gear vs practice differential?

[kamuii]

I think it's a pretty common dilemma for some raid leaders when it comes deciding whether to spend the night farm gear or do more attempts. Of course there's a lot of speculation and it may vary depending on the group.

Has anyone done any actual math average of howmuch gear will help per ilvl and howmuch practice helps per attempt?

[Shamburger]

I don't know about math, but it depends for us on how the progression boss is going.

Take butcher for example. You KNOW the dps need a certain amount of gear to meet the DPS check. So if you're wiping to enrage it's probably time to farm gear. But say... Imperator, only a couple dps checks (killing adds) but it's more about the mechanics, and fight mechanics only come with practicing them. I don't think math could even be done on this since the variables of bosses are incredibly diverse

[kamuii]

Yes. We already know that. That's all speculation though. Without any hard evidence to back it up. The question is not which one is better, but which one diminish greatly at what point.

Experimental and analytical support needed.

[kamuii]

"Hard evidence" will be largely impossible to provide, though. What would it even consist of? Even if such a thing were possible to generate, there are so many variables involved.

Why are you wiping to your progression boss? Are you dying to a stat check or a mechanic? Are players performing significantly below their gear would allow? Are your farm bosses genuinely "on farm" as in you can just walk in and quickly down them? What roles are actually undergeared in your raid, and what drops would assist you on your progression boss?

This isn't something that someone can just throw into a calculator and come back with an answer for you, sadly. There are some things that, as a leader, you just have to make a judgment call on.

Simulatiomcraft isn't something someone can just throw into a calculator and come back with an answer either. If I had an answer I wouldn't be here to ask for actual support that's not pure speculation.

[kamuii]

What? Simulations are EXACTLY the kind of thing you can throw data into and come back with a result. That's kinda the entire point of things like SimCraft.

The bottom line here is that no one can give you the answer you're looking for because it doesn't exist. You're asking for statistics that don't exist or aren't meaningful, like "How much practice helps per attempt". The only thing someone could possibly give you is "How many wipes it took X guild to kill that boss" and even then it wouldn't apply to YOUR raid group and wouldn't be a comparable stat to "how much would more gear help?"

Like I said, when you're the leader there are some things that you just have to make judgment calls on. Personally, I'm all for putting as much time on your progression target as possible unless killing your farm bosses isn't going to take an entire night.

No, you throw data into multivariable equations for sims...You have to figure out those equations and functions first before you can throw data into it. Have you actually tried doing sims? Also did you actually look for it and couldn't find one or are you just assuming there isn't. There's plenty of data on warcraftlogs for a statistical analysis of ilvl average for each boss and attempts per boss for each boss.

[FobManX]

If farm bosses drop really good weapons, trinkets, or tier pieces that provide good bonuses, I'd go for those, as they make a huge difference. Anything else and I think more practice would be better.

[kamuii]

I'm not sure you understand the point here. One is actual math, the other is largely opinion and feels.



If you know the data is there, and you think there's a meaningful way to make use of it to figure out what you're after....then go do it!

Statistical analysis =/= opinion.

When people ask whether someone's producing a certain type of vehicle are you one of those that tells them "the car parts are available. Why don't you just craft it?"

[Pokty]

Always clear farm bosses for more gear even if it means less attempts, and if you can't kill the farm bosses quickly, they aren't really farm bosses and you need to practice them anyway.

[kamuii]

That's....not even a meaningful analogy in any way.

You just said that the data is all there. All the data relevant to what you want is right at your fingertips. If you think there's a meaningful way to make use of it to come up with a "hard answer" to the question of whether or not killing a farm boss is more effective than practicing your progression boss, then have at it.

All the atoms you need to make a car is there. Why don't you figure out the differentials to split/fuse the protons so you can make turn them into the materials you need to make a car.

Do you tell someone to go figure out the functions and equations for sims themselves when someone ask for a link to sims?

[banur]

I threw together some math and came up with 3 and 5. I have no idea what they mean.

No seriously. The main problem is that we can not say how much a piece of gear will improve your raid dps (if at all), as SimCraft can give you numbers when played optimally but not for that exact player and fight, and there are no ways to put a number on learning.
Rather tell us where you are struggling and how your group performs. Logs would help.

[kamuii]

I threw together some math and came up with 3 and 5. I have no idea what they mean.

No seriously. The main problem is that we can not say how much a piece of gear will improve your raid dps (if at all), as SimCraft can give you numbers when played optimally but not for that exact player and fight, and there are no ways to put a number on learning.
Rather tell us where you are struggling and how your group performs. Logs would help.

Howmuch a piece of gear for 1 person? No.

Howmuch an average ilvl for a raid gathered from millions of samples? Yes

[banur]

Howmuch a piece of gear for 1 person? No.

Howmuch an average ilvl for a raid gathered from millions of samples? Yes

Your raiders are not an average of million samples. How can you assume that getting a piece of gear for a raider has the same impact as for someone average.
How can you assume time spent learning a fight follows the same equation an average raider needs.
If half of your raid is from Paragon and the other half are braindead monkeys, you have the average right there just that you can spend ages on the boss. The same applies to gear.

[Rhyseh]

I think it's a pretty common dilemma for some raid leaders when it comes deciding whether to spend the night farm gear or do more attempts. Of course there's a lot of speculation and it may vary depending on the group.

Has anyone done any actual math average of howmuch gear will help per ilvl and howmuch practice helps per attempt?

There is no exact science for this and it will greatly differ from raid group to raid group. You should generally always farm APPROPRIATE bosses before hitting progression bosses. You shouldn't need a mathematical formula to work this one out. If you do decide to skip some farm bosses to push progression... well this is a judgement call from the RL. There is no set formula here. Raid groups are made up of people. We could analyse averages and give a guess. However this would be greatly inaccurate. Like applying my local gold clubs average handicap to the PGA masters. Different levels of competency will yield different subset of stats.

Ultimately the data isn't available for something like this to be easily compiled. Really you should be able to look at you raid, look at the farm bosses loot tables and work out whether there is any advantage to farming the bosses.

[banur]

my local gold club

Ohhhh shiny!

[Zoopercat]

Kamuii, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We might have a few things to help with what you're trying to solve.

First, we have a new feature (Combat Infographics) that gathers data from every uploaded log, aggregates it, and tells you (the player and team) how well you're doing on each mechanic. Previously, all we had as raiders were things like total damage dealt, taken, etc. But that wasn't ever put into context until now. So we can tell you things like how many mines teams blow up on margok, on average, and where you stand. We can also tell you what the wipe % is at your team's iLevel. All sorts of good stuff. Here's a sample log you can play with.

Second, you can *roughly* estimate the DPS increase with gear for each player. The way to do that is on our optimizer. If you look at a piece of gear, you can see the score increase. Then you compare that to the player's total score. The % of score increase can be roughly assumed as the same % dps increase. For example, if my gear score is 5000, and I have an item that is a 250 point increase, that would be about a 5% increase in DPS.

If you have any questions, let me know! We spend a lot of time trying to tie gear to combat

[kamuii]

Kamuii, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We might have a few things to help with what you're trying to solve.

First, we have a new feature (Combat Infographics) that gathers data from every uploaded log, aggregates it, and tells you (the player and team) how well you're doing on each mechanic. Previously, all we had as raiders were things like total damage dealt, taken, etc. But that wasn't ever put into context until now. So we can tell you things like how many mines teams blow up on margok, on average, and where you stand. We can also tell you what the wipe % is at your team's iLevel. All sorts of good stuff. Here's a sample log you can play with.

Second, you can *roughly* estimate the DPS increase with gear for each player. The way to do that is on our optimizer. If you look at a piece of gear, you can see the score increase. Then you compare that to the player's total score. The % of score increase can be roughly assumed as the same % dps increase. For example, if my gear score is 5000, and I have an item that is a 250 point increase, that would be about a 5% increase in DPS.

If you have any questions, let me know! We spend a lot of time trying to tie gear to combat

Pretty cool stuff. Not exactly what I'm looking for but I think I can get what I need from those. Thanks.

[Bigbazz]

Practice >>>> Ilvl.

Also Ilvl is very misleading as there are certain items that don't line up with thier ilvl. For dps classes the static stat trinkets (Brackenspore STR, Imp Agil) are generally a lot weaker than their ilvl suggests, on the other hand the BOE trinkets with big on uses (like Scabbard, Lucky Coin) far exheed their Ilvl in value. On top of that you have the point where we no longer have reforging and plentiful gem sockets to optimise our gear... So ilvl is not as valuable as before.

On the subject of sockets, on non-weapons a socket is worth a good 10ilvl though most people judge only by the base ilvl. When you consider that top guilds were able to kill Heroic Imp with an average ilvl645 ish mix of geared mains and undergeared alts it becomes clear that proper play is much more valuable than better gear.

[Deleted]

Practice >>>> Ilvl.

On the subject of sockets, on non-weapons a socket is worth a good 10ilvl though most people judge only by the base ilvl. When you consider that top guilds were able to kill Heroic Imp with an average ilvl645 ish mix of geared mains and undergeared alts it becomes clear that proper play is much more valuable than better gear.

i do agree practice means more than ilevel, but also remember that Players of those top guilds can pretty much have almost 30% higher numbers in same Equipment as a casual Player on the same character because he messes things up - and this could only be countered by better Equipment as such Players will not catch up just by learning, they didnt in 10 years

so in General as one of the average guys: farm your bosses, then go practice on your next boss