What do casuals look for in pugs?

[Dasani]

I love to raid. I like to do it often. Unfortunately my guild clears all the content very fast then we just clear out mythic one night every week and there's nothing left to do the rest of the week. So to alleviate boredom, I join pug groups now and then. I usually aim for guild groups working on progression in heroic (or sometimes even normal) to help them get through the content. Gives me something to do, and I feel like it's kinda like community service helping other people out. They're always very grateful for the experience so it feels good all around.

Anyway lately i've noticed most groups doing progression in heroic tend to be stuck on heroic imperator. That's understandable, because that boss is much harder than the rest from a healing perspective and most groups only kill it by swamping the raid down with healers. However I was declined by two groups tonight I attempted to join and help out, and it isn't the first time, i've been declined a few other times in the past for heroic imperator. I cannot wrap my head around it and i'm hoping maybe someone can explain it to me.

So when they see me queue up, it shows my item level which is 686. It shows my gold proving grounds for tank and dps, i've done endless but pretty sure gold is as high as it displays. And they see my little message that says "I can do 40k dps on this fight and have mythic imp on farm". Now this is all the information that they have available to them to make a judgement.

Now if I was a raid leader and I was looking for dps and I saw someone 686 who wanted to just come help kill a boss, i'd invite them right away. It's only logical, you KNOW they are going to shit all over the rest of the dps in there and be a huge asset and make the kill much easier than it would've been otherwise. Even if the group was already melee heavy you could shuffle things around or invite another ranged, whatever it takes to make it work because that kind of DPS is worth it.

I just don't get it. I really, honestly don't. I mean, are they stupid? Do they not read? Do they think having more than 12 people makes the fight impossible?

I mean i'd just like a little insight into what people who run raids that pug people often think about this because it blows my mind.

I went on to help two other groups kill heroic imperator for the first time tonight, but those first two that declined my app almost instantly I just can't help but think they are hopelessly stupid.

Most groups only require ahead of the curve to get into a heroic imp kill, the more elitist type groups. My cutting edge is the golden ticket into such groups instantly, as well as my item level. But I don't really like those kinds of groups because they're usually full of dicks and usually don't really need help anyway because they stack their group so hard it's impossible to fail. I like to help people working on progression so most of the groups I aim for are casualish types. And I guess my brain just doesn't work the way theirs does, because I just can't see a reason for declining such an app.

After helping those other 2 groups kill heroic imp, their first time ever, I went back to the group finder and both those groups that declined me are still looking for dps for their groups. I just don't understand. Help me to understand.

[tj119]

They're stupid. Nothing else to it...

[SidFwuff]

Most groups only require ahead of the curve to get into a heroic imp kill, the more elitist type groups. My cutting edge is the golden ticket into such groups instantly, as well as my item level. But I don't really like those kinds of groups because they're usually full of dicks and usually don't really need help anyway because they stack their group so hard it's impossible to fail.

That's my guess. They've probably had people with Mythic there before, or at the least have gear from mythic who are looking for an odd piece that's an upgrade, or whatever off H. Imp.

I'm pretty casual now, and the guild I'm in is very laid back. In my experience some casuals only need to get laughed/chewed out while working on progression by a 'Mythic raider' that belittles them for using a different tactic than the Mythic guild does, being told to kick/replace their friends for subpar DPS, and have their VoIP filled with said player's accomplishments and how much harder mythic is a few times before they stop inviting mythic players.

Sometimes having a bit more difficulty and not getting helped carried is worth the risk of getting some elite douchbag that's there not to help but to feed their ego.

Unfortunately, the people who are legitimately there to help get filtered out.

[sarym13]

Yeah you're just a god with a golden hand that should be invited to any group you desire, no matter if they need a specific class / spec. You are a master of pugs, all shall bow down to you.

Why this is not happening though is quite a mystery, sire.

[Deleted]

could just be the elitist attitude that some mythic raiders tend to have when it comes to pugs. Not saying that you have it, I have never grouped with you so I can't say. However the odd mythic raider I have grouped with has been more of a douche bag than your average Joe.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah you're just a god with a golden hand that should be invited to any group you desire, no matter if they need a specific class / spec. You are a master of pugs, all shall bow down to you.

Why this is not happening though is quite a mystery, sire.

My sarcasm sense's are tingling.

[des1234]

[ I like to help people working on progression so most of the groups I aim for are casualish types. ]

If I had to guess, they think you will come into their raid, wave your "Mythic farm" flag and berate them for mistakes they make. They are obviously playing at a different level than you since they're struggling on a boss that's a lower level difficulty than the one you're farming. So while I personally would love to have someone of your skill in my group, if I was raid leading a guild group I would be worried about your attitude being elitist towards my teammates. I would guess that is the main factor preventing you from being an instant invite.

I've seen too many people of high ilvl come into a raid, instantly demand loot changes (i.e. "Yeah I saw this was Master Looter but you should really change to Personal Loot" from a single pug that just joined a full run), or start lecturing people on how to do things, change their strat etc. Or start lambasting a player for stepping into a bomb telling RL to kick them. That's a fine thing to suggest in a whisper to the Raid Leader after a few wipes, but usually elitist people don't wait that long and instantly jump all over any players who don't perform as well as they are directly in raid chat. That left a bad taste in many people's mouths and now they try to avoid inviting "overqualified" people. (Not me personally, I love experienced raiders helping as that's what I try to do myself.)

As long as you realize that the reason these players are struggling on Imp is because that's where they are currently in their progression (and also that many of them have ZERO interest in clearing Mythic after heroic Imp) and adjust your attitude accordingly you should be fine :-) A lot of people who are casuals are raiding primarily to do it with friends, not for progression. They will not kick someone for making mistakes, they will keep trying until that person learns. As long as your goal is NOT to feel superior to these folks due to your ilvl/skill, then you will be welcomed with open arms. Maybe say in your app that you're a patient person, it might help.

[you KNOW they are going to shit all over the rest of the dps in there]

They're kind of worried about that actually. They don't want their dps to be shat on and feel like they got carried. They want to get the kill "on their own terms" and inviting a person of similar ilvl to them makes them feel like it was a group effort.

[Deja Thoris]

My sarcasm sense's are tingling.

Christ, if it were any more obvious he would have tatoo'd it to your forehead. Remarkable powers of observation there sir!

[Deleted]

Well, if anyone wants to help my guild finally get imp hc down tomorrow (EU server), I think my RL won't be against some awesome help . We already get some ex-guildies -who are now progressing in Mythic- to help us out every now and then, so more awesome help probably won't be declined. Just shout out for my battletag

[Dasani]

I suppose all that makes sense. I've never been on the other side of the coin where someone better geared or more experienced came into my raid trying to tell people what to do.

While I don't do that kind of thing and don't try to tell them to change tactics or anything like that, I could see how they might be afraid of such a thing happening.

I do it half because I want something to do and half because I wanna help people. I could get in those high requirement groups and one shit heroic imperator 100 times a day but I don't get anything out of it. Helping some people kill it for the first time or helping a guild kill it on farm when they're missing important components in their raid because of the superbowl or whatever is a lot more satisfying to me. I guess you could say it strokes my ego, maybe thats true, but at least it helps them out. There's actually one group I run with on a weekly basis now that I enjoyed raiding with so much I decided to go back with em every night they go in. They were only 6/7 N and 0/7 H before I joined, now they are 7/7 N, 6/7 H. Only reason they haven't killed heroic imp themselves yet is because they don't raid a lot, and like to spend 1 day on heroic and 1 day on normal, so there's just never enough time for heroic imp sadly. Soon though. Now in that group i've been asked for advice on many encounters or for helpful tips so I give it to them. Things like having holy paladins bait adds with righteous fury on koragh for easy pickups and tank positions or bopping healers with crystalline barrage so they only have to take 2 steps forward and continue healing instead of running from it. Stuff like that.

I find it enjoyable, they find it enjoyable, everybody wins.

Yeah you're just a god with a golden hand that should be invited to any group you desire, no matter if they need a specific class / spec. You are a master of pugs, all shall bow down to you.

Why this is not happening though is quite a mystery, sire.

Pray tell, give me a specific class/spec for heroic imperator that outweighs a mythic experienced and geared DPS that will push the phases faster and kill the adds faster than anything else they could possibly bring in there? And even if they did want something specific for whatever reason, there's no reason not to bring both. Extremely high DPS for one extra player in the raid is always worth it. Always. But even your woeful ignorance helps give me insight into the minds of people who would turn away such a thing. I sometimes forget irrational hatred is a thing.

People who are too proud to accept help don't make it very far in life, fun fact.

[Otimus]

I think a whole lot of players have some extreme misconceptions about the amount of players they need to have in the raid group for it to be "easy". (Along with exactly how many healers are needed -- Most pugs I'm in seem to never get enough of them). A lot of people are still making group totals based off of the amount of people you needed for it to be "easy" based on pre-6.0 Flex SSO.

[Deleted]

Instant gratification.

[Dasani]

I think a whole lot of players have some extreme misconceptions about the amount of players they need to have in the raid group for it to be "easy". (Along with exactly how many healers are needed -- Most pugs I'm in seem to never get enough of them). A lot of people are still making group totals based off of the amount of people you needed for it to be "easy" based on pre-6.0 Flex SSO.

Interesting.

I haven't seen a whole lot of this, unless they just don't talk about it much. However I do have some more casual friends who raid with a guild every week and require exactly 15 people in their raids. No more, no less. Their reasoning ( i believe) is at 15 people you always get 3 pieces of loot. My understanding of the loot system is you get 2 at 10 then 20% chance for a third each person up to 15 which is 100% for 3, then 20% for a 4th drop every person after, etc. So if you always bring 15, you always get 3.

Not sure if that is entirely accurate but that's just my present understanding. I do find it a bit odd they are so inflexible, but then again this group also refuses to let anyone to have assist in their raids other than officers. Not even tanks. Very control-freakish.

[kamuimac]

Well tbh my first guess would be they think you are trolling them - after all what would 686 dps look for in hc imperator i understand that you are bored but they may think you are doin it only to troll them - that would be my first thought if someone was trting to join my group with that itlv :P

[Dasani]

Well, if anyone wants to help my guild finally get imp hc down tomorrow (EU server), I think my RL won't be against some awesome help . We already get some ex-guildies -who are now progressing in Mythic- to help us out every now and then, so more awesome help probably won't be declined. Just shout out for my battletag

I actually have a raid tomorrow with those casualish people I run with every week already planned. Also US server. I do join pugs fairly often though, usually one or two about 3 times a week maybe.

I think the biggest reason is i've become so disinterested in the game and when I see them get so happy and excited at killing a boss, it kinda rubs off on me, makes me feel almost like its still worth playing.

[Dasani]

This sounds a lot like a veiled "Look at me, LOOK AT MEEEE" thread, to be honest.

When you get realm first mythic imperator you get flooded with attention and whispers, from people you don't even know, for days. Hundreds of them. Attention is not what I want or need. If I did, i'd just post links to my armory and warcraft logs so people could foam at all the numbers. Those are the guys who like attention, the ones who have little banner signatures with their item level they update every piece of gear they get. I prefer not being known. Especially since I seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way and don't want my guild getting flak over it.

It's just truly surprising that some groups would not invite someone so overqualified as to make the fight significantly easier. I was looking for some insight as to why, and i've got some pretty good responses. Even from the douches. It's not gonna stop me from pugging, but every time someone declines one of my apps, it still just boggles my mind. I actually feel kind of sorry for them for shooting themselves in the foot. Whatever misconceptions they have is costing them what they want: a kill.

[Splatter]

[ I like to help people working on progression so most of the groups I aim for are casualish types. ]

I've seen too many people of high ilvl come into a raid, start lecturing people on how to do things, change their strat etc. Or start lambasting a player for stepping into a bomb telling RL to kick them. That's a fine thing to suggest in a whisper to the Raid Leader after a few wipes, but usually elitist people don't wait that long and instantly jump all over any players who don't perform as well as they are directly in raid chat. That left a bad taste in many people's mouths and now they try to avoid inviting "overqualified" people. (Not me personally, I love experienced raiders helping as that's what I try to do myself.)

Had this exact experience when we were working on heroic Imp. The end result was two of our ranged got upset and no longer raid and we found it so hard to replace them we ended up joining another guild just so we didn't have to pug anymore. I've even had this happen from people who are average gear levels and haven't even killed imperator themselves. It is quite satisfying to pst them and say "do you notice that everyone else in this raid is in the same guild?, bye". I'd still invite overgeared players but would kick them the instant they started upsetting my guildmates.

@OP I wouldn't invite you if I didn't need more of your class/role unless i was replacing an under performing pug, I certainly wouldn't replace a guildy for you and when you are pugging the raid gets to a certain size where it gets much harder to coordinate. A lot of the groups will be looking for something specific to fill a spot, I often put in "heroic imperator, need ranged dps only NO MELEE" and what happens? I get a million rogues, DKs, tanks and healers asking to join. decline decline decline, i just want 1 fucking hunter ffs !

[Nemah]

This sounds a lot like a veiled "Look at me, LOOK AT MEEEE" thread, to be honest.

Yup. Especially at the "community service" line.

Look, OP. Maybe to alleviate boredom you should go find something else to do. When I'm done clearing content, I go do other stuff. Can't just have one hobby now, can we? The pug scene is always 85% shitfest 15% good groups. Why put yourself through it?

I think you're just looking for head pats.

[Nofo]

when people get server first i whisper usually the guildleader (considering im on sargeras its midwinter and slootbag) tell them gratz but casuals raiding wise look for anything that can work imo and my experience as a casual raider is like o this might work (5% chance) why the hell not

[Dasani]

I don't recall getting "hundreds" of whispers for days when we got realm firsts.

How big is your server and how soon do you get it?

I get so many whispers when it happens I can't even reply to them all. And for 2-3 days after the fact I still get the odd whisper now and then

"heard you got mythic imp, grats" and stuff like that. Several others have the same thing happen, during the initial craze because it posts all our names in all chat windows across the server.

That's really not the point of the thread now is it? When I kill mythic blackhand i'll take some screenshots of it. But then i'm sure there'd be just as many people saying it's bragging or looking for "head pats" by posting such things. You really can't win on the internet can you? Anything you say theres always some douche that takes it the wrong way or wants to turn it around.

1) I doubt what you described in the OP even happened given most pugs attitudes about gear.

2) If it did happen, it's probably because of what I already said: It'd feel a lot like a, "LOOK AT ME, YOU STUPID PUGGIES". In fact, I've had one of those in the last couple LFR's I did...one dude kept linking mythic achievements, calling everyone scrubs, and pulled Brackenspore over and over when most people weren't there, hah.

It does happen. Not too often, maybe one in ten groups I app to join. Most people know its a good idea, some decline and it's just hard to understand why without immediately assuming they are incredibly stupid for a myriad of reasons. But my sample size is probably a bit larger because I pug a LOT. As I said in the OP, they decline shortly after I put in the app. I never speak to any of them directly or am invited to the group, all they have to go off of is my ilevel, my proving grounds, and the little note I put when I apped. Also the groups I DO join are always grateful for the help and a good chunk of them ask if i'll come back and help them again in the future. So if I was joining to torment these people, I don't think i'd get such positive feedback from them universally.

It's the ones I don't actually get to interact with that decline. Assuming everyone with a high level offering to join your group is a troll is as ignorant as racism. You never even realize what you miss out on.

But anyways, I think i've said about all I have to say on the topic. There's not much more to add here. In terms of pros and cons, you can't convince "forum people" of anything since they all assume they're right about everything and even if you could convince them, you don't get anything out of it by doing so. I asked my question and got some useful insights out of it. So i'm done here.

Gonna go look for another pug raid to join.

[Deleted]

"Mythic geared guy joins LFR to be nice and help everyone." never happens, and why should it? It's a waste of their time, so I get that.

"Mythic geared guy joins LFR to be an ass and troll people." happens all the time.

Thats not necessary true, I am running LFR each week for runes and chance for gear to d/e.

And for OP, I tend to do same thing like you, and i had group when after clearing 6/7h with them they asked me to step out for Imp since its their progression and they dont wanna skip progression with bringing stupid overgeared DPS instead of learning and perfecting the fight on their own...