is WoW PvP too hardcore to be successful?

[Deleted]

reaction time still a joke compared to fps/combat games

your wind shear is off cd and the enemy rdruid suddenly casts a soul of the forest clone on your healer. stop that while having to keep track of a gazillion other things and THEN come back to edit your post.

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WoW is in no way hardcore when compared to MOBAs.

MOBAs...you have 4 abilities. run away when low health and you are safe (lol) ... play 3s at 2700 and you will come back feeling like a god.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Wows pvp isn't and will never be balanced enough To be an e sport.

[GodEmperor]

Agree with OP that wow PvP is harder than most other esports. Don't have to see the faces of people to understand that, it's very obvious to anyone who plays 3s. MOBAs lmao are nothing even close to wow.

Reaction time is very very important for wow. Even among the easiest classes like warriors need to be really fast to mass spell reflect traps and other ccs. Same for intervening CCs on healers. Also for Dks wanting to copy ccs with Dark sim which also sometimes involves predicting what the enemy is going to do next.

I still get adrenaline rushes and have trouble concentrating in 2s and 3s.

Only problem with wow is it's not balanced. Wish it was

But not all comps in 3s are like that. Some are a snoozefest, usually double casters where everyone has spammable ccs are boring. Double DPS comps also while fast still is just training the healer and not really exciting.

Wish 3s was all about melee casters combination (RMD without current combat, Shadow Cleave, WLS, Unh and shadow priest, Arms and Shadow, DK and Mage) comps like that without hunters who imo a boring class with the current design.

[Ohmygonzo]

Too unbalanced to be successful. Some classes outright better then others. I saw a statistic that the highest represented healer, a Resto Druid, is 10x more represented then the lowest, Priests.

It's something different to do with your toon, who we all form bonds with, while you wait for PvE stuff. If your a primarily PvP driven player, there are better games out there for you.

Easier classes will be more played classes, always was, always will be.
Representation of classes doesn't mean anything. That doesn't mean that you will not see high ranked priests in the arena, and after all, it comes down to the "driver"
Doesn't even have to mean that it will always be equal, there was a time where Disco priest was op in arena, their time passed, for now, the wheel keeps turning
Who would've known that combat rogues would be more played in pvp than sub/mutilate...
It is what it is. If it was all equal and "balanced", what would people be complaining about, and what would be exciting and interesting about having all the classes performing the same...

[xpose]

Wows pvp isn't and will never be balanced enough To be an e sport.

It's already an e-sport...just not a popular one.

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Easier classes will be more played classes, always was, always will be.
Representation of classes doesn't mean anything. That doesn't mean that you will not see high ranked priests in the arena, and after all, it comes down to the "driver"
Doesn't even have to mean that it will always be equal, there was a time where Disco priest was op in arena, their time passed, for now, the wheel keeps turning
Who would've known that combat rogues would be more played in pvp than sub/mutilate...
It is what it is. If it was all equal and "balanced", what would people be complaining about, and what would be exciting and interesting about having all the classes performing the same...

Some people still remember when combat maces were destroying arena...

[Syh]

The hardest part is prediciting what your enemy is going to do and countering that, individual and as a team.

I agree, I didn't express it well but that's what I meant as "communication/coordination" on a team (you have to be able to predict what they're doing on an individual level to communicate properly, and coordinate with your team to counter it).

[Hand Banana]

I would like someone to explain to me how being unbalanced makes it a poor esport. So what if the finals in a tournament is an RMD vs RMD? Mirror matches are just as exciting as non-mirrors, oftentimes more exciting to watch. Balance has literally nothing to do with how entertaining a game is to watch which is 90% of what makes it an esport. People act like LoL is balanced or something; there's god tier and tier 1 etc at all times that the pros play.

[Deleted]

PvP is easy to play when you are into it.

It takes a lot of time for players to get used to all the abilities and how to counter them.

[Doez]

Why do people say WoW isn't balanced (which I agree with) but say MOBAs like LoL is balanced? Surely skill and awareness are vital for LoL, but there are counter-picks and bans for a reason - because the game is not balanced to be an even fight.

[Flaks]

People talking about "60+ key binds" like all things are used constantly. Starcraft is an esport with more actions going on at any moment than any wow match. That is not the reason for wow not being an esport. I'd say it's not esport material because of lack of balance (which has little to do with representation).

If blizzard even moderately balanced 2s arenas (which were pretty damn well balanced in the latter seasons of wotlk so don't say it's impossible) then we might see the game return to the esport scene.

We see Starcraft 1v1s because too much is going on to follow in 2v2s. Same way 3s is a damn sight harder to follow than 2s in wow. Blizzard just doesn't care to make wow esport worthy and is content with Starcraft being the go to for that. Also overwatch is probably going to take starcrafts place as it starts to inevitably die down in popularity.

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PvP is easy to play when you are into it.

It takes a lot of time for players to get used to all the abilities and how to counter them.

The same as in any Moba or rts.

[Deleted]

"Insanely complex"
Plz, go to university and obtain a PhD, then we will talk complex.

I'm amazed by what poeple regard as complex. Get a masters degree, that's when complexity starts. WoW is ridiculously simple, to be succesfull it requires you to be very fast with keybinds, you need to have talent to utilize it well, some poeple just dont have that muscle memory/reflexes/dedication to learn a game. (which is in the end of the day a waste of time)

But complex? Plz, I -and everyone with half a brain- can study every ability in this game in one day.

[Hand Banana]

"Insanely complex"
Plz, go to university and obtain a PhD, then we will talk complex.

I'm amazed by what poeple regard as complex. Get a masters degree, that's when complexity starts. WoW is ridiculously simple, to be succesfull it requires you to be very fast with keybinds, you need to have talent to utilize it well, some poeple just dont have that muscle memory/reflexes/dedication to learn a game. (which is in the end of the day a waste of time)

But complex? Plz, I -and everyone with half a brain- can study every ability in this game in one day.

I actually have a masters degree believe it or not.

If you think wow's pvp is just being fast with keybinds then you don't really get it. You have to understand your cooldowns, your enemies cds, your teammates cds, and adjust to what is happening while attempting to line up cc and/or properly heal or damage.

I'll give you an example. Playing a hpally against a surv/afflic/rdruid last week as war/ele/hpally. As the pally, just from an avoiding cc so I can actually heal and keep people alive perspective, I have to be aware of: Hunter's trap cd, hunter's positioning, counter shot cd, lock's positioning or if he casts fear directed at me, spell lock cd, shadowfury/coil cd, druid's positioning and if he casts clone directed at me, Dark Soul from the lock, and lock's port location so he can't get around me. I also have to heal which requires quite a bit of hardcasting and balancing of cds while avoiding instant ranged interrupts. Then I also have to coordinate with my team constantly; my ele drops below 50% while im in fear, do I let him tremor me and hopefully not get cc'd before he can, do I trinket then sac the ele to avoid a trap (hopefully before it gets purged), or do I eat the fear and hope SBTL will be enough? I then need to yell at my warrior (in case he doesn't see it) that hunters trap cd is up and he will 99% probably be trapping me off the fear and tell him to be ready with MSR.

Wow's pvp is complex as hell.

[Wass]

I don't have a master's degree yet (need like 3 more years for that one) but

I'll give you an example. Playing a hpally against a surv/afflic/rdruid last week as war/ele/hpally. As the pally, just from an avoiding cc so I can actually heal and keep people alive perspective, I have to be aware of: Hunter's trap cd, hunter's positioning, counter shot cd, lock's positioning or if he casts fear directed at me, spell lock cd, shadowfury/coil cd, druid's positioning and if he casts clone directed at me, Dark Soul from the lock, and lock's port location so he can't get around me. I also have to heal which requires quite a bit of hardcasting and balancing of cds while avoiding instant ranged interrupts. Then I also have to coordinate with my team constantly; my ele drops below 50% while im in fear, do I let him tremor me and hopefully not get cc'd before he can, do I trinket then sac the ele to avoid a trap (hopefully before it gets purged), or do I eat the fear and hope SBTL will be enough? I then need to yell at my warrior (in case he doesn't see it) that hunters trap cd is up and he will 99% probably be trapping me off the fear and tell him to be ready with MSR.

Wow's pvp is complex as hell.

This is exactly how I feel when playing against RMD. I have to watch 10ish places on my screen at the same time while being aware of where the mage and druid are positioning themselves (when I play my signature comp).

[Teabaker]

I think Wow would be a great E-sport. However, it's too hard to get into it. Dota, Starcraft, League of Legends, CS etc. you can pick those Game up and play them. In Wow you first need to level a character, equip them and get to know the other classes. Leveling is SUCH a huge time waste and takes wayy to long. Also I feel other games are nicer to watch and easier to follow. Have you ever watched a WoW-match? It's terrible, you have no clue whats going on if you don't play Wow. I'm currently not playing Star Craft 2 but following a match is still entertaining, the same with CS.

[Nofo]

I think Wow would be a great E-sport. However, it's too hard to get into it. Dota, Starcraft, League of Legends, CS etc. you can pick those Game up and play them. In Wow you first need to level a character, equip them and get to know the other classes. Leveling is SUCH a huge time waste and takes wayy to long. Also I feel other games are nicer to watch and easier to follow. Have you ever watched a WoW-match? It's terrible, you have no clue whats going on if you don't play Wow. I'm currently not playing Star Craft 2 but following a match is still entertaining, the same with CS.

i takes no time at all to level you can do 1-60 in ur first sitting and easily do 70-80 in ur second and if ur really butthurt over level time you can fuckn buy a lvl 90???????????? and what 6 hours later ur 100

[Teabaker]

i takes no time at all to level you can do 1-60 in ur first sitting and easily do 70-80 in ur second and if ur really butthurt over level time you can fuckn buy a lvl 90???????????? and what 6 hours later ur 100

A new player can do that too? Why should he do all that mindless grinding?

[asb]

WoW PvP is fucking INSANE at a high level. It's actually stupid how hard 3v3 can get.

And this is where I see the problem. In WoW PvP there is SO much to learn before you can even start playing at a high rating. Nowadays, people don't want that. They just cba learning every friggin ability of every spec in the game and how they work with pretty much everything else. Everything is intertwined. It's simply too much for most people. They just want to log in...manage 4 abilities and aim a bit here and there...or they just want to have a reticle on their screen wait some and then klick some whenever they see something moving.

Yeah this is basically the problem. Esport titles want to be (among other things) super accessible and quickly understood. They need a lot of people playing to feed a viewerbase, and that means captivating players at every skill level and attention span. There seem to be enough people pvping in wow to make tournaments possible, but it'll never be as big as moba or fps titles because it's not straightforward enough. You have to be a pretty seasoned player yourself just to understand what's happening in an arena game, which doesn't make it very viewer-friendly and unfortunately keeps the larger pve playerbase away from pvp.

i takes no time at all to level you can do 1-60 in ur first sitting and easily do 70-80 in ur second and if ur really butthurt over level time you can fuckn buy a lvl 90???????????? and what 6 hours later ur 100

No, that's from the perspective of someone that already plays and understands the game (and an exaggeration to boot). To someone that's never played an mmo and is perhaps intrigued by a twitch stream, they have to spend days on a weird levelling process that is devoid of competition and doesn't even resemble the gameplay they were after.

Not that there's much Blizzard can do to fix that, though. Without at least some time in that slower-paced pve environment, I think the complexity of basic game mechanics would be too much to take in. That's just how mmos work. It's a genre that was created for the most dedicated hardcore gamers out there, which is a design goal entirely counter to the typical esports model.

[ro9ue]

I played WoW PVP at a high level earlier in the game, but watching it is a bore. There's so many buttons that you can't really see what's happening. Then you throw 5 others into the mix with a 3v3... nah.

It's not really hardcore as much as it's just very hard to keybind. I think the biggest misconception is that more buttons = more challenge, but that's not really the case. There are games that are 1-2 buttons, but the skill is in the timing and order. To me WoW PvP suffers from just being overly complex to the point where a casual spectator won't be able to follow it well. Hell, I've been playing WoW a long time, and if there isn't an announcer doing a play by play I still don't even know what's going on.


If there were 3-4 buttons I think you'd have a much better chance at having a great esport game. I think that's why Smite took off even though it's a MOBA. It's basically WoW BGs and Arenas with less buttons. But it doesn't mean it's easier, there's still a good amount of room for skill there.

Watch this and tell me it's not basically a better WoW arena:

[Deleted]

It's very overwhelming to be good at WoW pvp, not just for new players but also veteran (PvE) players.
Not only must you know and understand your own class but also every other class out there.

Another problem is, like said multiple times already in this thread, the fact that WoW pvp is just so badly balanced. It relies so much on the right class combo that it's only playable at higher ratings if you are running the right ones.

And it will never be a watchable e-sport because it's just a giant cluster**** of things happening on the screen, that people who don't play WoW will not understand.

[GodEmperor]

I played WoW PVP at a high level earlier in the game, but watching it is a bore. There's so many buttons that you can't really see what's happening. Then you throw 5 others into the mix with a 3v3... nah.

It's not really hardcore as much as it's just very hard to keybind. I think the biggest misconception is that more buttons = more challenge, but that's not really the case. There are games that are 1-2 buttons, but the skill is in the timing and order. To me WoW PvP suffers from just being overly complex to the point where a casual spectator won't be able to follow it well. Hell, I've been playing WoW a long time, and if there isn't an announcer doing a play by play I still don't even know what's going on.


If there were 3-4 buttons I think you'd have a much better chance at having a great esport game. I think that's why Smite took off even though it's a MOBA. It's basically WoW BGs and Arenas with less buttons. But it doesn't mean it's easier, there's still a good amount of room for skill there.

Watch this and tell me it's not basically a better WoW arena:

Watched for 2 minutes, don't think so. Has 4 buttons and most of it is him killing minions. Lot of Graphic clutter

Now watch this Blizzcon semi at time 1:22:44 for a couple mins and tell me if any thing really comes close