Need help for our Sub-Rogue

[Deleted]

Hi guys and girls,

we have an Sub-rogue in our raidcomp.
Yesterday he came to us with the question whats wrong with his DPS.
We digged through the logs for nearly an hour and at the end we are not really at a fine point.
First of all the data:
Log from last night:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/c2hxaHgJmkNVbr89
The rogues name is Axei.
Armory:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Axei/advanced
What we could find out:
He is using only small Flask and no pots.
Equip is bad (esp the mh and both trinkets)
Uptime on Rupture and Hemoraghe could be better.

Last point was due to the fact that he didnt know about pandemic (he skipped MoP and came back at the start of WoD). We told him and he tries to get a better uptime on both debuffs.
Equip is a problem for itself. He tries to forge a dagger, but he has not that much time at all. And in our raid we didnt get a single dagger since the start.

Question is:
Are these 3 points the only points and they together bring down his DPS or are we overseeing something?

[LilSaihah]

I'm not sure if I'm reading this log right, but it looks like he has 70% Slice'n'Dice uptime on Ko'ragh. That right there is a huge red flag. His SnD uptime on Butcher in comparison is 99%.
Mainhand has a pretty big effect on his DPS, yes. That doesn't explain or make up for bad uptimes, though
Subpar enchants.

It looks to me like he needs to get practice in on maintaining his rotation while moving. My 2c

[Torima]

Not using a proper flask or prepot hurts along with none in combat, there is a lot of damage in the opener for sub. Besides the things that you have already mentioned about uptimes and gear.

1. Should be using the glyph of vanish along with subterfuge to gain more find weakness up time, at least for now unless it gets fixed again.
2. In the level 100 talent row using Shadow Reflection talent instead of venom rush.

[Worpig]

I'm most a Combat rogue but I use Sub for Butcher/Kargath/Ko'ragh however things may have changed.

His opener should be Pre-pot ->Premeditation -> SnD -> Garrote -> Ambush -> Ambush -> Rupture -> Shadow Reflection -> Shadow Dance. He'll have to use Slice and Dice during Shadow Dance but delaying Shadow Dance at the beginning to refresh SnD is a DPS lost (atleast in my experience). Make sure to keep Find Weakness on as long as possible, make sure no to clip it. Before Vanishing try to pool a bit of energy so you can get 3 more Ambushes off. Hemorrhage isn't really a DPS lost or gain if kept up entire time but make sure to always use it for switching targets or if Rupture is about to fall off and lack the 5 combo points to replace it in time.

The opener seems to be the key to Sub rogues, while making sure Rupture/Slice and Dice have 98%+ uptimes AND Find Weakness up as much as possible which he appears to do well as it is.

[Deleted]

wow, theres quite some things going wrong on him

- Very bad slice 'n dice uptime (70%)
- No pots (makes a hughe difference, esp. on the lower ilvls)
- Big flasks cost almost no extra fee, make him get those
- he used only 2 shadowdances
- same with shadow reflection (make him macro it together with shadowdance)
- as you said, his rupture uptime is beyond bad with only 50%
- seems like he isn't using vanish to do additional ambushes
- also premediation needs to be used with every vanish

hth

[Zampster]

I'm most a Combat rogue but I use Sub for Butcher/Kargath/Ko'ragh however things may have changed.

His opener should be Pre-pot ->Premeditation -> SnD -> Garrote -> Ambush -> Ambush -> Rupture -> Shadow Reflection -> Shadow Dance.

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/subtlet...lities#opening

->

3 seconds before the pull, cast Premeditation +Slice and Dice.
1 second before the pull, use your Draenic Agility Potion and Tricks of Trade on Maintank.
Cast (Shadowstep+) Garrote.
Cast Shadow Reflection and use on-use trinkets and racials at the same time.
Cast Ambush (if Subterfuge is talented).
Apply Rupture.
Cast Shadow Dance.

[Deleted]

on top of the poor rotation uptime he has two items with multistrike /thread

tell him either to get a bucketload of weak auras going, or to reroll .. he might also want to try craft a dagger.. or atleast get the lfr/normal one from korgoth

[Jarvid]

Gombado is right: gear is not "bad" (actually mine is worse in regards to ilvl ), but has terrible stats for Sub.
Add this to the other things said in this thread and you should have an explaination for his dps

[Mathera]

Quite honestly, with his MH + OH combo, he should turn combat a combat will be better for single target and cleave (40 ilvls matter) however when he gets a weapon he should set up weakauras that does these (I could pm my own strings):

Rupture - Does not exist on target or less than 8 seconds remain
Slice and Dice - Does not exist on player or less than 12 seconds remain
Shadow dance duration and cooldown trackers
Master of Subtlety duration tracker (using eviscerate in last second between 3-5 cp is a dps gain
Hemorrhage debuff tracker
Find Weakness on target duration tracker
Energy bar that is not at the furthest corner of the screen
Cooldown tracker for vanish and prepration, however what I did with major cooldowns is making a bartender bar, enlarging it and putting the cds in the bars, saves me the hassle of making WA for it :P

Read some guides, the IV guide will make him improve a lot, and he should stop being lazy and enchant the ring, use proper flasks and potions, he has skinning which he does not use, he might aswell take alchemy and make his herb garden grow fireweeds.

Aside from all those subtlety spec has a lot of subtleties, I didn't bother to check logs but saving 90ish energy before going into SD (and SR should be macroed, check icy-veins for the macro) and vanish would make him cast more ambushes. Also, during the SD he should make sure to use ambush at the last second so it will refresh Find Weakness, getting off 1 more eviscerate during FW matters A LOT

Also, he can save some CP's with anticipation before going into SD so he will be able to use more finishers with FW and since SR is used together, 1 more finisher pretty much means 2 more finishers during that.

But really, switch the weapons and go combat until getting HC Ko'ragh weapon.

[Mormolyce]

Tell him to play Assass or Combat. Sub is excessively complicated and not tolerant of sub-optimal play.

[Nialyah]

I've played sub pve for the better part of MoP which was quite rare at the time of fotm combat.

There are the basics such as knowing your stats of choice, multistrike, mastery e.g. The opener is a bit tricky but with Honor Amongst Thieves (HaT) giving combo points from heals, I always ask a WW monk for example to heal me pre fight for 5cp (+5anticipation).

It seems like he has a hard time controlling his uptimes and I think it's due to bad positioning of unitframes. Personally I have centered most information I need to the middle of the screen so I can stay on top of everything that goes on on the encounter while knowing my combo points, my buffs and enemy debuffs. I use IceHUD and RoguePowerBars which I find nicer compared to weakauras.

Say you dont get heals pre fight you should know the pre 6.0 start:
Have your raidleader give you at min 10sec pulltimer, at 10 go into stealth and use premed and leave stealth again asap. At 1-2 sec left slice n dice + prepot (+trinkets if any) and go into stealth. Open with garrote and follow up with ambush (subterfuge talent). He should be watching 2 things now of great importance: Slice and Dice (when will it run out) and Find Weakness. Hemo once, else backstab up to 5. Rupture on 5 combo points, and always refresh rupture over eviscerate. Slice and Dice must never be lost even if you dont have 5 combo points. Watch your find weakness uptime as you want to refresh it (by doing ambush) when it reaches 1-2 seconds left with either Shadow Dance or Vanish into Ambush. When using Shadow Dance you want to have slice and dice and rupture refreshed so that you can focus on only doing ambush and eviscerate during find weakness.
I did more dps at ilvl 595 so I'm sure he can improve if he just remembers that his core dps lies in the white damage (melee) which is affected by SnD (rogue 101 since vanilla) and rupture up time means a lot. Extending your find weakness uptime and doing as many eviscerates is the key to higher dps

Bonus: Night Elves can ambush from Shadowmeld for extended Find Weakness (oh yeah )

[Deleted]

First of all thanks for all the answers.
I will speak to him today again.
We hope we get the dagger to drop at tuesday. (pray to rng)

[spenzer]

Say you dont get heals pre fight you should know the pre 6.0 start:
Have your raidleader give you at min 10sec pulltimer, at 10 go into stealth and use premed and leave stealth again asap. At 1-2 sec left slice n dice + prepot (+trinkets if any) and go into stealth.

why leave stealth? why not just prepot in stealth?