Progression for the solo / small group player

[Mirishka]

Again, that's part of the objection. It's not an interesting content model, it's not engaging, and yes it's VERY reliant on RNG which means some characters make off like a bandit (My Pally that I don't even play who is 647 now) while others go weeks without getting much.

Plus it's literally the defintion of "Log in and have epics appear" so I don't know why the anti-entitlement crew isn't jumping at ideas to shift the rewards from Garrisonville to something that takes more effort. Instead they're so caught up in being contrary to any improvements because any improvement must be "entitlement" somehow, even when the improvement shifts the rewards away from "I log in and get loot".

I don't get the 'I play an MMO to play solo' mentality. My husband's best friend was like that... played WoW for years, but hated the idea of playing with people and couldn't stand that he had to do stuff with other players in order to get gear.

So if you don't want to play with others... why an MMO? Why not Skyrim or Dragon Age or something? I don't mean to sound snarky (really, I don't) but that's like going to Pizza Hut and insisting they make you a hamburger.

You signed up to play a subscription-based MMO. The second 'M' in MMO stands for 'multiplayer'. There is only so much they can do to appeal to the solo-minded people. Garrisons are perfect for progressing toon that doesn't want to raid and such, but then people want to say "It's not an interesting content model, it's not engaging" - it really smacks of there's no pleasing you.

They can't make solo even level raids (nor should they) and anything they build for 'solo' play that adds competitive or even solid gear is just something else the min-maxers will whine that they're forced to do for World/server firsts.

If you're going to play the game in a way that is counter to its intended playstyle, counter to the systems built in to progress our characters... that isn't Blizzard's fault, and it isn't something they should be expected to 'fix' anymore than Pizza Hut should be expected to fix their lack of hamburgers.

I am not saying its wrong to ask for more solo options (more options doesn't hurt anyone) but to speak of the game like it is flawed for not doing more than it already does to accommodate 'I hate raids, I have PvP, I hate garrisons, I hate playing with other people' types?

I disagree with that entirely.

[ro9ue]

I don't get the 'I play an MMO to play solo' mentality. My husband's best friend was like that... played WoW for years, but hated the idea of playing with people and couldn't stand that he had to do stuff with other players in order to get gear.

So if you don't want to play with others... why an MMO? Why not Skyrim or Dragon Age or something? I don't mean to sound snarky (really, I don't) but that's like going to Pizza Hut and insisting they make you a hamburger.

You signed up to play a subscription-based MMO. The second 'M' in MMO stands for 'multiplayer'. There is only so much they can do to appeal to the solo-type player. Garrisons are perfect for progressing toon that doesn't want to raid and such, but then people want to say "It's not an interesting content model, it's not engaging" - it really smacks of there's no pleasing you.

They can't make solo even level raids (nor should they) and anything they add 'solo' that adds competitive or even solid gear is just something else the min-maxers will whine that they're forced to do for World/server firsts.

If you're going to play the game in a way that is counter to its intended playstyle, counter to the systems built in to progress our characters... that isn't Blizzard's fault, and it isn't something they should be expected to 'fix' anymore than Pizza Hut should be expected to fix their lack of hamburgers.

I am not saying its wrong to ask for more solo options (more options doesn't hurt anyone) but to speak of the game like it is flawed for not doing more than it already does to accommodate 'I hate raids, I have PvP, I hate garrisons, I hate playing with other people' types?

I disagree with that entirely.

Why do you assume if you don't want to raid you don't want to play with others? Heroic Dungeons, group Apexis Dailies and Garrison Invasions are all examples of cool casual multiplayer content, but only one (invasions) has good rewards and sadly you can only get them once per week.

And if you want to solo you can do Apexis dailies (the solo version) and even solo a Garrison Invasion but it would be less efficient, thus encouraging at least pugging.

[Baconeggcheese]

I'm so lost. :O

I think its awful, but the raid quality loot you get is only proportionate to 1 difficulty above what you've cleared, and you can only get 1 piece every 2 weeks maybe if you put the work into your garrison.

Beyond that the rest of the loot garrisons give is not raid quality (655+), so it doesn't really offend me.

It's kinda lame, but by the time you get your garrison to a point where you're consistently getting 645's from it you could have geared up through alternate methods much much faster so meh. If it was handing out 645's right away for minimal time or effort it would be a much different thing.

I mean, you get 660's for throwing your face at a few arena matches each week. Its hardly effort.

[Xjev]

TL;DR - A non raider should be able to slowly increase their characters power through 'lesser' activities. The game should be played in all ways, not just one.

Remember what happened when they added daily quests and rep grinds? People somehow start to think thats something everyone SHOULD do.

[DFu4ever]

Do you guys actually understand how the Garrison mission system works? It sounds like you don't.

I only raid LFR. The best piece of gear the mission system will give me, very rarely, is Normal raid quality. If I downed 15 Normal bosses, it would switch to a Heroic raid quality piece. If I down 15 legit Heroic bosses, then I'd get Mythic. I'm not going to see a piece of gear from a Garrison that is higher than Normal raid level unless I start actually raiding.

Stop making it sound like us 'casuals' are getting fucking Mythic gear from garrisons. That is not happening, and if you are one of the people claiming it is, then perhaps you shouldn't open your mouth until you actually know what the hell you're talking about.

[hollafame]

It's a lotto we, and everyone else in the game, gets to play on the side. It isn't really progression, although it can supplement it.

- - - Updated - - -



Your point doesn't even hold water. Those means to get gear are ways everyone uses to get some gear. What people are asking for is a gameplay type that would exist side by side with raiding and PvP as another alternative for gameplay driven gear progression. Why some of you keep ignoring this is beyond me. And LFR is NOT a replacement for this. LFR is a fix to allow this third type of player to use raid content to sort of advance. The problem is the gear from LFR is garbage compared to what it was back in MOP, but the normal raiding crowd bitched and moaned until it got nerfed into near uselessness.

There is literally no reason raiding and pvp have to be the two sole ways to advance your character from a gear standpoint. If you design solo content that is as difficult on the individual as any one individual in a raid, then there is no reason they shouldn't deserve comparable gear. As I said before, do something similar to Brawler's Guild.

As was explained, apexis dailies/heroic dungeons/crafted gear/garrison missions already provide means of progressing your characters ilvl outside of raiding. People just aren't satisfied with the ilvl.

People are asking for progression paths in gear that can be done outside of raiding with the same equivalent ilvl.

WoW has never been about that -- ever. You're asking them to change the gearing paradigm by having them provide awards to individuals as to those who put in the effort to group/coordinate/execute strategy in order to kill something.

They will never shift their focus away from raiding or instanced PvP because that is their core gameplay.

If what WoW has provided isn't fun to you, then you should re-consider playing a different game rather than asking for a game to change the way it's meant to be played.

To use an analogy, what you're asking for is a game like CoD or LoL to provide the same awards you would get via online by methods of offline play without having to interact or socialize with others which would be to a lot of people -- unfair and would make them lose interest in playing at all.

[DFu4ever]

They will never shift their focus away from raiding or instanced PvP because that is their core gameplay.

Disregarding PvP, as it really is entirely separate...

Raiding is only WoW's core gameplay because the devs are as stubborn about raiding as raiders are. Raiding is not the 'core gameplay' for the vast majority of players in this game. Hell, LFR had to be created to keep raid development afloat because not enough people do regular raiding to justify the cost of developing a lot of raids. Raiding may be WoW's 'core gameplay', but slowly they are learning that the focus at the endgame needs to start shifting a bit. LFR is a bandaid on a much bigger problem. Creating alternative progression will fix the problem.

And raiders will bitch and moan like they have whenever something challenges the phantom supremacy of their chosen style of gameplay.

To use an analogy, what you're asking for is a game like CoD or LoL to provide the same awards you would get via online by methods of offline play without having to interact or socialize with others which would be to a lot of people -- unfair and would make them lose interest in playing at all.

If every raider in this game vanished overnight, this game would still thrive for another decade. As much as you guys like to think you are the lifeblood of WoW, the numbers have never supported that. Introducing skilled solo content should give appropriate rewards based on the skill required to achieve the reward. 10 man gear isn't different than 25 man these days, so why the hell would solo gear be any different if the individual skill required for a fight was comparable to what a typical raider does? Every raider outside of the leader is playing the same game of button whack-a-mole and don't step in the fire that every other player in WoW is playing.

I'm not even saying that solo progression has to reach all the way up to Mythic ilvl, but it sure as hell shouldn't be given scraps. Normal and Heroic difficulties would be fine.

[Otimus]

What the....

Did you even read what I posted? Most of us here - indeed the VERY POST that you quoted - have been arguing AGAINST the current system that lets you not interact with anyone else, sit in your garrison, and have epics appear in your mailbox. It's the very definition of a "solo game", it's exactly what the raiding/anti-entitlement crowd have been arguing against for years. Yet when people post saying that it's not a very good system, you guys come out and disagree with us.

This is so incredibly frustrating to me, I don't even understand how I can post something and have someone quote it back to me in a disagreeing tone while agreeing with what I said.

Welcome to how I feel any time I say anything on here related to this subject

Except in my case! People just generally don't respond to anything I say!

The way I see it, though, what I posted earlier made so much sense, no one even cared to reply to it because they won't get any fun arguing about it

[Tech Priest Bojangles]

Yeah, sometimes I get frustrated because it feels like once someone labels you as "The opposition", they start arguing against YOU rather than what you're saying, even if you agree with them!

That's EXACTLY what some of the people in this thread do.
You're better off just putting them on ignore because otherwise you're just wasting your time typing to them. Assholes that don't want anyone to have nice things aren't worth talking to anyways.

[Macaquerie]

Disregarding PvP, as it really is entirely separate...

Raiding is only WoW's core gameplay because the devs are as stubborn about raiding as raiders are. Raiding is not the 'core gameplay' for the vast majority of players in this game. Hell, LFR had to be created to keep raid development afloat because not enough people do regular raiding to justify the cost of developing a lot of raids. Raiding may be WoW's 'core gameplay', but slowly they are learning that the focus at the endgame needs to start shifting a bit. LFR is a bandaid on a much bigger problem. Creating alternative progression will fix the problem.

And raiders will bitch and moan like they have whenever something challenges the phantom supremacy of their chosen style of gameplay.



If every raider in this game vanished overnight, this game would still thrive for another decade. As much as you guys like to think you are the lifeblood of WoW, the numbers have never supported that. Introducing skilled solo content should give appropriate rewards based on the skill required to achieve the reward. 10 man gear isn't different than 25 man these days, so why the hell would solo gear be any different if the individual skill required for a fight was comparable to what a typical raider does? Every raider outside of the leader is playing the same game of button whack-a-mole and don't step in the fire that every other player in WoW is playing.

I'm not even saying that solo progression has to reach all the way up to Mythic ilvl, but it sure as hell shouldn't be given scraps. Normal and Heroic difficulties would be fine.

If that's what you're looking for you can try out Brawler's Guild, or Challenge Modes, or even Endless Proving Grounds, all of which provide a challenge that draws on a separate skill set than what's required in Mythic raiding. Sure they don't give an awesome gear reward, but they don't have a high gear requirement either and you'll end up with plenty of shinies to show off that many raiders won't have.

Raiding is at its core all about preparation and coordination, individual player skill doesn't matter nearly as much as patience, resolve, and teamwork to accomplish your goals. Claiming to be a superlative player just based on your ability to mash buttons quickly sort of misses the point of the entire game.

[Baconeggcheese]

It just doesn't make sense, plus it's too RNG and time gated. Not to mention it's way too good for people just playing 5 minutes a day, but potentially near-useless for people who get unlucky. I'd much rather be out DOING stuff, even on alts!

Except you need to put in X hours to get your garrison to a point where you can get these things for the 5 minutes spent a day. And again by the time you get to that point you could have easily out-geared the need to have any 645 pieces by simply playing the game the way it was intended.

This is why there isn't any outrage, because the only way you end up even using that 645 gear is if its on a character that you're putting no real effort into its progression. Otherwise you end up out gearing those missions before you get them. and even WF that gear isn't as good as what you get from raids, so its not really a big deal.

if it gave out 655's as frequently as it gives out 645's there'd be a somewhat bigger issue.

Edit: Indeed, perhaps there has been a lot of miscommunication in this thread. Seem to have different people arguing for different things, and people replying to the wrong posters with different concerns. I think many of us don't even disagree that much.

Which is why I gave you like 6 chances to speak your piece directly to me when you chose not to 6 times.