[Balance] Lets make Stellar Flare less bad.

[Cyous]

As we are almost all aware, Stellar Flare is a very lackluster talent. It has 'meh' damage. The mechanics of the spell are that of your generic damage-over-time spell from Vanilla. And it has some gameplay issues.

Going right to the heart of the matter, I've always liked Stellar Flare as a way to spice up Moonkin spellcasting. Here's a suggestion that needs scrutiny. I want to give Stellar Flare some serious incentives without making it mandatory, as it was during WOD Beta. I hope this suggestion would provide players of all skill-levels and gameplay another viable option (PVE, PVP :: raids, instances, arenas, rbgs, etc).

Stellar Flare: A powerful spell which benefits from both Lunar and Solar Eclipses, dealing the most damage when they are balanced. Burns the target for (39% of Spell power) Spellstorm damage, and then an additional (156% of Spell power) damage over 24 sec. Applies Moonfire or Sunfire to the target.

While in Lunar Eclipse, applies Moonfire.
While in Solar Eclipse, applies Sunfire.

Finer details:
- Moonfire and Sunfire applied this way benefit from Astral Showers (Moonfire becomes a 40sec DOT | Sunfire has 5-yard spread)
- Stellar Flare does not benefit from Astral Showers.
- Celestial Alignment would apply both Moonfire and Sunfire
- Direct damage from Moonfire and Sunfire do not occur. (Stellar Flare deals initial damage as normal.)

What does this simple change do compared to the current iteration?
1. Decreases our time spent casting DOTs in Multi-Target scenarios.
2. Flexible usage depending on Eclipse energy/playstyle.
3. Reduces complexity of juggling DOTs at a "robot" level.

1.) Decreasing our time spent chaining Stellar Flares and Moonfires is an automatic DPS gain. We're gaining damage from two sources: More hardcasts, and more DOT ticks. We spend fewer time spamming Stellar Flare or Moonfire/Sunfire, and a small amount of damage gained through higher time spent casting Starfire or Wrath. We gain more DOT ticks sooner, but it doesn't really impact Single-Target DPS too much. This causes us to benefit from our 2pc and 4pc more as well, which is never a bad thing.

2.) This serves as a fairly important way to open up this talent to PVP. I don't know anyone who actually uses Stellar Flare. Applying Moonfire or Sunfire allows for more spread pressure in significantly less time. You're able to use Stellar Flare as a way to counteract dispels, or "needs to die" adds. This change is meant to bridge the gap between Balance of Power's increased AOE output against the burst of Euphoria. Stellar Flare does not fill a niche role, but it will be able to provide a reward for clever/proper usage (it currently does not provide any gain over other talents in any situation).

3.) Stellar Flare is simple to use. Just keep it rolling. You simply want to keep all your DOTs rolling. The only change is that you will prefer to refresh Moonfire or Sunfire while Stellar Flare's duration is low on the target. The idea is to get more hardcasting after all!


Collision had taken the time to implement this suggestion. You may download this tool below.
Direct Link to file from SimulationCraft.org. I know it's an *.exe, but I promise it's not laced with malware. I won't DDOS you.
http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...3-27-win32.exe (>>View Source Page<<)


In order to set the simulation to recognize this alternate version of Stellar Flare, use the following line:

alternate_stellar_flare=1

Example:

talents=0101002
spec=balance
alternate_stellar_flare=1

.
.

By the numbers:
Give it a test. It's fairly simple to imagine how you might play with this new Stellar Flare. Action list really won't need much change, if any. The goal is not to increase Single-target damage by more than 4% over the current Stellar Flare. The goal is meant to make Stellar Flare better than Euphoria and BOP on encounters with 2, 3, or 4 sustained targets. Be sure to play with "Fight Style" in the Options tab.

actions.aoe=celestial_alignment,if=lunar_max<8|target.time_to_die<20
actions.aoe+=/incarnation,if=buff.celestial_alignment.up
actions.aoe+=/sunfire,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<8
actions.aoe+=/starfall,if=!buff.starfall.up&active_enemies>2
actions.aoe+=/starsurge,if=(charges=2&recharge_time<6)|charges=3
actions.aoe+=/moonfire,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<12
actions.aoe+=/stellar_flare,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<7
actions.aoe+=/starsurge,if=buff.lunar_empowerment.down&eclipse_energy>20&active_enemies=2
actions.aoe+=/starsurge,if=buff.solar_empowerment.down&eclipse_energy<-40&active_enemies=2
actions.aoe+=/wrath,if=(eclipse_energy<=0&eclipse_change>cast_time)|(eclipse_energy>0&cast_time>eclipse_change)
actions.aoe+=/starfire,if=(eclipse_energy>=0&eclipse_change>cast_time)|(eclipse_energy<0&cast_time>eclipse_change)

.

Using the T17M profile: Patchwerk. Set Bonuses enabled. 600sec test (10min)

Number of targets : Raw DPS gain over 'current' iteration of Stellar Flare (value of new Stellar Flare) (% gained)
1 : 870 (41880) (2.01%)
2 : 1150 (51150) (2.25%)
3 : 1425 (69900) (2.03%)
4 : 2300 (84070) (2.74%)
5 : 3050 (98300) (3.10%)
7 : 3820 (126953) (3.00%)
10 : 5550 (165837) (3.35%)

Fun fact, it keeps up pretty well with BOP at 5 targets.

HecticAddCleave this time:

Raid Event List
0 adds,count=5,first=30,cooldown=45,duration=30,last=450
1 movement,first=30,cooldown=45,distance=25,last=450
2 movement,players_only=1,first=18,cooldown=24,distance=8

.
4 targets: 2700 (105519) (2.56%)
(only did this one so far)

I don't know how to export multiple results, so I'm just copy/pasting results.

Thank you for your time.

[xtramuscle]

You've obviously put alot of thought and time into this. I'm not sure I agree with it though. As a DOT class by design, should we really have (another) DOT that means less DOT casting? I don't get the idea behind it myself.

I personally would like to see one of either three ideas happen instead: Stellar flare damage buffed, but has a fluctuating cast time, depending on position in the eclipse cycle, ranging from 2 seconds (at eclipse peak) to instant (at balanced eclipse, center). This would indirectly reward you for casting it at the right time; more so than now.

Or remove the initial damage component, and just make it a really hard hitting dot, either regular sized ticks, or ticks that tick harder towards the end of its duration.

Or just make it snapshot like the good ol' dots, with a BIG emphasis on the scaling depending on eclipse position.

[Slippykins]

I dunno about you Cyous, but I'd like to see Stellar Flare be an AoE nuke similar to Cataclysm (doesn't have to apply dots), so we can scumbag the clumped AoE as well as the spread AoE.

[COFFEEMAN69]

Well SF is already getting a buff for 6.1. boomkins dont need more cleave or aoe they are already the top spec for brf. u have euphoria for single target so honestly I dont see the need to change this spell at all. i mean they can try to bring it on line for single target if someone would prefer to have to keep up 3 dots or try to bring it up to par with BOP for cleave type fights like iron maidens but the question is why? u would just be making your life harder as both other talents are ones that u dont have to track. why would u wanna have a tougher rotation for a minimal amount of extra damage? unless you're suggesting that balance needs some sort of buff to stay on par with other classes which is clearly not necessary.

[xtramuscle]

Because right now the hardest part of maidens is staying awake.. (HC ofc and inb4 ...blah blah try mythic) but you get my point.

[Deleted]

Applies Moonfire or Sunfire to the target.

So in practice you just want Stellar Flare to replace Moon Fire and Sun Fire when picked?

[Borawa]

Oh god maidens. 10 minutes of reapplying dots and starfalling followed by 1 minute and a half of shitting pants.

[COFFEEMAN69]

Because right now the hardest part of maidens is staying awake.. (HC ofc and inb4 ...blah blah try mythic) but you get my point.

I honestly dont get this. i find maintaining dots on multiple targets like this fight very fun. I main feral but i find balance is a very fun spec. maybe its just cause balance is new to me and i haven't gotten bored of it yet.

[Cyous]

You've obviously put alot of thought and time into this. I'm not sure I agree with it though. As a DOT class by design, should we really have (another) DOT that means less DOT casting? I don't get the idea behind it myself.

I personally would like to see one of either three ideas happen instead: Stellar flare damage buffed, but has a fluctuating cast time, depending on position in the eclipse cycle, ranging from 2 seconds (at eclipse peak) to instant (at balanced eclipse, center). This would indirectly reward you for casting it at the right time; more so than now.

Or remove the initial damage component, and just make it a really hard hitting dot, either regular sized ticks, or ticks that tick harder towards the end of its duration.

Or just make it snapshot like the good ol' dots, with a BIG emphasis on the scaling depending on eclipse position.

It's actually not "less" DOT casting. It's the same amount as BOP, in practice. The only difference is the cast time. It's less DOT-casting than the current Stellar Flare. Another way to make Eclipse positioning more important to to shove much higher initial damage and less DOT damage. The result of this is a minor DPS gain. The only issue with this is getting to the point where spamming Stellar Flare in CA becomes a thing again (which is bad design.)

I dunno about you Cyous, but I'd like to see Stellar Flare be an AoE nuke similar to Cataclysm (doesn't have to apply dots), so we can scumbag the clumped AoE as well as the spread AoE.

I think our AOE output is overpowered at this point. (I'm still calling for Starfall nerfs.) I really don't think we need more AOE. This design wouldn't increase AOE output, but rather increases Cleave-type output beyond our other talents.

Well SF is already getting a buff for 6.1. boomkins dont need more cleave or aoe they are already the top spec for brf. u have euphoria for single target so honestly I dont see the need to change this spell at all. i mean they can try to bring it on line for single target if someone would prefer to have to keep up 3 dots or try to bring it up to par with BOP for cleave type fights like iron maidens but the question is why? u would just be making your life harder as both other talents are ones that u dont have to track. why would u wanna have a tougher rotation for a minimal amount of extra damage? unless you're suggesting that balance needs some sort of buff to stay on par with other classes which is clearly not necessary.

Even with the buff to duration -- which does nothing, and the 16% damage increase -- which puts Stellar Flare on par when played by a robot, it barely breaks even. Since Stellar Flare is more difficult to use optimally it won't provide you with any reward for your efforts. If you can spec BOP and get better results with easier gameplay, BOP becomes the default choice over Stellar Flare. The goal is to give Stellar Flare just a little bit of a boost to reward players who talent into it, and perform well. In single-target, Euphoria will be better than this iteration of Stellar Flare, and that was a design goal. Euphoria, in my opinion, should not be contending with Stellar Flare on 2-4 target fights (it currently does). Currently, Stellar Flare does not reward the player for their effort. It's not to the same degree as Bloodtalons for Feral, but an extra 2-3% damage done for using a more difficult talent (and not 'that' much more difficult with this change) is enough to provide an incentive to play with the talent. Stellar Flare is "obsolete" at this point, and that's the issue I'm trying to fix.

So in practice you just want Stellar Flare to replace Moon Fire and Sun Fire when picked?

Not quite, but yes to an extent. You're not going to be refreshing Moonfire AND Sunfire with Stellar Flare. Back to multi-target, you'll ideally replace Moonfire with Stellar Flare and cast Sunfire on its own. With CA, sure it's just Stellar Flare 3 times and go-go-go. Considering movement, short-lived adds, and "non-priority" targets, like Spears of Darmac, you can have a talent that excels when 2-4 targets are in play, rather than "Euphoria for single-target and burst :: BOP is there's a lot of AOE." Stellar Flare fills that void in the 2-4 target range without being a mandatory talent. The playstyle is similar to Peak-Eclipse refreshing and will reward you to a far higher degree.

[habitat]

In this hypothetical Cyous, would Stellar Flare be an additional button like it is now, or would it replace Moonfire/Sunfire altogether?

[Cyous]

In this hypothetical Cyous, would Stellar Flare be an additional button like it is now, or would it replace Moonfire/Sunfire altogether?

Replace isn't the right word to describe it, but yes to a certain point. You would have Stellar Flare and Moonfire/Sunfire (as we currently do). We'll be pressing Stellar Flare in place of Moonfire for Multi-Target. This way we can hardcast a little more and get some benefit out of our set bonus. Stellar Flare reduces the GCDs/time spent casting DOTs specifically to increase hardcasting damage. The result is an increase in hardcasting damage (very substantial with 3+ targets) and just a tid-bit more DOT damage. You get DOT ticks more faster, but the total ticks is almost unchanged (you gain like... 6 more ticks of Moonfire and Stellar Flare in the same 7sec window ~ approximation).

[Slippykins]

I think our AOE output is overpowered at this point. (I'm still calling for Starfall nerfs.) I really don't think we need more AOE. This design wouldn't increase AOE output, but rather increases Cleave-type output beyond our other talents.

Careful, there's different forms of AoE we're talking about here though. For when targets are clumped I would say we're middle of the pack, if that. There's no way we can compete with Windwalker Monks and Combat Rogues at any point for clumped AoE, ever. When targets are spread out like in Kromog, I would say we're absolutely the top DPS hands down. Therefore, a compromise could be to increase our clumped AoE and decrease our spread AoE. This could be achieved by the Stellar Flare change I suggested, as well as toning down Starfall damage like you did.

Then again, I don't like homogeneity, so I say let's keep our Starfall damage high and excel/be bad at certain things.

Edit: could you clarify on what you think is "cleave-type"? When I think of cleave I think of dot cleave and melee cleave. How many targets are you thinking of and how are they positioned?

[Cyous]

Careful, there's different forms of AoE we're talking about here though. For when targets are clumped I would say we're middle of the pack, if that. There's no way we can compete with Windwalker Monks and Combat Rogues at any point for clumped AoE, ever. When targets are spread out like in Kromog, I would say we're absolutely the top DPS hands down. Therefore, a compromise could be to increase our clumped AoE and decrease our spread AoE. This could be achieved by the Stellar Flare change I suggested, as well as toning down Starfall damage like you did.

Then again, I don't like homogeneity, so I say let's keep our Starfall damage high and excel/be bad at certain things.

Edit: could you clarify on what you think is "cleave-type"? When I think of cleave I think of dot cleave and melee cleave. How many targets are you thinking of and how are they positioned?

Council is my target. Positioning ranges from 2-4 clumped. Another form, for adds that spawn away from boss (Ra-den orbs), would be 1-2 targets + adds (any number). The idea is not to fill a weakness in a particular type of throughput, but rather bring Stellar Flare to the levels of Euphoria or BOP in a real scenario. Being top dps on nearly every fight is nice, but I don't want MOP-Warlock status.

[mythiix]

Being top dps on nearly every fight is nice, but I don't want MOP-Warlock status.

I know exactly how you feel. I actually wish they would nerf starfall as well. It really sucks when people dismiss a player's high dps due to the class being really good. If I wanted to play an overpowered class, I would've mained warlock in SoO but i'd rather be middle to upper middle of the pack rather than on top.

[Deleted]

So, in Highmaul Mythic balance druids were top on one fight, Brackenspore, and kargath was shared with other classes, so 1.5 fights out of 7, that isnt overpowered like warlock SoO level.

No one cares about heroic so no real point looking at that for BrF. Most AoE instances are clumped up, where Demo Locks with cataclysm or warriors with Bladestorm excel and do more aoe damage than us, i really do not get all this hate for starfall.

I agree with slippy though, i would rather see us have better burst aoe, with a nerfed starfall. We are in a good spot right now as it is for most fights, but there are fights where if you want actual aoe damage yourself, you have to tell your warriors and locks to not aoe XD

[Deleted]

I dunno about you Cyous, but I'd like to see Stellar Flare be an AoE nuke similar to Cataclysm (doesn't have to apply dots), so we can scumbag the clumped AoE as well as the spread AoE.

I like this idea more ... since we don't have an instant nuke starfall is great until adds so fast you can't get use of it typically once the other big AOE'ers get geared up, like warlocks. Hurricane is just .... why is it there?

[Cyous]

I like this idea more ... since we don't have an instant nuke starfall is great until adds so fast you can't get use of it typically once the other big AOE'ers get geared up, like warlocks. Hurricane is just .... why is it there?

I disagree because we already have Sunfire spreading in a similar fashion. And we 'really' do not need any help in AOE. if burst+clump AOE is our weakness, then so be it. Be glad we're not Feral.

[Deleted]

Because right now the hardest part of maidens is staying awake.. (HC ofc and inb4 ...blah blah try mythic) but you get my point.

but iron maidens is fking easy.

i was in a trash guild who wiped 6 hours on it before it died on heroic. i can tell you once you did it few times you actually dont even look for bombs anylonger lol.

so dont worry you can sleep again in few weeks unless you also wipe like me for 6 hours..

so the mighty owl will sleep again!

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree because we already have Sunfire spreading in a similar fashion. And we 'really' do not need any help in AOE. if burst+clump AOE is our weakness, then so be it. Be glad we're not Feral.

well i hate being in lunar on beastlord when trash pack is about to come. do you use astral communication on fights like beastlord? since we talk about aoe and sunfire.

[Cyous]

well i hate being in lunar on beastlord when trash pack is about to come. do you use astral communication on fights like beastlord? since we talk about aoe and sunfire.

if you need to. you can spam Moonfire (Stellar Flare!) then you'll hit Solar eventually, and you may Sunfire. If you time it properly with AC beforehand, you can Sunfire at 2sec til 0, then start spamming MF/STFL. (The proper way to AOE for any talent)

[Deleted]

but iron maidens is fking easy.

i was in a trash guild who wiped 6 hours on it before it died on heroic. i can tell you once you did it few times you actually dont even look for bombs anylonger lol.

so dont worry you can sleep again in few weeks unless you also wipe like me for 6 hours..

so the mighty owl will sleep again!

- - - Updated - - -




well i hate being in lunar on beastlord when trash pack is about to come. do you use astral communication on fights like beastlord? since we talk about aoe and sunfire.

Use it, usually only 1 second required, top 2? Sunfire, be done with it.

Dont be afraid to use your tools.