Haste for 2H Frost

[Piz813]

How much Haste should we be looking to get? I understand with Ret Pallies, after 15% it becomes useless... Is there a softcap to aim for? Or just stack it until another stat becomes more valuable in the future?

Pizz Skywall-US

I have all MS enchants and gems due to playing UH more but I am liking 2H Frost more and more this xpac. I have the H Helm off Kargath and a il630 that both have Haste and Versatility. In total I have 13XX rating in that item set. I also read the thread on PL+NP for 2H frost and just makes me wanna go Frost even more! Cause god forbid these tanks leave the boss in my Defile. I like BoS and bank all BT charges and ERW for it to last as long as possible but hit FS on occasion and ruin it...

Thanks in advance. No, I did not run a SimC on my character. Just wondering if there is a Haste sweet spot or just get as much as possible

[mostdeadlygeist]

General consensus says it's best to get ~1000 haste, then go multistrike. At 1000 haste we're sitting at around 50%+ haste with icy talons, so during lust you would be at cap anyways so anything extra is devalued. Plus, you're going to be gcd capped any faster than that anyways.

[Piz813]

General consensus says it's best to get ~1000 haste, then go multistrike. At 1000 haste we're sitting at around 50%+ haste with icy talons, so during lust you would be at cap anyways so anything extra is devalued. Plus, you're going to be gcd capped any faster than that anyways.

OK thank you

hope this helps others too

[Schizoide]

The last time I looked at this haste was a poor stat for 2H frost, but I just simmed again today with 603-24 and it is the top secondary stat for the sub-spec. That's a nice surprise. Probably due to using BRF gear with set bonuses combined with the icy talons and overall haste buffs.

The T17M profile has 1350 haste rating and it remains the top secondary stat. So there either is no breakpoint where you want to switch to MS or we won't hit it until 6.2.

Note that even the T17M 2H frost profile is not GCD-capped. It's starting to get close, though. Next raid tier will do it. At that point haste will definitely hit a soft cap. Unknown whether that will devalue it sufficiently to drop below top secondary stat, that's a question for 6 months from now.

[Grakey]

I'm currently 679 and haste is still my best stat by a fairly large margin.

[Deleted]

General consensus says it's best to get ~1000 haste, then go multistrike. At 1000 haste we're sitting at around 50%+ haste with icy talons, so during lust you would be at cap anyways so anything extra is devalued. Plus, you're going to be gcd capped any faster than that anyways.

Stop right there. Almost everything you said is just wrong, and someone already took your advice. Great job. I'm currently at ~1400 haste, still not above 50% and nowhere near GCD capped, not even during bloodlust. 1000 haste is a nice and round number, but simply not true.

[Piz813]

Stop right there. Almost everything you said is just wrong, and someone already took your advice. Great job. I'm currently at ~1400 haste, still not above 50% and nowhere near GCD capped, not even during bloodlust. 1000 haste is a nice and round number, but simply not true.

OK so just stack it till T18 then'?

[Started]

Most likely will not see haste cap until BRF. Sim it, but right now MS and haste are very close, with haste being better.

[Schizoide]

I literally just posted about that. It won't happen in BRF.

[foxes]

My character (foxes-thrall) Sims haste a bit higher but I found in real world testing that multistrike was still increasing my DPS more. This may be entirely based on RNG but I gave it a few tries on diffenernt bosses and difficulties

[Deleted]

So I was sitting on around 1600 haste (cant remember exactly) and thinking that it cant be the best I decided to run some simcrafts and see what my statweights were. It favoured Multi a bit over haste at this point (2.59 Multi > 2.32 Haste).
After re-geming and re-enchanting I now have 1210 haste and 1168 Multi with weights of 2.53 Hate and 2.51 Multi.
So it seems that multi takes over haste (only by a minimal amount) around the 1250-1300 mark.
However this experiment has only increased my dpse by about 30. Will see how it performs in real game.

Hopefully this information is useful for someone.

[Deleted]

So I was sitting on around 1600 haste (cant remember exactly) and thinking that it cant be the best I decided to run some simcrafts and see what my statweights were. It favoured Multi a bit over haste at this point (2.59 Multi > 2.32 Haste).
After re-geming and re-enchanting I now have 1210 haste and 1168 Multi with weights of 2.53 Hate and 2.51 Multi.
So it seems that multi takes over haste (only by a minimal amount) around the 1250-1300 mark.
However this experiment has only increased my dpse by about 30. Will see how it performs in real game.

Hopefully this information is useful for someone.

With 1638 haste I still sim it higher than multistrike. Here's the sim results & my stats:



Maybe it has something to do with my incredibly low multistrike.

[mostdeadlygeist]

Stop right there. Almost everything you said is just wrong, and someone already took your advice. Great job. I'm currently at ~1400 haste, still not above 50% and nowhere near GCD capped, not even during bloodlust. 1000 haste is a nice and round number, but simply not true.

Uh, no. You're wrong if you think you're not at 50% haste. You're not factoring in Icy Talons + Unholy Aura which gives us 25% haste right off the bat (it might even be 35% since Icy Talons also says it adds 10% haste on top of the extra 20% attack speed). I'm at 1082 haste and am at over 55% haste. Unless I haven't been in the loop and haste is being reported incorrectly on armory and elsewhere then that's what I'm going off of.

Factor in typical latency--especially during lust, and you're not taking advantage of the added haste except for auto attacks. People who follow sims as if they're the golden word aren't factoring in that they aren't robots who will utilize the haste perfectly and don't experience server lag. You have to use your own common sense that will make you better, aka multistrike beyond 1000. If you aren't capped during lust you aren't looking at a swing timer. You can squeeze off maybe 1.5 strikes each auto.

[scorpious1109]

For what it's worth, Mr. Robot now has me re-rolling all my MS enchants to Haste.

[Deleted]

Uh, no. You're wrong if you think you're not at 50% haste. You're not factoring in Icy Talons + Unholy Aura which gives us 25% haste right off the bat (it might even be 35% since Icy Talons also says it adds 10% haste on top of the extra 20% attack speed). I'm at 1082 haste and am at over 55% haste. Unless I haven't been in the loop and haste is being reported incorrectly on armory and elsewhere then that's what I'm going off of.

Factor in typical latency--especially during lust, and you're not taking advantage of the added haste except for auto attacks. People who follow sims as if they're the golden word aren't factoring in that they aren't robots who will utilize the haste perfectly and don't experience server lag. You have to use your own common sense that will make you better, aka multistrike beyond 1000. If you aren't capped during lust you aren't looking at a swing timer. You can squeeze off maybe 1.5 strikes each auto.

Armory haste and ingame character sheet haste are not the same thing (for me, Armory is 76% at 1400 haste and ingame is 33%, or 46% in unholy presence). I'm not sure why that is, but if I had to guess, armory displays your autoattack speed which really isn't that helpful information. Passives are already calculated in the amount of haste you have, you don't add anything to it afterwards. Just look at the image above: 1638 haste = 36.52% raid buffed.

Also, first you criticize simulations and then go on to ramble about the swing timer that realisticly has zero impact on your performance. Really man, really?

[Schizoide]

Maybe it has something to do with my incredibly low multistrike.

If you have very low multistrike, additional multistrike should be more valuable, not less, as it effectively diminishes as you stack it.

I believe the current 2H frost T17M simcraft profile is optimized for MS, not haste, which should actually give haste more value for the same reason.

[Deleted]

If you have very low multistrike, additional multistrike should be more valuable, not less, as it effectively diminishes as you stack it.

I believe the current 2H frost T17M simcraft profile is optimized for MS, not haste, which should actually give haste more value for the same reason.

I think someone once told me multistrike gets better the more you have of it. There's obviously something that is making his multistrike more valuable than mine so I that's the first thing I thought of.

[Schizoide]

I think someone once told me multistrike gets better the more you have of it. There's obviously something that is making his multistrike more valuable than mine so I that's the first thing I thought of.

Whoever told you that was wrong. It is exactly the opposite.

[mostdeadlygeist]

Armory haste and ingame character sheet haste are not the same thing (for me, Armory is 76% at 1400 haste and ingame is 33%, or 46% in unholy presence). I'm not sure why that is, but if I had to guess, armory displays your autoattack speed which really isn't that helpful information. Passives are already calculated in the amount of haste you have, you don't add anything to it afterwards. Just look at the image above: 1638 haste = 36.52% raid buffed.

Also, first you criticize simulations and then go on to ramble about the swing timer that realisticly has zero impact on your performance. Really man, really?

Let's break it down together shall we. I'm inclined to believe that the armory displays your haste including the icy talons 20% attack speed buff (but it's not combined in game, you have to highlight your attack speed swing stats) as well as the 10% haste on top of that. Factor in unholy aura for another 5%, plus your haste, and you have huge natural amounts of haste as a DK--basically hitting a soft cap pretty easily. I don't know where else it would get that number unless it is factoring in icy talons.

Ok. Great, still with me? I'm not sure if this is ESL here. Please reread when you get the chance.

Your auto attack is incredibly useful information, especially as frost and moreso if you're 2h frost, which is the point of this thread. If you aren't using a swing timer to time when to use OB and FS, you're not playing the spec efficiently. Since haste affects your auto attack speed, this is very important information and is part of your simulation when haste is calculated since the robot is timing these perfectly with no lag and no missed KM's. 2h frost gets a bonus 35% white damage, so by increasing your haste, you utilize that more. Once you start going overboard, however, the stat will be devalued, much like crit is devalued since we have KM. It's not that it's a bad stat, it's that beyond a certain point you'd be better off with something like MS. Basically, if your haste is so great that your gcd starts to fall back between each swing, you're probably hurting yourself since at a point you will be rune starved.

I'm not criticizing sims. If you read the post I state that no one is going to mimic them so you shouldn't take them as gospel. Once again, reading comprehension. Also, the fact that you think a swing timer has 0 affect on performance...I'll just leave it at that.

[Bluey111]

Haste is still my best stat at 667. I believe my sim put it at 2.47 and multi at about 2.13, even considering suboptimal play I doubt multi beats out haste unless you just arnet hitting anything for more than is really possible in this tier.