I'm starting to relate to nationalists (Friendly discussion, share your opinions)

[Acidbaron]

Deleth you're missing the point on a few things i'm making and seem to be very much against the whole concept of migration even much so that you come across even repulsed by the idea of migrants and that's all just their fault nothing to do the situation they came in, i don't believe in such simple theories that one side is exclusively to blame for a scenario multiple parties are involved, so i'm not going to go on this merry-go-round.

Whats' i'm speaking of is also mentioned in this article about canada and the issue i'm speaking off, http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11...n_1074203.html

and with that i'm rounding up as i have some things i want to do and i'm expected to raid tonight

[Cronch]

where did i say i deny climate change?

no really, point it out.

now.

if you can't please go fuck a goat.


here, this explains the full science behind it.

there is change happening, and we're not causing it.

You're correct, climate change is happening. But the fact that you specifically used the term "global warming" (a term which hasn't been used in real climate science for a while now) shows just what message you're trying to project. Manmade climate change is a real thing, and you won't find a single reputable source that claims otherwise. Even the walking flank steak that is Schwarzenegger is able to see that now.

That's not how that works or ever worked. The reason for the population crisis and overaging is mostly to blame on modern technology and progress and in the long run should work itself out. Trying to fix that with mass immigration is a recipe for disaster since you effectively only end up making something bad even worse and more menacing to the inhabitants of said country.

Note that I never said mass immigration, just immigration. An uncontrolled mass influx of people will cause chaos, regardless of their country of origin. That's not an immigration thing, that's common sense.

Even then it would be a horribly allegory because in a very nasty way it merely helps furthering his argument. Said immigration was violent, destructive and put the former inhabitants of the country in a really bad spot that on the long run will most likely end with their complete annihilation and absorbtion into the country that arose from that mass immigration putting an end to their culture and civilization.

White immigration to the New World was brutal, violent, and plague-ridden, but I don't know how this is supposed to be a condemnation of modern immigration. These days mass immigration that results in the deaths of the majority of the native population is generally properly documented as genocide.

And trying to bring in people from somewhere else to fix a demographic minus that would eventually even itself out anyway is a recipe for disaster. Because it ignores that people have different customs, values, religions and world views thus producing conflict and strife making said process of a demographic minus even more scary and threatening.

Hangups with integration into a new society is a problem, I'll agree with you there. But the answer isn't to just kick them out or force them to give up all of their beliefs. I believe even the OP said in this thread that he would never completely give up his culture/values/beliefs. Why would you ask immigrants to do so if you refuse? It's all about compromise. Just because they're from a different place than you doesn't mean you are somehow superior or that you can control their behavior. They have to follow the laws of their host country, but that's not usually the problem and not really what this is about anyway.

[taliey]

And this is the reason why I didn't want to go into depth on affirmative action. Reading the last 4 pages turn into a climate change denial thread is really appropriate in an immigration thread.

[mordale]

You're correct, climate change is happening. But the fact that you specifically used the term "global warming" (a term which hasn't been used in real climate science for a while now) shows just what message you're trying to project. Manmade climate change is a real thing, and you won't find a single reputable source that claims otherwise.

so... i take it you didn't watch the video i linked...

what you mean by "reputable" is "they agree with my pre-conceived world-view and is thus correct", the only thing that's "reputable" is the facts put forward.

not who is putting them forward.

your rejection based on source is a logical fallacy called "ad hominum".
in which rather then addressing the argument you attack the arguer.
your rejection based on perceive public acceptance of your stance is called "appeal to popularity".
while the title is self-explanatory it's basically saying "everyone knows the world is flat, so there it's flat and you are wrong that it's round".

[grimsanta]

An 18-19 year old who hasn't actually contributed jack to society is complaining about others taking away from things that he hasn't actually paid much into.

Laughable.

[Cthulhu 2020]

so... i take it you didn't watch the video i linked...

what you mean by "reputable" is "they agree with my pre-conceived world-view and is thus correct", the only thing that's "reputable" is the facts put forward.

not who is putting them forward.

your rejection based on source is a logical fallacy called "ad hominum".
in which rather then addressing the argument you attack the arguer.
your rejection based on perceive public acceptance of your stance is called "appeal to popularity".
while the title is self-explanatory it's basically saying "everyone knows the world is flat, so there it's flat and you are wrong that it's round".

So you're going to take one guy's word and ignore the thousands of other climate scientists (not astrophysicists who think they know what climate is) and say that other people ignore the "evidence?"

I couldn't even cut the irony with a knife.

[mordale]

So you're going to take one guy's word and ignore the thousands of other climate scientists (not astrophysicists who think they know what climate is) and say that other people ignore the "evidence?"

I couldn't even cut the irony with a knife.

no, i didn't take his word.

i looked at his information.

then i checked it.


and what you just did is called straw-manning.
crating a faulty image or interpretation of your opponent's stance in an effort to circumvent the argument by attacking said straw-man.

watch the video, and judge for yourself the information put forward.

[taliey]

This is all magical thinking.

Here's what really happens:

People come from impoverished third world countries, are eligible to go on life long disability after working here for 6 months. So they work for 6 months, and then get some minor injury at work, and collect government assistance for the rest of their life (while moving back to their home country).

Or, they come to Canada, work, make money, live in groups of 10-20 so they can economize majorly and live for pennies on the dollar, then go home every year and spend the majority of their money in their home country, effectively removing money from the Canadian economy.

The majority do want to come to Canada and embrace the Canadian way of life, but the ones who don't ruin Canada for everybody.

To make things worse many provinces offer payroll subsidies from time to time to companies that hire minority workers. In essence they are bribing companies to hire non white people.

And then the fact that you have hundreds of thousands of Canadians who can't find work, on top of hundreds of thousands of temporary foreign workers diluting the labour market in favor of employers.

There's also very poor controls on the purchase of Canadian real estate by foreigners. Which has driven real estate prices through the fucking roof.

And none of the political parties are even willing to address these issues, not even the conservatives.

And before you go posting some meme of a native american, I'm half Metis, so don't even try. And my mother is a Scottish immigrant. I'm not against immigration, I just think there needs to be far stricter controls on the hiring of foreign workers (i.e. no temporary foreign workers unless there is actually a Canada wide labour shortage) and anybody who comes to Canada as a refugee, should have their visa, and the contents of any Canadian bank account confiscated if they return to their home country before the alleged issue from which they seek refuge is resolved. And non citizens should be outright prevented from owning real estate in Canada.

I haven't accused anyone of anything, so you can rest assured I'm not going to accuse you of anything.

Alright, so these foreign workers, temporary visa workers (24 month stay) can work for 6 month, fake or get some sort of minor injury in the process, and then become eligible for disability pension income for the rest of their lives. I'm just wondering where are the internal controls designated to prevent this kind of stuff.

You're saying that they defraud worker's compensation, which I find surprising, because you know, the whole anti-labor thing is going on in the backdrop.

The second point I want to make - corporate welfare. Well then, who's really the source of this? The businesses that utilize (and probably negotiated) such a policy.

It serves to leverage in favor of the companies.

There hasn't really been much new ground covered.

[Cronch]

so... i take it you didn't watch the video i linked...

what you mean by "reputable" is "they agree with my pre-conceived world-view and is thus correct", the only thing that's "reputable" is the facts put forward.

not who is putting them forward.

your rejection based on source is a logical fallacy called "ad hominum".
in which rather then addressing the argument you attack the arguer.
your rejection based on perceive public acceptance of your stance is called "appeal to popularity".
while the title is self-explanatory it's basically saying "everyone knows the world is flat, so there it's flat and you are wrong that it's round".

You can list as many fallacies as you want but the work of thousands of climate scientists across the globe doesn't go away because you linked a video that may as well have come from infowars. I don't believe those scientists because it's popular to do so, I believe them because they're the only side that's provided actual evidence backed by hard science. The "scientists" who say manmade climate change isn't real are pretty easily debunked if you look into the "sources" they're citing.

[Invrlose]

Really? Let's not talk about climate change in here. As for my European ancestry, in 1901 our population was 90,000 people in my province. For an area of land twice the size of Germany. There was basically nobody here. Europeans came and broke the land and actually made it inhabitable here. Most farmers didn't even get a proper crop until their fourth or fifth year. So for the first five years most of them were barely surviving, with little to no outside help. Winters are long and hard here going from.about November to match?, sometimes extending in to April. My white European ancestors basically came to a desolate frozen wasteland and helped turn it in to one of the world's largest suppliers of grain, uranium, potash and other natural resources. That is completely different than coming to a country that has been established now for a few generations and being a drain on the economy. I've got no problem with immigrants coming to work and contribute. But they should not be given more opportunities than me, that is unfair and actually kind of prejudiced.

- - - Updated - - -

Uhm........ something does not add up here for me....

A college kid claims to be a middle class tax payer?
School is free in Canada, is it? Means...... Until you're done with school (University is a school too) then you're taking out taxes, and don't put much in, if any at all (aside from the taxes everyone pays).
This confuses me....honestly...
But until you're a stable part of the workforce, you have no such valid claim as "middle class tax payer".

This is, to not even touch the various other reasons that lead you to a false assumption.

No school is not free in canada. Its going to cost me about 4000 a term. Just because I'm going to university doesn't mean I just graduated high school yesterday. I've been working for 2 years in construction and mining to save up, and paying taxes on that. My first year working I had 3 different jobs but all in a potash mine and I made 65,000. I paid taxes on that. last year I only made 32,000 but I paid taxes on that as well. I'm a tax payer. I pay taxes to the government in trust that they will take those public funds and increase quality of life for other tax payers.

[ati87]

What people like the OP do not understand, is this is exactly why Canada, and the US are so good at integrating their immigrants.

Education, and being exposed to other young peers, is the best way to assimilate an immigrant into the countries culture.

This is why on the whole, the US and Canada have a much lower number of people supporting ISIS/terrorists.

Oh what? You mean to say that telling immigrants that they are 2e rate citizens and that they should just bow their heads isn't helpfull?

/end sarcasm

Above reason is what happens in Europe allot. As a child of immigrants in Netherlands I've been told by politicians and by the newspapers that my background is stupid (sometimes they litterly say that) and that their is a high probability that I'm a ''punk''.

However given recent investigation that showed a clear bias in the justice system where people with a different ethnic background where punished more heavily or more often then the '''good'' native citizens for the same crime committed I will question every statistic and investigation that shows that immigrants are the problem.

[Invrlose]

Oh what? You mean to say that telling immigrants that they are 2e rate citizens and that they should just bow their heads isn't helpfull?

/end sarcasm

Above reason is what happens in Europe allot. As a child of immigrants in Netherlands I've been told by politicians and by the newspapers that my background is stupid (sometimes they litterly say that) and that their is a high probability that I'm a ''punk''.

However given recent investigation that showed a clear bias in the justice system where people with a different ethnic background where punished more heavily or more often then the '''good'' native citizens for the same crime committed I will question every statistic and investigation that shows that immigrants are the problem.

Europe is more liberal than canada or America, most European countries have laws against "hate speech" and some areas in the UK even have their own sharia courts for Muslim residents. Don't tell me Europe isn't tolerant of immigrants.

[Pua]

Hell, all western countries with immigration is scared shitless of immigration.

We Scots encourage it, and would like to see increased immigration into Scotland. This is largely due to an ageing population and no obvious short-term solution to it.

Pretty much.. The sentiment being that the only possibly way you can have issues with current immigration is if you're bigoted, scared, or clueless.

Yeah, it’s typically just an attempt to close down an argument (or start one, depending on what you want). It’s also extremely common on the Internet to see complicated and detailed issues mindlessly boiled down to polar extremes where you’re “for us, or against us”. Immigration is a very complicated and detailed issue, to the point where you can be both for it and against it depending on what context you’re specifically talking about. For example:

I support immigration into Scotland, because of the ageing population I mentioned earlier. There’s also a significant job market that requires immigrant workers who are happy to come here precisely because there’s work available for them.

On the other hand, I dislike the aspect of immigration that sees the free movement of organised crime throughout Europe and, potentially, into Scotland. But this is a problem with immigration policy rather than an immigrant population.

I dislike nationalism (and this is coming from an American).

I think it’s important to mention that, because I’m a Scot, nationalism means something slightly different here. The Scottish National Party now has very popular support in Scotland, not because it supports exclusion, but because it’s a party on the political left that Labour used to inhabit. Almost the sole reason the Scottish National Party exists is to gain independence from the rest of the United Kingdom because our political and cultural views are far more similar to mainland Europe than they are to England or the United States. We want to integrate better with European countries rather than being stifled with developing English views on immigration.

Scotland is essentially a left-leaning socialist country. England isn’t. Thanks to the union, our desire to chase policies that are far more in tune with the people of Scotland is harder than it should be. Most of us resent the fact that Scotland’s exceptional wealth is wasted on foreign (or illegal) wars, weapons of mass destruction, or propping up the financial sector in the city of London.

Most interestingly, it’s worth mentioning that while immigration is currently a big issue in England where a BrExit from the European Union is on the cards, such an event would trigger a second referendum in Scotland because we don’t want to leave the EU.

And so yet across all these similarities, all I really hear are Europeans contending that their situation with immigrants is "vastly different" and ultimately that "the immigrants are at fault here." And while the United States, historically, has had no paucity of "immigrant blaming," why is that not an issue now?

I think it’s a bit strange to conclude that America has no problems with immigrants. In fact, I’d say it’s flatly untrue. But the situation in Europe is very different; this is thanks to the European union. While Great Britain (mainly England) has seen large communities from the middle east develop over the last few decades, including Sharia courts, the Shengen travel area of the EU and free movement of peoples is a system that the United States doesn’t contend with.

This is the underlying message of the odious Nigel Farage and the UK Independence Party. They dislike the free movement of people in Europe because they believe it spreads crime much more freely. This isn’t an insensible stance to take, if you think about it. Why would Britain want her streets flooded with crime?

The problem with the UKIP is that they inflate the crime statistics, make several of them up, and then conflate other societal problems with mass immigration… Ignoring the facts as they do so. It’s an appeal to common sense, wrapped up with the truth deliberately concealed.

if you think little things as insignificant as us can effect the planet you should be sanctioned.

Haha, that made me laugh – I must admit.

The thread probably did need a bit of levity. Thanks for that, mordale.