Explanation on why Vers > crit for survival?

[waat]

what krayzee is describing is the actual DR that there was for tank stats back in the day. it took less rating to go from 0% dodge to 1% dodge than it did to go from 10% to 11% dodge so it was said that dodge had a DR. in actuality though, the more dodge you had the more 1% dodge reduced your damage (easily understandable if you go from 98%-99% dodge where you cut your damage taken in half, where as 0-1% dodge you literally take 1% less damage). that's the only reason dodge rating was given a true DR that caused the rating to give less % at higher levels.

OTOH critical strike/multistrike/mastery/versatility DR is just basically the inverse of dodge%'s DR. 98% crit to 99% crit is an almost unnoticable difference while 1% crit to 2% crit is doubling your chance to crit.

It would be like saying that a $1000/day deposit into your checking account has diminishing returns because as you accumulate cash that $1000 becomes a smaller portion of your net worth. Nobody in their right mind would call that diminishing returns, but here we are.

[Invrlose]

what krayzee is describing is the actual DR that there was for tank stats back in the day. it took less rating to go from 0% dodge to 1% dodge than it did to go from 10% to 11% dodge so it was said that dodge had a DR. in actuality though, the more dodge you had the more 1% dodge reduced your damage (easily understandable if you go from 98%-99% dodge where you cut your damage taken in half, where as 0-1% dodge you literally take 1% less damage). that's the only reason dodge rating was given a true DR that caused the rating to give less % at higher levels.

OTOH critical strike/multistrike/mastery/versatility DR is just basically the inverse of dodge%'s DR. 98% crit to 99% crit is an almost unnoticable difference while 1% crit to 2% crit is doubling your chance to crit.

It would be like saying that a $1000/day deposit into your checking account has diminishing returns because as you accumulate cash that $1000 becomes a smaller portion of your net worth. Nobody in their right mind would call that diminishing returns, but here we are.

Basically. As an overall percentage, going from 1000 to 2000 dollars is a 100% increase. Going from 1,000,000 dollars to 1,001,000 dollars is a 0.1% increase.

[SidFwuff]

So I play my hunter as my alt and I can't wrap my head around Vers simming higher than crit.

Every time I ask this question to guildies they just use "it sims higher" as the reason but how can a mathematically worse stat sim higher? I just can't wrap my head around it.

I haven't crunched math in a while, and college was a while back. This might be right, this might be wrong... I'll let others correct me.

First, you critical % and versatility % should be as close to eachother as possible:
(Second, I will be referring to crit and versatility 'effectively' increasing each other. To be clear, I don't mean the stat itself will increase, but rather the damage output, assuming 1% crit is an extra 1% damage)

If you're looking at things in a bubble- either critical damage or versatility, they work out to be the same. They do, however, multiply each other. In other words:
If you do 100dps, and you have 10% crit, you'll do 110dps. Adding another 10% crit will bring you up to 120dps because 100dps * 1.2 (20% crit) * 1.0 (0% versatility) yields 120dps. This makes sense, because 120dps is 20% more than 100dps.

However, if you're at 10% crit and add 10% versatility instead of 10% crit, you'll boost your critical damage too. You're effectively boosting that 10% crit to 11% crit which is a bigger boost. This makes sense once we write it out: 100dps * 1.1 (10% crit) * 1.1 (10% versatility) = 121dps.

121 is 1% (1% of your base 100dps that is) more than the 120 we got with 20% crit, because that 10% crit effectively gained an extra 10% itself (Becoming 11% crit). That might look weird so here's the breakdowns:

100dps over 10 seconds with 20% crit (assuming 1.0 attack speed)
200 (crit)
200 (crit)
100
100
100
100
100
100
100
100
------
1200 damage / 10 seconds = 120dps (20% increase)

100dps over 10 seconds with 20% versatility (assuming 1.0 attack speed)
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
------
1200 damage / 10 seconds = 120dps (20% increase)


100dps over 10 seconds with 10% crit and 10% versatility (assuming 1.0 attack speed)
220 (crit)
110
110
110
110
110
110
110
110
110
--------
1210 damage / 10 seconds = 121dps (21% increase)

We can see that going from 20% versatility and 0% crit to 10% versatility and 10% crit is also a boost- the crit effectively boosted that versatility to 11%, yielding a 21% increase total.

This continues to scale upwards:
30% versatility and 10% crit versus 20% versatility and 20% crit

100dps * 1.1 (10% crit) * 1.3 (30% versatility) = 143dps (43% increase)
100dps * 1.2 (20% crit) * 1.2 (20% versatility) = 144dps (44% increase)

And if we scale things up higher, and make it more lopsided, we'll see that the more crit we trade to versatility, the more dps we gain until we break even between the two:

100dps * 2.0 (100% crit) * 1.0 (0% versatility) = 200dps (100% increase)
100dps * 1.9 (90% crit) * 1.1 (10% versatility) = 209dps (109% increase)
100dps * 1.65 (65% crit) * 1.35 (35% versatility) = 222.75dps (122.75% increase)
100dps * 1.5 (50% crit) * 1.5 (50% versatility) = 225dps (125% increase)

Now for why versatility sims higher

First of all, clearly we want versatility and critical strike to be equal right?

Well, unfortunately, they don't scale the same. From what I've read on the WoW forums, the crit rating and versatility rating are:

110 crit = 1% crit
130 versatility = 1% versatility

That means, assuming you have equal stats between the two, you will have a higher crit % than versatility.

Which increases versatility's value

In addition, the raid buffs give more crit (5%) than versatility (3%), which means you'll actually want more versatility than crit before you're buffed (to bring them closer together).

Finally, if you have to must pick between the two, keep in mind:

1) 1% versatility also grants 0.5% damage reduction
2) In PvP, crit damage is only boosted by 50% instead of 100%, meaning that 110 crit = 0.5% (essentially)

Making versatility hands down better in PvP- 20% versatility is better than 10% versatility and 5% crit (100dps * 1.0 * 1.2 = 120dps vs 100dps * 1.05 * 1.1 = 115.5dps) which means even without the extra damage reduction... when it comes to PvP... stack the hell out of versatility

As for PvE, the values of crit and versatility are pretty close together. As you gain new gear, your crit and versatility levels will fluctuate, and whichever one is lower than the other will gain weight- this is why people constantly sim their characters. The more crit you have, the more you'll want versatility and vice versa.

If you must choose between crit and versatility though, you'll want versatility for the damage reduction. E.g, 20% versatility and 10% crit will yield the same damage as 10% versatility and 20% crit, but the former will give you a 10% damage reduction instead of 5%.

[Invrlose]

But if you have 5 apples and you go to 6 apples then youre saying that 1 apple is now worth 0.5 apples?!

[SidFwuff]

But if you have 5 apples and you go to 6 apples then youre saying that 1 apple is now worth 0.5 apples?!

What?

EDIT: Looking over your posts, you seem to be talking about the 'DR' and confused on percentages.

To use your analogy, increasing 5 apples by 20%, giving you 6 apples.

If you then get new equipment that increases your 5 apples by 40%, you get 7 apples. You don't multiple 6 apples by 40% and assume you'll be getting 8.4 apples.

Some people don't seem to understand how crit works.

They deal 24k dps with 20% crit. That's 20k dps plus an extra 4k dps from the crit, giving 24k.

When they're at 30% crit, they see they're 'only' doing 26k dps and say "That extra 10% crit is only giving me 2k dps when I'm doing 24k. 10% of 24k is 2.4k, where's my extra 400dps?"

10% of 20k is 2k whether you have 0% crit, 10% crit, or 50%.

[Perrito]

you need a way better reason to disagree with sims than that. the sims don't even put versa above crit by any significant amount

im not trying to argue with no one here, im just asking question, why it would be more valuable vs crit if you can get more % for less crit and they both increase damage equally by each % gained until 45-50% crit DR kick in.

but would you rather go with no-DR guaranteed damage or RNG?

that is enough of a reason if both values are almost on par, same like saying, going multi-crit because of MM. the OP wants to know why versa is better than crit for SV, i dont see how it can be better if crit even sims higher than crit, unless we are talking about AOE.

fair enough on the MM excuse but to me that just looks like you're grasping for straws.

not grasping for anything in here dude. im asking, since i quit long time ago im not in line with current changes, heck i even ask for your guide couple of time to catch up for the same reason, i leave theoricrafting to the theoricrafters, im just asking why OP thinks versa>crit for SV wich is 100% false, acording to effin
ST: multistrike > crit >= versatility > mastery > haste

this come from: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...d-survival-60/

[Invrlose]

What?

EDIT: Looking over your posts, you seem to be talking about the 'DR' and confused on percentages.

To use your analogy, increasing 5 apples by 20%, giving you 6 apples.

If you then get new equipment that increases your 5 apples by 40%, you get 7 apples. You don't multiple 6 apples by 40% and assume you'll be getting 8.4 apples.

Some people don't seem to understand how crit works.

They deal 24k dps with 20% crit. That's 20k dps plus an extra 4k dps from the crit, giving 24k.

When they're at 30% crit, they see they're 'only' doing 26k dps and say "That extra 10% crit is only giving me 2k dps when I'm doing 24k. 10% of 24k is 2.4k, where's my extra 400dps?"

10% of 20k is 2k whether you have 0% crit, 10% crit, or 50%.

Dude, I was just making fun of the other guy who was talking about apples and fertilizer and square footage of a room. Lol. I'm making the same argument you are.

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im not trying to argue with no one here, im just asking question, why it would be more valuable vs crit if you can get more % for less crit and they both increase damage equally by each % gained until 45-50% crit DR kick in.


that is enough of a reason if both values are almost on par, same like saying, going multi-crit because of MM. the OP wants to know why versa is better than crit for SV, i dont see how it can be better if crit even sims higher than crit, unless we are talking about AOE.


not grasping for anything in here dude. im asking, since i quit long time ago im not in line with current changes, heck i even ask for your guide couple of time to catch up for the same reason, i leave theoricrafting to the theoricrafters, im just asking why OP thinks versa>crit for SV wich is 100% false, acording to effin
ST: multistrike > crit >= versatility > mastery > haste

this come from: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...d-survival-60/

Where are you getting this 45-50% DR number from? Any time crit% is ahead of vers%, it makes vers more powerful and vice versa. But you're almost always going to have more crit than vers.

45% crit to 50% crit is only a 3.4% DPS increase. 5% crit requires 550 rating. 3.4% versatility only requires 442 rating. 95% crit to 100% crit is only 2.5% DPS increase. To get 2.5% damage increase from versatility 325 rating, vs the 550 required crit rating. As crit goes higher, crit's overall contribution to the total percentage of your damage becomes less. I don't know how many more times this has to be said.

Azortharion disagrees with Effin, and has vers slightly ahead of crit, with math & sims to back it up. So what do you have to say about that?

[Azortharion]

1) itll never matter to the point where you can sim the difference
2) damage reduction mnhrh
3) theres still crit on like everything in BRF just as it was in highmaul so go figure

[dean771]

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Where are you getting this 45-50% DR number from? Any time crit% is ahead of vers%, it makes vers more powerful and vice versa. But you're almost always going to have more crit than vers.

45% crit to 50% crit is only a 3.4% DPS increase. 5% crit requires 550 rating. 3.4% versatility only requires 442 rating. 95% crit to 100% crit is only 2.5% DPS increase. To get 2.5% damage increase from versatility 325 rating, vs the 550 required crit rating. As crit goes higher, crit's overall contribution to the total percentage of your damage becomes less. I don't know how many more times this has to be said.

Azortharion disagrees with Effin, and has vers slightly ahead of crit, with math & sims to back it up. So what do you have to say about that?

Worth noting the above only applies if you have 0 vers

[Invrlose]

Worth noting the above only applies if you have 0 vers

No, not true

[dean771]

No, not true

I must be missing something, if a 5% crit increase (from 45 to 50) is 3.4% total dps increase(I agree it is) why is a 3.4% vers increase not less then 3.4% total dps increase at anything other then base vers

ie: 145% crit 140% vers, base dps of 100, gives 203dps
ie: 145% crit 143.4% vers base dps of 100, gives 207.93
thats a 2.4% increase

where i think you are going wrong is comparing the total dps increase from crit to the % change in vers not the total dps increase from vers

Or im wrong, I'm not 100% sure about any of this, regardless we are talking about small differences

[Invrlose]

I must be missing something, if a 5% crit increase (from 45 to 50) is 3.4% total dps increase(I agree it is) why is a 3.4% vers increase not less then 3.4% total dps increase at anything other then base vers

ie: 145% crit 140% vers, base dps of 100, gives 203dps
ie: 145% crit 143.4% vers base dps of 100, gives 207.93
thats a 2.4% increase

where i think you are going wrong is comparing the total dps increase from crit to the % change in vers not the total dps increase from vers

Or im wrong, I'm not 100% sure about any of this, regardless we are talking about small differences

(100)(1.45)(1.033333333)= 150

[dean771]

(100)(1.45)(1.033333333)= 150

I agree, not sure how thats relevent though

[Dazu]

I is stupid and misread**

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im not trying to argue with no one here, im just asking question, why it would be more valuable vs crit if you can get more % for less crit and they both increase damage equally by each % gained until 45-50% crit DR kick in.


that is enough of a reason if both values are almost on par, same like saying, going multi-crit because of MM. the OP wants to know why versa is better than crit for SV, i dont see how it can be better if crit even sims higher than crit, unless we are talking about AOE.


not grasping for anything in here dude. im asking, since i quit long time ago im not in line with current changes, heck i even ask for your guide couple of time to catch up for the same reason, i leave theoricrafting to the theoricrafters, im just asking why OP thinks versa>crit for SV wich is 100% false, acording to effin
ST: multistrike > crit >= versatility > mastery > haste

this come from: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...d-survival-60/

Actually Effin also has Versa over Crit if you read through the thread. Page 7 or 8 someone asks exactly what you did and it was answered. Because it changes constantly on numbers of targets and spell priority in those situations.

""
Effinhunter

Posted 12 February 2015 - 03:32 PM
Because AoE is such a big part of BRF, versatility is a bit better than crit. This is due to versatility affecting Barrage, while mastery only affects SrS. Crit does affect Barrage and MS, but it just doesn't scale quite as well with the amounts of crit you already have on gear at the BRF level.

""

[waat]

Also the people talking about tank stat DR, what the hell are you on about? Those stats had DR in the % per stat point which is completely different to what is being discussed here. Dodge for example would take 100 rating for 1% at 0, and then 500 for 1% at 50% etc because the stat gained in strength the higher it got and 1% at 50% (2% reduction) was more benefit than 1% at 0% (1% reduction) . Versa is always 1% damage from 130 rating, Crit is always 1% from 110 rating etc. The benefit per % will reduce as it goes higher, as with all stats. But that is not the same as the DR we had for tanks because in their stats (which meant without the stat DR which was a real DR, the rating actually got better and better the higher it got).

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Actually Effin also has Versa over Crit if you read through the thread. Page 7 or 8 someone asks exactly what you did and it was answered. Because it changes constantly on numbers of targets and spell priority in those situations.

that's...exactly what i said...

[Dazu]

that's...exactly what i said...

I misread your comment my bad. I got yours and the armor one earlier mixed up and combined together. Thought for some reason yours was going along side of the armor comment earlier.

Edited <.<

[jpthepope]

I haven't crunched math in a while, and college was a while back. This might be right, this might be wrong... I'll let others correct me.

First, you critical % and versatility % should be as close to eachother as possible:
(Second, I will be referring to crit and versatility 'effectively' increasing each other. To be clear, I don't mean the stat itself will increase, but rather the damage output, assuming 1% crit is an extra 1% damage)

If you're looking at things in a bubble- either critical damage or versatility, they work out to be the same. They do, however, multiply each other. In other words:
If you do 100dps, and you have 10% crit, you'll do 110dps. Adding another 10% crit will bring you up to 120dps because 100dps * 1.2 (20% crit) * 1.0 (0% versatility) yields 120dps. This makes sense, because 120dps is 20% more than 100dps.

However, if you're at 10% crit and add 10% versatility instead of 10% crit, you'll boost your critical damage too. You're effectively boosting that 10% crit to 11% crit which is a bigger boost. This makes sense once we write it out: 100dps * 1.1 (10% crit) * 1.1 (10% versatility) = 121dps.

121 is 1% (1% of your base 100dps that is) more than the 120 we got with 20% crit, because that 10% crit effectively gained an extra 10% itself (Becoming 11% crit). That might look weird so here's the breakdowns:

100dps over 10 seconds with 20% crit (assuming 1.0 attack speed)
200 (crit)
200 (crit)
100
100
100
100
100
100
100
100
------
1200 damage / 10 seconds = 120dps (20% increase)

100dps over 10 seconds with 20% versatility (assuming 1.0 attack speed)
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
120
------
1200 damage / 10 seconds = 120dps (20% increase)


100dps over 10 seconds with 10% crit and 10% versatility (assuming 1.0 attack speed)
220 (crit)
110
110
110
110
110
110
110
110
110
--------
1210 damage / 10 seconds = 121dps (21% increase)

We can see that going from 20% versatility and 0% crit to 10% versatility and 10% crit is also a boost- the crit effectively boosted that versatility to 11%, yielding a 21% increase total.

This continues to scale upwards:
30% versatility and 10% crit versus 20% versatility and 20% crit

100dps * 1.1 (10% crit) * 1.3 (30% versatility) = 143dps (43% increase)
100dps * 1.2 (20% crit) * 1.2 (20% versatility) = 144dps (44% increase)

And if we scale things up higher, and make it more lopsided, we'll see that the more crit we trade to versatility, the more dps we gain until we break even between the two:

100dps * 2.0 (100% crit) * 1.0 (0% versatility) = 200dps (100% increase)
100dps * 1.9 (90% crit) * 1.1 (10% versatility) = 209dps (109% increase)
100dps * 1.65 (65% crit) * 1.35 (35% versatility) = 222.75dps (122.75% increase)
100dps * 1.5 (50% crit) * 1.5 (50% versatility) = 225dps (125% increase)

Now for why versatility sims higher

First of all, clearly we want versatility and critical strike to be equal right?

Well, unfortunately, they don't scale the same. From what I've read on the WoW forums, the crit rating and versatility rating are:

110 crit = 1% crit
130 versatility = 1% versatility

That means, assuming you have equal stats between the two, you will have a higher crit % than versatility.

Which increases versatility's value

In addition, the raid buffs give more crit (5%) than versatility (3%), which means you'll actually want more versatility than crit before you're buffed (to bring them closer together).

Finally, if you have to must pick between the two, keep in mind:

1) 1% versatility also grants 0.5% damage reduction
2) In PvP, crit damage is only boosted by 50% instead of 100%, meaning that 110 crit = 0.5% (essentially)

Making versatility hands down better in PvP- 20% versatility is better than 10% versatility and 5% crit (100dps * 1.0 * 1.2 = 120dps vs 100dps * 1.05 * 1.1 = 115.5dps) which means even without the extra damage reduction... when it comes to PvP... stack the hell out of versatility

As for PvE, the values of crit and versatility are pretty close together. As you gain new gear, your crit and versatility levels will fluctuate, and whichever one is lower than the other will gain weight- this is why people constantly sim their characters. The more crit you have, the more you'll want versatility and vice versa.

If you must choose between crit and versatility though, you'll want versatility for the damage reduction. E.g, 20% versatility and 10% crit will yield the same damage as 10% versatility and 20% crit, but the former will give you a 10% damage reduction instead of 5%.

this is how i understand it also. And why stat plot points work with simc.

[Azortharion]

3) theres still crit on like everything in BRF just as it was in highmaul so go figure

effin: but it just doesn't scale quite as well with the amounts of crit you already have on gear at the BRF level.

/thread 10chars

[Deleted]

TL;DR:
-There is no DR for either stat, the DR only applies to comparative values, not to the actual flat damage increase.
-The super slight advantage for versatility (0.01 in the stat weights mind you), despite it's slightly lower stat% per stat point comes from 15% baseline critchance we have and how the stats scale with each other.

Exactly... and that's is the only thing I tried (and in my opinion I did it in a way that could've been easily understood) to explain and point out.
It's as simple as that.
It's easy to prove, draw a graph with dps numbers on X and crit on Y - and done, it'll be a straight line - no "DR"