compelled to top everyone off or they're going to die.

Cataclysm had triage for T11 and my druid felt that T12 was in the right place.
I still don't understand how Blizzard managed to mess up WoD healing. They were really talking the talk before release and actions such as doubling health pools, talking about people not sitting at 100% seemed promising. But nope.

[Noradin]

Cataclysm had triage for T11 and my druid felt that T12 was in the right place.
I still don't understand how Blizzard managed to mess up WoD healing. They were really talking the talk before release and actions such as doubling health pools, talking about people not sitting at 100% seemed promising. But nope.

I'm not surprised, it turned out exactly as I predicted (in this forum) :P

[Rorschachs]

Holy Radiance is used quite a lot on fights that aren't Brackenspore. Look at any top logs of even Mythic Imperator.

Sure, in terms of mana constraints, Holy Radiance has similar costs attached to PoH, but HR is a lot higher on effective HPS than Holy Light(even with double beacons, which makes it even more broken) so it's an actual option that holy pallies can choose if they need stronger multi-target healing.

This isn't the case with PoH as 0 overheal PoH(lol) is only marginally stronger than even nerfed PW:S.

Even without using HR, you can just blindly spam HL as a holy paladin and pretend you are a raid healer while keeping tanks topped off 24/7 without running oom. Yeah, that takes a lot of skill /sarcasm.

Just FYI : While it doesn't state it on the tooltips; Holy Prism, Light of Dawn, Holy Radiance and Light's Hammer still only transfer %15 of their healing to the Beacon targets.

[ZiggyZ]

most classes, when played properly, will have a similar checklist....let people whine all they want...just keep healing XD