Steady Focus and Thrill of the Hunt

[Azortharion]

No, it's not.

The limiting factor in usage of ANY non-generator ability is PREPARING to use it, which is a -simple- thing to do regardless of what talent you are using. You personally finding it easier does not make it a better talent.

[rickhunterr]

No, it's not.

The limiting factor in usage of ANY non-generator ability is PREPARING to use it, which is a -simple- thing to do regardless of what talent you are using. You personally finding it easier does not make it a better talent.

Just like you finding it difficult to use SF instead of the brain dead and simple TOTH to do less dps than SF. I Just find it hilarious someone who says simms are the end all be all wants to refute what Simms tell us about focus regen and BA ES usage. It's like you are being contrarian because you didn't post the info.

[Azortharion]

Except I've never claimed that sims are end all be all except when they ARE end all be all.

You seem to be of the delusion that I am somehow biased towards arbitrary shit, when the only thing I am biased towards is correctness, something which you clearly missed seeing as you are implying that I prefer ToTH over SF for some reason, and that I am better at playing with ToTH than SF´when the former is actually harder in practice for obvious reasons.

[rickhunterr]

Seriously I'm done arguing with you, you're not worth my time. I suggest everyone go out there and try using SF and see for themselves the flow and synergies of it with our 4pc. Then test it against ToTH. Simms say you'll get on avg through 10,000 iterations, one more BA and as a result you gain 4 ES which in turn increases your multistrike damage. With our 4pc arcane is no longer better than BA or ES and this is doubly true if you have procced a high amount of Multistrike so that every tick of multistrike damage does increased damage.

[Azortharion]

I'll let someone else point out where what you just said falls apart.

[Lokrick]

BA is on a non resetting, set cooldown. There are no talent choices that get you more of them, ever.

This. So if sims are getting fewer with a particular talent choice, that's a result of either a simple priority or just not pooling enough focus at the right time for BA. In general, the cobra shot action lists keep a high level of focus, where the FS actions are "burn focus and then build it up with FS". I can easily imagine that results in occasional low focus for any of BA, crows, or barrage. Looking at a current sim result in the procs section, we see that to be the case:

starved: a_murder_of_crows	1.5	77.7sec
starved: black_arrow	2.3	68.9sec
starved: explosive_shot	0.9	130.2sec

This should be taken as an opportunity to improve the APL rather than a conclusion on the talent. There are various techniques in the action lists that could ensure that focus is available for BA or crows. They may not necessarily improve DPS of course. What approach do peopel actually take to achieve that, since it's clealry possible, and likely an improvement?

[Hoofey]

The limiting factor in BA or ES usage is focus. The passive regen from SF takes the need away from casting FS to have focus to cast BA or ES. If you are delaying arcades you take away the benefit of TOTH so SF is better. If you are delaying BA to cast FS for focus. Again SF is better.

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Again this is why Simms show SF better than TOTH

This is so situational I don't understand why you even use it as an argument. SF is no guarantee that you'll get enough focus for BA right when you need it, it all depends on how much you fuck up before BA comes off CD.
There are just as many scenarios that can fuck up the gains from SF as there are for ToTH, but most people like the freedom and aoe viability ToTH gives you.

Seriously I'm done arguing with you, you're not worth my time. I suggest everyone go out there and try using SF and see for themselves the flow and synergies of it with our 4pc. Then test it against ToTH. Simms say you'll get on avg through 10,000 iterations, one more BA and as a result you gain 4 ES which in turn increases your multistrike damage. With our 4pc arcane is no longer better than BA or ES and this is doubly true if you have procced a high amount of Multistrike so that every tick of multistrike damage does increased damage.

ToTh also gives you the possibility to unleash hell with AS after stacking up the 4pt buff with less FS used during that time.

[Sharpdarts]

This is so situational I don't understand why you even use it as an argument. SF is no guarantee that you'll get enough focus for BA right when you need it, it all depends on how much you fuck up before BA comes off CD.



ToTh also gives you the possibility to unleash hell with AS after stacking up the 4pt buff with less FS used during that time.

So you are saying you want a Procc to save you when you screw up instead of not screwing up, and you are saying you "HOPE" a Procc will let you unleash hell "IF" it proccs when you have the stacked 4pc bonus.....gotcha.

[Hoofey]

So you are saying you want a Procc to save you when you screw up instead of not screwing up, and you are saying you "HOPE" a Procc will let you unleash hell "IF" it proccs when you have the stacked 4pc bonus.....gotcha.

Did you even read what i wrote? I said nothing about ToTH "saving" me when i screw up, I said that using BA properly has more to do with player skill and pretty much nothing to do with the talents you choose.

I also said ToTH gives you a possibility to utilize the 4pt in a way SF cant, has nothing to do with me "hoping" for stuff to procc.

[Zautix]

The general comparison between SF and TotH is a function of how fast you can spend ~200 Focus.

Spending 200 focus gives you an 80% or better chance to proc TotH. The maximum focus you can spend is ~20 focus/s and can only be accomplished with Black Arrow or Barrage from full focus, after which you'll only be able to spend ~8 focus/s. Each spending interval (time between FS) will give a ~35-40% chance to proc TotH, but these intervals will vary in time based on LnL procs, which cannot generate TotH procs. TotH overlapping will also create potential loss, but it's fairly minor for the purposes of comparing TotH to SF.

To further simplify, as long as you get 1 fully consumed TotH proc every 25 seconds, it is better than SF in terms of Focus returns.

The better argument for using TotH over SF is that you are less likely to focus cap in the event you get a LnL streak.

[Deleted]

In terms of raw damage, SF is ahead when using Focusing Shot. With SF you will get slightly more efficient ES/BA turnover, but the big difference is higher pet damage. The main consideration is that ToTh is easy to use, and provides significant mobility. It is also extremely good with more than one target.

[Deleted]

i like toth for anything that is not pure single target cuz i get more toth uptime on multitarget fights due to the fact that u trigger it more often (or have a better chance of doing so) with the barrage casting. on single target i mostly go with sf cuz its more stable performance for me week for week, toth is for ranks and luck, just as trinkets are =( god damn i hate my trinkets =(

[Rugtoad]

--edit-- apparently I repsonded to an old post from the fist page of this thread and forgot there was a second page, my bad

[dashmudtz]

this thread got impressively terrible impressively fast. It amazes me what can be accomplished by people that can't accomplish basic intelligence.

[Kwaai]

this thread got impressively terrible impressively fast. It amazes me what can be accomplished by people that can't accomplish basic intelligence.

People in general amaze me. Last night I was talking to a hunter in my guild (we're 9/10 H, 4/7 M, so not amazing but not garbage either), and he thought he was supposed to stagger ES during LnL (like ES>AS>ES>AS>ES rather than ES>ES>ES). Ok, whatever. Maybe he hasn't played since Wrath when ES worked differently. So after I tell him, he's incredulous. I point him to sims and various threads saying not to stagger it. I point to logs of real hunters. He's still incredulous, so I tell him to go test it on a target dummy. Rather than just cast BA>ES>ES>ES, look at the total ES damage, then cast BA>ES>AS>ES>AS>ES, look at ES damage and compare it; he hits the dummy for 2 hours testing it, and he comes to the conclusion that staggering is better because he's "constantly focus capping" during LnL if he doesn't stagger the shots.

I felt like I was arguing with a Jehovah's Witness.

[dashmudtz]

he hits the dummy for 2 hours testing it

That made my day.

[Deleted]

The limiting factor in BA or ES usage is focus. The passive regen from SF takes the need away from casting FS to have focus to cast BA or ES. If you are delaying arcades you take away the benefit of TOTH so SF is better. If you are delaying BA to cast FS for focus. Again SF is better.

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Again this is why Simms show SF better than TOTH

If you go this full heartedly with simms you aren't a good pleyer... Reason why no rankings got SF.

[Nakauri]

This. So if sims are getting fewer with a particular talent choice, that's a result of either a simple priority or just not pooling enough focus at the right time for BA. In general, the cobra shot action lists keep a high level of focus, where the FS actions are "burn focus and then build it up with FS". I can easily imagine that results in occasional low focus for any of BA, crows, or barrage. Looking at a current sim result in the procs section, we see that to be the case:

starved: a_murder_of_crows	1.5	77.7sec
starved: black_arrow	2.3	68.9sec
starved: explosive_shot	0.9	130.2sec

This should be taken as an opportunity to improve the APL rather than a conclusion on the talent. There are various techniques in the action lists that could ensure that focus is available for BA or crows. They may not necessarily improve DPS of course. What approach do peopel actually take to achieve that, since it's clealry possible, and likely an improvement?

Lokrick, I recommend trying the same APL line in marksmanship for rapid fire. Both MoC and ES are above the two APL lines for arcane right now so there's no reason not to delay using 30f in order to pool to use 35f within 2 or so seconds.