[Resto] Fk ton of thoughts. While lot of em'. [Fk]

[Ctee]

God damn it. All I do is think about new sht all day.

Today's thoughts:

1. HotW versus NV

2. ToL and why you wouldn't always want to use it

3. The upcoming change to MoC

4. Refreshing Harmony
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1. Healing done with NV seems extremely lackluster and I feel like it doesn't get you out of sticky situations any faster than if you didn't have it. It also accounts for about 4% of healing done. I can't get past it and can't think why you wouldn't always want to go with HotW? Sure you might only be able to use it at least twice a fight, but it's such a massive boost of healing, especially done with ToL, Tranq, etc.

2. Why wouldn't you always want to use ToL? If WG seems to be a consistently top 3 ranked heal for us, why not always use ToL? Sure you get a 50% boost to healing done with SotF, at the cost of 13% of our base mana. ToL grants two extra WG targets, and Glyph of WG gives you another one. That's almost half of a damn mythic squad healed every 10 seconds if need be.

3. I feel like this rng proc of 7 seconds of free heals + the 1 min CD of NS + 2 set bonus seems to be potentially lolzy for HPS and HPM, in a good way. I see this becoming pretty popular. Regrowths all day, for free.

4. How do you refresh Harmony? Sure we get that free RG with clarity every once in a bit, but then it comes down to HT (10.35% base mana) versus SM (13% base mana). Why wouldn't most druids want to try and refresh with HT whenever possible over SM? Sure SM is awesome if you simply can't take the time to cast HT, but I'm already seeing some top parses using Glyph of Rejuv. Plus, everyone is switching over to Haste > Mastery which would make a more than a negligible reason to refresh Harmony with HT > SM (when applicable).

So many thoughts brahs, what's up?

[Vse]

1. I agree that HOTW is much stronger that NV - I've been wanting someone to explain to me what I'm missing about NV that makes it even a choice over HOTW or DoC. I generally swap between DoC and HotW depending on the dmg of the fight.

2. I prefer SotF over Incarnation depending on the DMG of the fight and the fight length. SotF is very strong, it improves your overall raid effective healing on large raid dmg fights. Compared to Tree, which can be just for small bursts. I'd run tree (maybe) if there were small periods of lots of dmg where you're not tranqing, or you're undergeared significantly for progression. I know Paragon's druid ran tree/doc, but many of us are not as mana starved. For example on Mythic Imp I run SotF/DoC, I try to not renew much and use my SotF/WG on CD for raid damage. That helps with mana, and allows WG to be mana efficient with little overheal. DoC does decent healing/dmg while regenerating mana for the phases where healing is intense and you can drain a mana pool by 70% easy.

3. Yeah this is going to be fun to play with.

4. SM on CD and I don't think you really have to worry about Harmony. I run Sotf so this is never an issue but the instant heal is very nice. Hardcasting HT is a bit awkward but if you want to you can

[Deleted]

Indeed, the healing from NV is around 4%, and in a ~9 minute fight you got around 500k damage out of it, or at least that's why my latest log shows. I definitely don't think NV is worth it if you do not pair it with ToL, in that case you're usually better off with HotW or DoC.

I guess it's mostly personal preference, but I find myself going ToL+NV if I do not need HotW for either extra DPS or getting through a period that's very heavy on healing (through making the Tranq crazy strong etc).

Just crunched some numbers, on our Heroic Blast Furnace kill, I had ToL+NV and I did 1,29 million healing and 540k damage with NV. My HPS was 55300, and in a 9-minute fight I'd get 2x HotW off. So in order for HotW to be better (strictly speaking theoretically here) it would have to do more than 540k damage and 1,29 million healing.

If we assumed I would heal for the full duration of both HotW, we add 35% to my healing without NV included. That's 53k HPS on average, which HotW pushes to 71,5k for its duration. That means HotW would add roughly 1,665 million healing assuming I was healing full-time. Which is 375k more than NV did, while NV also did 540k damage. Having a hard time seeing how I could deal 540k during HotW while not losing more than 375k healing, even if HotW in reality would do slightly better than numbers above cause of utilizing the pre-pot, something my NV did not.

So by that calculation, I come to the conclusion that NV is just straight up better in this example, on top of that, I never have to stop healing in order to deal damage with NV, and at the same time it's also adding some-what respectable numbers.

If my calculations are just completely wrong, that might be because it's 3 am and I'm incredibly tired as I'm typing this out. Feel free to correct me or call me an idiot. Here are the logs I used: (add warcraftlogs.com yourself) /reports/rHFkWvCgLtd7Zn2X#fight=7&type=healing

[theburned]

1. HotW versus NV

NV is a bit of both worlds, you get some damage and you get some healing, at butcher I was able to pull 880k damage, without stopping to deal damage, I agree I could go HotW to dish out more damage, but we were using runes for our kill, and if people die because some healer was dpsing instead of healing, people would be a bit angry, so I decided to push some dps with NV instead, and unlike HotW it allowed me to get some extra healing and damage contribution sub 30%.
While HotW is more of a either full dps or full heal talent, you spend 45 sec doing more healing, or you spend most of that time dishing out damage. Due to BL and the nature of how the talent works your dps will do way more dps, if you use it during BL and you are required to heal during BL, most commonly on pull.
as for DoC, I feel the talent can be utilize when running low regen builds, with SotF for small bursty aoe heals (which seems to be a lot of in BRF, gruul, oregorger, blast furnace, flamebender, kromog to some extent, I suppose beastlord too.)

2. ToL and why you wouldn't always want to use it

basically because the nature of how most of the encounters are made, I run with SotF, due to how bursty the raid damage seems to be, as mentioned earlier all damage comes in continously pulsing waves, with some duration between them, where we have the choice, between a small bit of extra oomph during most/every pulse, or 30 seconds where you will be powered up like a motherfucker, topping off people, every 3 min...
in some fights where you have phases where you struggle, but get it easier down the road, or the otherway around, ToL is better, but SotF still competes.

3. The upcoming change to MoC

Gonna make it stronger, going to change the playstyle to quite some heavy degree, but will be very valuable on fights where you go oom, or with heavy tank healing, also the utility of spamming regrowths won't be very needed due to our 2p covering most of our requirements for spamming 3-6 regrowths in a row. Will make regrowth a lot more valuable during BL though, thus can be something to consider if BL is used for "defensive" purposes, 30% hp enrage etc, kromog comes to mind, as a fight where this fight can be very valuable.

4. Refreshing Harmony

I feel HT is a very clunky spell, first you spend time casting it, suddenly that player is full hp before you even get the cast off, then you just have to stop casting it, and then you are left with no harmony uptime or 3.3k mana wasted, with swiftmend you are quite sure to actually get some heals off so that another healer won't spend mana healing it (why would you care, resto druids are the only ones with mana issues.) also the cast time (you miss if you don't cast it) is time you could spend moving or throwing a wrath, also running with a sotf build I would prio swiftmend as even if the buff is just used on a regrowth or a rejuv it's extra healing, and 40-105k at that.

[Ctee]

1. HotW versus NV

NV is a bit of both worlds, you get some damage and you get some healing, at butcher I was able to pull 880k damage, without stopping to deal damage, I agree I could go HotW to dish out more damage, but we were using runes for our kill, and if people die because some healer was dpsing instead of healing, people would be a bit angry, so I decided to push some dps with NV instead, and unlike HotW it allowed me to get some extra healing and damage contribution sub 30%.
While HotW is more of a either full dps or full heal talent, you spend 45 sec doing more healing, or you spend most of that time dishing out damage. Due to BL and the nature of how the talent works your dps will do way more dps, if you use it during BL and you are required to heal during BL, most commonly on pull.
as for DoC, I feel the talent can be utilize when running low regen builds, with SotF for small bursty aoe heals (which seems to be a lot of in BRF, gruul, oregorger, blast furnace, flamebender, kromog to some extent, I suppose beastlord too.)

2. ToL and why you wouldn't always want to use it

basically because the nature of how most of the encounters are made, I run with SotF, due to how bursty the raid damage seems to be, as mentioned earlier all damage comes in continously pulsing waves, with some duration between them, where we have the choice, between a small bit of extra oomph during most/every pulse, or 30 seconds where you will be powered up like a motherfucker, topping off people, every 3 min...
in some fights where you have phases where you struggle, but get it easier down the road, or the otherway around, ToL is better, but SotF still competes.

3. The upcoming change to MoC

Gonna make it stronger, going to change the playstyle to quite some heavy degree, but will be very valuable on fights where you go oom, or with heavy tank healing, also the utility of spamming regrowths won't be very needed due to our 2p covering most of our requirements for spamming 3-6 regrowths in a row. Will make regrowth a lot more valuable during BL though, thus can be something to consider if BL is used for "defensive" purposes, 30% hp enrage etc, kromog comes to mind, as a fight where this fight can be very valuable.

4. Refreshing Harmony

I feel HT is a very clunky spell, first you spend time casting it, suddenly that player is full hp before you even get the cast off, then you just have to stop casting it, and then you are left with no harmony uptime or 3.3k mana wasted, with swiftmend you are quite sure to actually get some heals off so that another healer won't spend mana healing it (why would you care, resto druids are the only ones with mana issues.) also the cast time (you miss if you don't cast it) is time you could spend moving or throwing a wrath, also running with a sotf build I would prio swiftmend as even if the buff is just used on a regrowth or a rejuv it's extra healing, and 40-105k at that.

Are you not having mana issues right now with SotF? Are you SMing on CD? What happens when SM is off CD and there's raid damage when you could have used SM > WG? Do you just normal WG? All of that to me is almost too situational.

I've been wiping all night on H Blast Furnace messing with ToL+MoC. Nothing is sweeter when I'm in tree popping instant cast RG's for free. When it gets buffed, game over. I'm also curious to know how the HPM/HPS is with ToL + WG Glyph versus SotF + WG Glyph.

SotF, to me, seems like something more viable with gear...I don't know. This ToL+MoC thing is pretty insane though.

[theburned]

Are you not having mana issues right now with SotF? Are you SMing on CD? What happens when SM is off CD and there's raid damage when you could have used SM > WG? Do you just normal WG? All of that to me is almost too situational.

I've been wiping all night on H Blast Furnace messing with ToL+MoC. Nothing is sweeter when I'm in tree popping instant cast RG's for free. When it gets buffed, game over. I'm also curious to know how the HPM/HPS is with ToL + WG Glyph versus SotF + WG Glyph.

SotF, to me, seems like something more viable with gear...I don't know. This ToL+MoC thing is pretty insane though.

Personally I use DoC for that fight, rather add some dps than stand half of the time doing nothing, while saving mana, and yeah I go oom if I just spam it on cd, but in reality you won't do that it's not cata nor MoP where you could just spam SM wild growth on cd.
There are rare ocassions where I would consider it worth it to just use wild growth without SM, and that is life or death cases, you know there is some incoming damage, and in most cases if SM is on cd I am better off just throwing out a few rejuvs/regrowth(s), regrowth cases will most likely save people more than a regular WG and rejuvs will be more effective or pretty much the same as WG in terms of overhealing and thus HPM.
later on in p2 the damage ramps up, but there is pretty much sustained damage, so just putting in a few SM wild growths can be really worth your time.
in p1 I dps most of the time, focusing the operator helps a little in terms of damage in later phases (the faster they go down the faster the bosses loses heat below the threshold in last phase, thus you he only gains 13 energy pr 2 seconds instead of 22 or 23.
HotW can be really strong here, but when I tried it, I ended up standing still for too long, just spamming wrath anyway, though it felt wrong the theory behind it is that you can spend your p1 time to burst down operators, thus less heat and in later phases of the fight you can use it just when p3 starts to stabalize the group, preferably with tranq.

why you would not be running germination though feels weird to me, currently with the 5 sec MoC its just not having anything to it's advantage, it makes you able to spam a spell you would normally not be casting, thus the chances of actually getting a regrowth cast <1 sec after the proc is very small, unless you are spending precious time baiting regrowths when you could be doing something slightly useful like throwing a wrath. then you have like 1.1-1.4 sec regrowths, lets assume you take 0.5 sec reaction time to the buff, should be more than fair, considering gcd, and otherwise reaction time/lagg. You might get off around 3 regrowths, this requires you the stand still for the 4 seconds casting, with ToL the cast is at the start of the gcd rather than after thus you will get off one extra, Also during BL you will both get more proccs, and you will be able to cast of an additional cast, thus leaving you with 5 casts.
With perfect playstyle the talent might be debateable, but the playstyle requires that you know which targets to heal, and in what order. Also there is a good reason the talent is being buffed by 50-60% (2 sec might only sound like 1 extra cast, but it should amount for around 2 casts considering how badly/how well the casts pre-buff fits in.) 3 casts -> 5 casts.
To me it just doesn't make sense how this talent can be used in it's current state, because it requires perfect execution and still then it sounds a bit meh.
And most people I've seen use it comes with answers like "it's great with 3 heals with no cost when oom"...you shouldn't really allow your playstyle to let you go oom in the first place, and if you do you want to handle it with a cheaper talent like DoC...
In terms of healing DoC really isn't good though, it doesn't do much useful healing, but it makes your playstyle a lot more forgiving, and in terms of combined dps and healing it's somewhat decent, at least it's getting buffed by 15%, thus excelling more at doing this.

Also a lot of mana issues can be blamed on being too liberal with your mana during low damage phases, we really aren't well suited for low damage phases, except for mushroom... thus keeping up mastery, lifebloom and spamming wrath, using regrowth proccs is only things you should do then, other classes got way cheaper/better toolkits for handling them... if they come at the start staying mana neutral is okay, but if they come at later stages you need to regain mana.


as for ToL WG vs SotF wg, ToL increases SotF HPM/HPE by 33% including the 15% that gives roughly 53% effectiveness gain, lets round it downwards, and it equals that of SotF.
Depending on encounter swiftmend won't overheal at all when combined with WG, (if you are preparing WG basically just to snipe heals, flamebender anyone? you won't get the effectiveness of swiftmend though.)
though 16k mana for the 50% increase thus it's mana cost is 33% higher thus the HPM for SotF is 25%(turn it around and ToL is 33% stronger) weaker than ToL WG.
Just using a log from my raid today, with 38% overhealing with WG and 0% OH with SM it's 1/6 of the WG heal, for 1/3 of it's cost, thus we can count out 2k of the mana (I can do this because, the relative strength between ToL and sotf wg is so close) reducing the difference in half thus 12.5%/16.7% (again depending on how you look at it)
also it means that the HPC is roughly 70% stronger (please correct me if I am wrong, getting tired here, and this number is not exactly important) roughly double if you count out the swiftmend.
Though in the end you can cast that one 3 times pr 3 minute at most....
these are all relative values though... the actual numbers for sotf and non sotf WGs can be somewhere in other threads..

there is barely any mana issues when using sotf WG, and just maintaining cheap spells, and harmony, the issue comes when you are starting to throw in too many rejuvs, though on the other hand this allows you to convert mana into actual healing, instead of just being a bit more free with your mana... Thus having more mana from DoC/buffed-MoC will be great.

[Ctee]

Personally I use DoC for that fight, rather add some dps than stand half of the time doing nothing, while saving mana, and yeah I go oom if I just spam it on cd, but in reality you won't do that it's not cata nor MoP where you could just spam SM wild growth on cd.
There are rare ocassions where I would consider it worth it to just use wild growth without SM, and that is life or death cases, you know there is some incoming damage, and in most cases if SM is on cd I am better off just throwing out a few rejuvs/regrowth(s), regrowth cases will most likely save people more than a regular WG and rejuvs will be more effective or pretty much the same as WG in terms of overhealing and thus HPM.
later on in p2 the damage ramps up, but there is pretty much sustained damage, so just putting in a few SM wild growths can be really worth your time.
in p1 I dps most of the time, focusing the operator helps a little in terms of damage in later phases (the faster they go down the faster the bosses loses heat below the threshold in last phase, thus you he only gains 13 energy pr 2 seconds instead of 22 or 23.
HotW can be really strong here, but when I tried it, I ended up standing still for too long, just spamming wrath anyway, though it felt wrong the theory behind it is that you can spend your p1 time to burst down operators, thus less heat and in later phases of the fight you can use it just when p3 starts to stabalize the group, preferably with tranq.

why you would not be running germination though feels weird to me, currently with the 5 sec MoC its just not having anything to it's advantage, it makes you able to spam a spell you would normally not be casting, thus the chances of actually getting a regrowth cast <1 sec after the proc is very small, unless you are spending precious time baiting regrowths when you could be doing something slightly useful like throwing a wrath. then you have like 1.1-1.4 sec regrowths, lets assume you take 0.5 sec reaction time to the buff, should be more than fair, considering gcd, and otherwise reaction time/lagg. You might get off around 3 regrowths, this requires you the stand still for the 4 seconds casting, with ToL the cast is at the start of the gcd rather than after thus you will get off one extra, Also during BL you will both get more proccs, and you will be able to cast of an additional cast, thus leaving you with 5 casts.
With perfect playstyle the talent might be debateable, but the playstyle requires that you know which targets to heal, and in what order. Also there is a good reason the talent is being buffed by 50-60% (2 sec might only sound like 1 extra cast, but it should amount for around 2 casts considering how badly/how well the casts pre-buff fits in.) 3 casts -> 5 casts.
To me it just doesn't make sense how this talent can be used in it's current state, because it requires perfect execution and still then it sounds a bit meh.
And most people I've seen use it comes with answers like "it's great with 3 heals with no cost when oom"...you shouldn't really allow your playstyle to let you go oom in the first place, and if you do you want to handle it with a cheaper talent like DoC...
In terms of healing DoC really isn't good though, it doesn't do much useful healing, but it makes your playstyle a lot more forgiving, and in terms of combined dps and healing it's somewhat decent, at least it's getting buffed by 15%, thus excelling more at doing this.

Also a lot of mana issues can be blamed on being too liberal with your mana during low damage phases, we really aren't well suited for low damage phases, except for mushroom... thus keeping up mastery, lifebloom and spamming wrath, using regrowth proccs is only things you should do then, other classes got way cheaper/better toolkits for handling them... if they come at the start staying mana neutral is okay, but if they come at later stages you need to regain mana.


as for ToL WG vs SotF wg, ToL increases SotF HPM/HPE by 33% including the 15% that gives roughly 53% effectiveness gain, lets round it downwards, and it equals that of SotF.
Depending on encounter swiftmend won't overheal at all when combined with WG, (if you are preparing WG basically just to snipe heals, flamebender anyone? you won't get the effectiveness of swiftmend though.)
though 16k mana for the 50% increase thus it's mana cost is 33% higher thus the HPM for SotF is 25%(turn it around and ToL is 33% stronger) weaker than ToL WG.
Just using a log from my raid today, with 38% overhealing with WG and 0% OH with SM it's 1/6 of the WG heal, for 1/3 of it's cost, thus we can count out 2k of the mana (I can do this because, the relative strength between ToL and sotf wg is so close) reducing the difference in half thus 12.5%/16.7% (again depending on how you look at it)
also it means that the HPC is roughly 70% stronger (please correct me if I am wrong, getting tired here, and this number is not exactly important) roughly double if you count out the swiftmend.
Though in the end you can cast that one 3 times pr 3 minute at most....
these are all relative values though... the actual numbers for sotf and non sotf WGs can be somewhere in other threads..

there is barely any mana issues when using sotf WG, and just maintaining cheap spells, and harmony, the issue comes when you are starting to throw in too many rejuvs, though on the other hand this allows you to convert mana into actual healing, instead of just being a bit more free with your mana... Thus having more mana from DoC/buffed-MoC will be great.

You're kind of all over the place and I'm unsure where you personally stand.

[theburned]

You're kind of all over the place and I'm unsure where you personally stand.

Well I can totally see how can have that issue so let me narrow it down a little bit.

I consider that it's important to be greedy on your mana during low damage phases.
I tend to prefer NV over HotW on most fights where I can't utilize the damage portion of HotW.
Sometimes I use DoC instead of NV due to rather wanting my wrath casts to do something, rather than just damage.
I think MoC is a shit talent... and it needs a buff quite badly, which is coming. Germination is the go to choice, and only very few super situational times where you should not consider it. (also the math in the other post clearly does not calculate the regrowth from OoC.)
I use SotF as my go to choice, ofc I swap in case the encounter feels like it isn't necessary or needs some heavy healing during a few phases.
I consider ToL to be both a mana cd thus I really don't like using Wild growth during it.
Also Wild growth is mostly not worth casting unless you can boost it or the burst healing is needed, also the buffed rejuvs during ToL gets buffed more than Wild growths and also the mana cost is reduced by 30%, so unless you actually need the aoe healing quickly you shouldn't be using WG during it (obviously some situations where it should be used due to higher HPC though.)

Probably the fault for being so all over the place is due to all talents (in question) being fairly equal, with small advantages, which can be neglected by playstyle diffrences.

[Ctee]

Thank you.

Do you find that when you choose HotW, you pop it at least twice a fight? One time for the wrath dps increase and the other for the healing increase? Is that the biggest benefit over DoC?

[theburned]

Thank you.

Do you find that when you choose HotW, you pop it at least twice a fight? One time for the wrath dps increase and the other for the healing increase? Is that the biggest benefit over DoC?

It is perfectly viable or the best choice even if you only pop it once. Butcher is a perfect example for this where you can use either the healing portion during frenzy, or the dps portion at the start to help with the enrage.
it certainly helps if you are able to cast it twice, but I prefer being able to use it during trinket/BL/pot for more damage.

as for blast furnace we just 2 shot it after wiping all day yday, tried hotw/ToL
it was beyond terrible though... 80k raw hps during p3 with HotW ToL Tranq.... 55k hps during that phase is awful... was no damage except for tank damage...

[AberrantJ]

Are you not having mana issues right now with SotF? Are you SMing on CD? What happens when SM is off CD and there's raid damage when you could have used SM > WG? Do you just normal WG? All of that to me is almost too situational.

Not really. No, but quite frequently. I cast WG without SotF (if you need to WG: you WG. You wouldn't NOT cast WG just because ToL was on CD, would you? If the situation calls for a WG then in probably calls for it regardless of talents and other CDs).

[Vse]

Hmm, I still don't see the utility of NV over DoC or HOTW - but that could be because I very rarely run Incarnation. I also wouldn't cast WG without a SOTF buff, and I would try to not cast hundreds of rejuvs if I were sotf/wg. DoC helps with the mana issue and I tend to get more healing (for sure) and comparable dmg? If I was running TOL, probably wouldn't cast WG unless it wouldn't overheal at all - and if a fight has a lot of moments where my WG wouldn't overheal much I'd be running sotf wg.


For Example, if I have enough down time between heavy raid dmg, I'd want DoC to heal tanks/do dmg. If the fight didn't have down time where I could actively cast wrath for healing, then I'd want to run HoTW, since it is a strong healing CD. Maybe incarn/hotw but NV makes no sense! Maybe I'm not understanding it. I might have to buckle down and do some calculations to finally determine what is better but just using my judgement I can't see the advantage.

I also find that NV is only strong (heh) if used with ToL, which really cuts down your healing CDs. You won't have anything other than tranq for the inbetween, and you wouldn't tranq in tree since NV doesn't have an effect on tranq. Also, I think that HoTW being cast OVER your Tranquility is usually not a great idea. Sure it makes it stronger but tranq is already very strong and prone to overhealing that the buff is somewhat wasted. HotW is best used as a filler when you don't have tranq up, and if you are also running Tree, you have an insane set of mini CDs to help with burst healing. Or you can run DoC in between if you're having mana issues keeping up with all this raid dmg

[theburned]

Hmm, I still don't see the utility of NV over DoC or HOTW - but that could be because I very rarely run Incarnation. I also wouldn't cast WG without a SOTF buff, and I would try to not cast hundreds of rejuvs if I were sotf/wg. DoC helps with the mana issue and I tend to get more healing (for sure) and comparable dmg? If I was running TOL, probably wouldn't cast WG unless it wouldn't overheal at all - and if a fight has a lot of moments where my WG wouldn't overheal much I'd be running sotf wg.


For Example, if I have enough down time between heavy raid dmg, I'd want DoC to heal tanks/do dmg. If the fight didn't have down time where I could actively cast wrath for healing, then I'd want to run HoTW, since it is a strong healing CD. Maybe incarn/hotw but NV makes no sense! Maybe I'm not understanding it. I might have to buckle down and do some calculations to finally determine what is better but just using my judgement I can't see the advantage.

I also find that NV is only strong (heh) if used with ToL, which really cuts down your healing CDs. You won't have anything other than tranq for the inbetween, and you wouldn't tranq in tree since NV doesn't have an effect on tranq. Also, I think that HoTW being cast OVER your Tranquility is usually not a great idea. Sure it makes it stronger but tranq is already very strong and prone to overhealing that the buff is somewhat wasted. HotW is best used as a filler when you don't have tranq up, and if you are also running Tree, you have an insane set of mini CDs to help with burst healing. Or you can run DoC in between if you're having mana issues keeping up with all this raid dmg

While I agree on pretty much everything in the start though there are some exceptions... Blackhand e.g. is a fight where DoC is pretty much useless, there is too much movement and just not enough down time, at least in normal the time between 1st and last phase was too short for 2 hotw when you actually wanted them.
I have to agree NV is a lot stronger with ToL and thus becomes one of the better talents combined, though I found that on butcher NV came in handy it helped me dishing out damage while still healing like regular 880k damage over the 4 min, hotw will only give either damage or healing, I felt I needed both thus NV was better. This was with a SotF build, if there was any question about that.

Tranq + hotw can be good in certain situations ko'ragh really coming to mind, on the 2nd tranq you would really appreciate a 35% healing boost, due to the healing absorb, this is a rare case though, phases of really high pulsating damage at a closer rate to your tranq.

you are also dismissing the fact that WG has a really high HPE unlike rejuvenation, which makes it the better choice in some situations. Also unless you are using SotF you want to use it as your mana burn spell, when you got mana to burn and won't need more at the end


The biggest selling point for me on SotF DoC build is that you can rejuv someone, swiftmend, lifebloom/mushroom management, DoC until anticipated damage, if the damage wave lasts for roughly 15 seconds you can get out 2 wild growths with the SotF buff within 12 seconds of each other.

[nightfalls]

SotF/DoC just offers a finer layer of control for the whole fight in my books. You have constant ability to use big SotF while filling with DoC. You also have the option (even at a theoretical throughput loss) for SotF/RG/Rejuv to handle big single target damage.

That said I can still definitely think of spots for HotW or "standard" Rejuv (NV/ToL) build.

[Vse]

Tranq + hotw can be good in certain situations ko'ragh really coming to mind, on the 2nd tranq you would really appreciate a 35% healing boost, due to the healing absorb, this is a rare case though, phases of really high pulsating damage at a closer rate to your tranq.

This is a very good point, and I think the only time where I did overlap my tranq with my Hotw. However it was near the end of my HoTW as I needed to use HotW to catch up on healing, then tranq (After Shadow) for even more recovery. I enjoyed that fight.

I'm still not sure about DoC on blackhand. I'm not sure about movement issues as I don't feel like there was too much movement. Phase 3 is probably the only time in that fight when I probably wouldnt' be using DoC - but that's the point of DoC to have enough mana going into p3 that you can just heal like a monster. It feels similar to Mythic Imp (where DoC was very strong) but I'm still fiddling. I may have done better on my parse if I had ran Hotw, or even ToL/HotW, but I'm not sure.

[Deleted]

Well, generally, what I have been running with. If there is a specific phase that requires me to get a lot of healing done, while the other phases are meh, you go HotW. If you need damage on a short bossfight you go HotW. If you need to conserve your mana AND can afford to cast Wrath instead of rejuvenations, go DoC. In every other situation I usually go NV.