Class balance in BRF?

[Aktec]

Plenty of other classes do plenty of other things just as well (and just as important) as moonkin's AOE, they just don't show up so boldly on WCL. All those things are just as much a part of class balance as damage done.

Sure I can agree with that, some fights are made much harder without pallies to bop or hunters to do moving dmg. But dps is such a huge part of wow nowadays. In this specific scenario having 8 boomkins on Kromag is going to make the fight a lot easier. It will break people out of the hands quicker and therefore people will take way less dmg, And overall the fight is going to be shorter because people are broken out quicker and can get back to dpsing the boss.
Now the main reason people want fights to be as short as possible is healer mana. A shorter fight means healers can use their mana more sparingly therefore they can recover from mistakes or just heal the dmg taken better.

The overall point I was trying to make was that of niches. Every class will do something better than most other classes like mages are best at soaking abilities with iceblock and g invis which can be a huge factor in making the fight easier. But there are also other classes who can too (pallies hunters etc) albeit worse because they have longer cds but still they can do it. But spread out aoe dmg (another niche) noone even comes close to moonkins.

[dr_AllCOM3]

What competitive guild would not take 4-5 hunters for every fight?

[Gnomorepuns]

This. Big dick dps =/= effective damage. Single target damage on slag elementals and elementalists is the most important part of the fight. For the cleave fights this tier I would recommend putting your recount on boss damage/important targets.

That phrase Big Dick makes me shutter. Heard that nonstop from my old officer, ugh. Makes me cringe. Only cared about numbers even if it was strictly mechanics that were wiping us.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/7#metric=bossdps its dmg to boss ranking, in foundry.

[Redpanda]

Imagine playing a feral on that fight :/

might as well Sudoku yourself

[Deleted]

Mind linking me some logs? Because, you know, I already killed blackhand on mythic so your opinion isn't valid...

Also, I'm talking hc furnace. Without overgearing it.

I know some guilds will obviously be able to kill it. I'm just saying with a boomkin it has to be so much easier since it does incredible damage on cleave fights. That's what's bothering me.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

[ddsad2212]

This. Big dick dps =/= effective damage. Single target damage on slag elementals and elementalists is the most important part of the fight. For the cleave fights this tier I would recommend putting your recount on boss damage/important targets.

Agree'd people really take numbers way to seriously, at the end of the day if you go full AoE dmg in Blast furnace you're going to struggle you really need to be able to single target nuke. As a Dk I can remember hardly using Blood boil in P2 to make sure I did as much single target as possible in order to quickly get through the phase, I could have probably added 20%+ to my dps but it would have over all been a hindrance to our chances of killing the boss

[rodney]

Mind linking me some logs? Because, you know, I already killed blackhand on mythic so your opinion isn't valid...

Also, I'm talking hc furnace. Without overgearing it.

I know some guilds will obviously be able to kill it. I'm just saying with a boomkin it has to be so much easier since it does incredible damage on cleave fights. That's what's bothering me.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

[Zautix]

This thread has already spiralled into full blow retardation, and even though the OP is clearly a baddy who can't articulate a proper argument, the reality is there is a huge, unignorable variance in class capability in BRF.

His example of Boomkins being ridiculous is extremely valid, not because their AOE damage is insane, but because their single target damage is also above average. The trade off the cast Starfall vs. Starsurge is almost inconsequential. This makes them ideal for literally any situation whereas classes with poor AOE (Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, etc.) are measurably inferior in every way; not only on Blast Furnace, but on any fight that isn't Oregorger or Gruul. By playing DPS classes that aren't as effective as a Boomkin you're making the encounters harder not because of a skill gap, but because someone played the create-a-character game wrong.

It's not even that Boomkins gain a lot from AOE fights, but that other classes that don't have naturally insane on-demand AOE. Warlocks can spec Cataclysm for fights like Thogar where it can be used to full effect throughout the entire fight, but using Cataclysm on Blast Furnace is a huge detriment to the raid because they're trading high single target for high AOE. Starfall doesn't have this trade off because it's not a talent. The only other non-talented ability that even compares to Starfall for AOE damage is Blade Flurry which literally replicates single target damage. It's also worth mentioning that using Blade Flurry hurts the Rogues single target damage far more than pressing Starfall does for a Boomkin in a non-ideal situation.

As it stands there is almost no reason at all to bring: Mut Rogues, non-SV Hunters, non-Demo locks, WW Monks, Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, Frost DKs, non-Arms Wars, Ele Shamans, or really any Mages at all.

BRF is going to end up like Sunwell all over again, and the fact that there isn't another raid coming out for months only reinforces the glaring discrepancies in class capabilities.

[Sierra85]

Boomkins are fine and they have a few good fights in BRF, so whats the big deal? warlocks were insane all of SoO...

[KaPe]

Boomkins are fine and they have a few good fights in BRF, so whats the big deal? warlocks were insane all of SoO...

One imbalance does not excuse another. You're not supposed to take turns at making classes too good, but to have them relatively equal.

[Tennis]

This thread has already spiralled into full blow retardation, and even though the OP is clearly a baddy who can't articulate a proper argument, the reality is there is a huge, unignorable variance in class capability in BRF.

His example of Boomkins being ridiculous is extremely valid, not because their AOE damage is insane, but because their single target damage is also above average. The trade off the cast Starfall vs. Starsurge is almost inconsequential. This makes them ideal for literally any situation whereas classes with poor AOE (Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, etc.) are measurably inferior in every way; not only on Blast Furnace, but on any fight that isn't Oregorger or Gruul. By playing DPS classes that aren't as effective as a Boomkin you're making the encounters harder not because of a skill gap, but because someone played the create-a-character game wrong.

It's not even that Boomkins gain a lot from AOE fights, but that other classes that don't have naturally insane on-demand AOE. Warlocks can spec Cataclysm for fights like Thogar where it can be used to full effect throughout the entire fight, but using Cataclysm on Blast Furnace is a huge detriment to the raid because they're trading high single target for high AOE. Starfall doesn't have this trade off because it's not a talent. The only other non-talented ability that even compares to Starfall for AOE damage is Blade Flurry which literally replicates single target damage. It's also worth mentioning that using Blade Flurry hurts the Rogues single target damage far more than pressing Starfall does for a Boomkin in a non-ideal situation.

As it stands there is almost no reason at all to bring: Mut Rogues, non-SV Hunters, non-Demo locks, WW Monks, Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, Frost DKs, non-Arms Wars, Ele Shamans, or really any Mages at all.

BRF is going to end up like Sunwell all over again, and the fact that there isn't another raid coming out for months only reinforces the glaring discrepancies in class capabilities.

Except that the top guilds are doing fine with all of those classes you listed. Seems like your information is incorrect and invalid honestly.

[infernity]

Hopefully the talent changes in 6.1 will make it better for classes that are lacking atm, set bonuses too. But anyone saying that certain classes don't have a large advantage is just dumb.

And while some specs can do ok, there is an alternative that can do considerably better :/

[Bullettime]

It's unfortunate that they used 6.1 to patch up class balance for a raid and then didn't drop the patch or the class changes in time for the fucking raid to even open.

There's quite a few balance tweaks, such as the large buffs to Shadow, that will be significant boons to the specs receiving them. But we're having to wait at least another week to receive them.

[Pur1tas]

To shift the discussion away from Furnace lets talk maidens, which is arguably the most cleave intensive fight.

Warlocks, Mages, Rogues, Warriors, Enhancers, Monks and probably even Elemental shamans are doing a lot better than Balance druids. And to be honest in that fight it is actually relevant dmg.

Just glancing over Warcraft logs Rankings I can see 3 fights where Balance druids actually seem to pull ahead. 3/10 = 30% (that math skills).

Arkane Mages rocking out on the first two bosses
Warlocks doing pretty good almost everywhere
Warriors and Monks all over the place as well
Some rogues, Some Elemental shamans and some Enhancement shamans.

What I see though is that shadows seem to not be that strong on most fights. (and tbh. I always thought they were useless :P )
Hunters and Paladins also look like no top notch on any fight but from raiding HC our Hunters and Paladins are doing good on all fights. Just not super duper great, but still well enough to take em with us.

So you looked at 3 bosses where Druids are actually doing great and say that class balance is fucked up. I think you have no clue about this game if you look at single boss fights and state that the whole raid is imbalanced in terms of which class is doing well and which is not. All classes can do well on all fights and as it has always been some classes are better in fight X and some are better in fight Y, while Other classes do equally well in most fights.

I do not want to say you are a little cry kid but it seems as if you just made this post because some Balance druid beat you on every boss.

[dracco4heads]

There is no doubt that boomkins are very overpowered in this raid, but you can certainly do it without

[Bullettime]

To shift the discussion away from Furnace lets talk maidens, which is arguably the most cleave intensive fight.

Warlocks, Mages, Rogues, Warriors, Enhancers, Monks and probably even Elemental shamans are doing a lot better than Balance druids. And to be honest in that fight it is actually relevant dmg.

Just glancing over Warcraft logs Rankings I can see 3 fights where Balance druids actually seem to pull ahead. 3/10 = 30% (that math skills).

Arkane Mages rocking out on the first two bosses
Warlocks doing pretty good almost everywhere
Warriors and Monks all over the place as well
Some rogues, Some Elemental shamans and some Enhancement shamans.

What I see though is that shadows seem to not be that strong on most fights. (and tbh. I always thought they were useless :P )
Hunters and Paladins also look like no top notch on any fight but from raiding HC our Hunters and Paladins are doing good on all fights. Just not super duper great, but still well enough to take em with us.

So you looked at 3 bosses where Druids are actually doing great and say that class balance is fucked up. I think you have no clue about this game if you look at single boss fights and state that the whole raid is imbalanced in terms of which class is doing well and which is not. All classes can do well on all fights and as it has always been some classes are better in fight X and some are better in fight Y, while Other classes do equally well in most fights.

I do not want to say you are a little cry kid but it seems as if you just made this post because some Balance druid beat you on every boss.

Shadow is pretty low end on everything except like Blackhand. CoP only offers slightly above average raw single target but zero AoE and cleaving power, while Auspicious Spirits (the AoE/extended multitarget) talent is dependent on 6.1 buffs and/or having a full set of BRF crit gear and the 4pc to be worthwhile. Void Entropy is basically worthless.

Basically, Shadow's cleave and AoE options are nonexistent due to garbage tuning until the 6.1 patch which corrects things a bit. Shadow will be fine after. Because it totally makes sense to make balance changes for BRF and then not release the changes with the raid.

[Deleted]

You cannot expect classes to be balanced for every single encounter. BRF has a lot of AoE, so Balance and Enhancement will do well. It's not that they are actually overpowered in the sense that they can do everything at anytime and be the best at it, no. The raid just fits nicely into a cleave's toolkit. What happens in 6.2 where most encounters are high movement single target fights? Are we going to nerf hunters and mages and buff other classes so they can close the small gap what is best and what is worst? I know some specs of classes are lacking, but unlike Highmaul there isn't a big discrepancy between what is best and what is worse on a class based level. (Every class has a spec that competes highly on any given fight)

With that said, some classes do need buffs across the board, similar to how monks needed to be nerfed at the start of the expansion because they were good at every single thing. Feral, Destruction, Affliction, Shadow and Frost (Both Mage and DK) need buffs, because they get outshined by other specs in all instances, unlike Enchancement or Balance or Unholy which drop down significantly in high movement or patchwerk based single target fights.

It's more of an encounter design issue than a class one. Blizzard definitely should have designed the raid with more single target classes in mind instead of giving nearly every fight an element of significant AoE.

[willemh]

This thread has already spiralled into full blow retardation, and even though the OP is clearly a baddy who can't articulate a proper argument, the reality is there is a huge, unignorable variance in class capability in BRF.

His example of Boomkins being ridiculous is extremely valid, not because their AOE damage is insane, but because their single target damage is also above average. The trade off the cast Starfall vs. Starsurge is almost inconsequential. This makes them ideal for literally any situation whereas classes with poor AOE (Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, etc.) are measurably inferior in every way; not only on Blast Furnace, but on any fight that isn't Oregorger or Gruul. By playing DPS classes that aren't as effective as a Boomkin you're making the encounters harder not because of a skill gap, but because someone played the create-a-character game wrong.

It's not even that Boomkins gain a lot from AOE fights, but that other classes that don't have naturally insane on-demand AOE. Warlocks can spec Cataclysm for fights like Thogar where it can be used to full effect throughout the entire fight, but using Cataclysm on Blast Furnace is a huge detriment to the raid because they're trading high single target for high AOE. Starfall doesn't have this trade off because it's not a talent. The only other non-talented ability that even compares to Starfall for AOE damage is Blade Flurry which literally replicates single target damage. It's also worth mentioning that using Blade Flurry hurts the Rogues single target damage far more than pressing Starfall does for a Boomkin in a non-ideal situation.

As it stands there is almost no reason at all to bring: Mut Rogues, non-SV Hunters, non-Demo locks, WW Monks, Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, Frost DKs, non-Arms Wars, Ele Shamans, or really any Mages at all.

BRF is going to end up like Sunwell all over again, and the fact that there isn't another raid coming out for months only reinforces the glaring discrepancies in class capabilities.

I'm really not sure what you're smoking when you say there is no point in bringing Mages when Paragon specificly swapped and geared up an alt mage into a main because they were so strong.

Mages are currently extremely strong both for cleave (fire) and for single target (arcane) and there are very few classes that will beat them on a mostly single target fight like Blackhand. In 5 out of the 10 fights in Foundry there are currently mages (either fire or arcane) in the top 10 overall damage done (Gruul, Oregorger, Flamebender, Iron Maidens, and most importantly Blackhand).

Mages also have proper survivability with greater invis (90% reduction) Iceblock/evanesce (complete immunity) and alter time (heal back to full health) and decent raid utlity (amplify magic) compared to for example warlocks (what do warlocks really bring to a raid these days when nobody uses healthstones?).

[Pur1tas]

I'm really not sure what you're smoking when you say there is no point in bringing Mages when Paragon specificly swapped and geared up an alt mage into a main because they were so strong.

Mages are currently extremely strong both for cleave (fire) and for single target (arcane) and there are very few classes that will beat them on a mostly single target fight like Blackhand. In 5 out of the 10 fights in Foundry there are currently mages (either fire or arcane) in the top 10 overall damage done (Gruul, Oregorger, Flamebender, Iron Maidens, and most importantly Blackhand).

Mages also have proper survivability with greater invis (90% reduction) Iceblock/evanesce (complete immunity) and alter time (heal back to full health) and decent raid utlity (amplify magic) compared to for example warlocks (what do warlocks really bring to a raid these days when nobody uses healthstones?).

Warlocks bring insane AoE dmg :P

But you are right Mages are fine and suprisingly there are little around as it seems (we have problems recruiting one or two).

To the Balance druids are OP thing its just wrong. They are good at what they are supposed to be good at and thats about it.

Also I think that the raid is designed well as there are single target fights, Cleave fights and AoE fights. we got everything within the 10 bosses and that is great. You will find yourself to be usefull on at least two fights in the raid (except if you are a shadow priest).

I see people saying "there are to many AoE fights" or "there are to many Cleave fights" and I call bullshit.

AoE fights:
Darmac
Train dude
1/2 of Kromog
1/2 of Furnace (if even)

Cleave fights:
Maidens
Hans and Franz (partly)

Single Target fights:
Flamebender
Gruul
Ore dude
Blackhand
the other half of Kromog
the other half of Furnace

So I think this is pretty well spread to be honest. OFC there are few fights where you actually only attack 1 thing all the time but if you want that you can go attack a boss pupet.