"You are bad"

[Deleted]

So I saw the preview video (like many others) for patch 6.1 on youtube the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SugtESal8W4
(If you haven't seen it yet)

I noticed a huge number of dislikes. I myself didn't care for it for obvious reasons (which I will get into) but I pressed "Dislike" myself and started to read some comments (big mistake).
Then I saw this comment, and I quote:
"So many dislikes for the first patch of the expansion. They're doing it right. They're spreading the contewnt out and giving us more/even time between ilvl jumps. You want your hard-earned gear to be topped even faster? Well sorry, but you're an idiot. They're doing this so their wont be a content drought at the end of the expansion."

I actually agree with him, but lack of content wasn't actually the reason I disliked the patch. The reason was the lack of buff to shamans. More specific the mentioned mobility buff to Elemental. So I told him so, and what did I get as a response?
A "You are just bad, look at the ladders"-comment.

So I did! I took a look at the ladder on both US and EU, and what did I find? In top 1000 in US there are only 3 Elemental Shamans, and 15 in EU. On the other hand, there are 108 Arms Warriors in US top 1000. 138 Resto Druids etc etc etc.

I can't believe people are still throwing the "you are bad" argument in 2015. It's like Rogues from Vanilla telling other people to learn to play their class. I have almost 2k experience btw and are by no definition bad. Just to prove my point, I've listed EVERY SINGLE SPEC (except tanks for obvious reasons) from the top 1000 on EU. Just to prove my point I'll make a prediction: My prediction is that Elemental Shamans will be in bottom 5 on the list (excluding tank specs for obvious reasons) together with WW Monks, Destro Locks, Fire Mages and Enhancement Shamans, and the top will be largely dominated by melees/hunters and healers. Let's have a look:

Top 1000 EU 3v3 Ladder (+2603 rating)

01. Resto Druid - 138 players (Healer)
02. Combat Rogue - 117 players (Melee)
03. Frost Mage - 107 players (Caster)
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04. Survival Hunter - 78 players (Hunter)
05. Resto Shaman - 67 players (Healer)
06. Arms Warrior - 63 players (Melee)
07. Feral Druid - 49 players (Melee)
08. Affliction Warlock - 47 players (Caster)
09. Frost Death Knight - 42 players (Melee)
10/11. Mistweaver Monk - 40 players (Healer)
10/11. Holy Paladin - 40 players (Healer)
------------------------------------------------------
12. Shadow Priest - 26 players (Caster)
13. Discipline Priest - 25 players (Healer)
14. Fury Warrior - 24 players (Melee)
15. Retribution Paladin - 22 players (Melee)
16. Subtlety Rogue - 20 players (Melee)
17. Enhancement Shaman - 19 players (Melee) <- 1.9% of the top 1k players
18. Unholy Death Knight - 16 players (Melee)
19. Elemental Shaman - 15 players (Caster) <- 1.5% of the top 1k players
20. Beastmaster Hunter - 13 players (Hunter)
21. Demonology Warlock - 11 players (Caster)
22. Balance Druid - 10 players (Caster)
23. Fire Mage - 2 players (Caster)
24/25/26/27. Assassination Rogue - 1 player (Melee)
24/25/26/27. Arcane Mage - 1 player (Caster)
24/25/26/27. Destruction Warlock - 1 player (Caster)
24/25/26/27. Windwalker Monk - 1 player (Melee)

No big surprise, but then again, it is. It's a surprise Blizzard could be THAT bad at balancing their game in terms on PvP so long time into an expansion. Now I'm all for the "You have one viable spec, so don't complain"-argument, except that that can't be used for hybrids since their playstyles are COMPLETELY different. Comparing Arms & Fury with Ele and Enh is just retarded.

So what's my point? My point is that Warlocks, Mages, Rogues, Hunters and DKs can't really complain about some of their specs not being viable. Shamans, Monks and Druids can however, and should! Balance is not Feral or Resto, and WW is not MW. Neither is Ele/Enh actually Resto.

Blizzard needs to get their sh*t together and people need to start opening their eyes for the obvious imbalances in the game.

Ladder Link:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3#page=1

TL,DR:
STOP TELLING SHAMANS THEY ARE BAD!

- - - Updated - - -

And just to babble on a little more:

Frost Mages and Affliction Warlocks are the only casters in Top 10. Hardly a change from previous expansions. I fail to see how the balancing can be this difficult. All Shamans are asking for, are simple and minor changes to make us more viable. Hell, the forums are FLOODED with ideas. Why is this so hard for them? The same specs dominate the PvP ground expansion after expansion after expansion. It's getting really tiresome, to be honest.

Which got me thinking: What is the actual class representation in the top 1000?

01. Druid - 19,7% (70% Resto / 25% Feral)
02. Rogue - 13,8% (84% Combat)
03. Mage - 11,0% (97% Frost)
04. Shaman 10,1% (66% Resto / 19% Enh / 15% Ele)
05. Hunter 9,1% (85% Survival)
06. Warrior 8,7% (72% Arms)
07. Paladin - 6,2% (64% Holy / 35% Ret)
08. Warlock 5,9% (79% Affliction)
09. Death Knight 5,8% (72% Frost)
10. Priest 5,1% (51% Shadow / 49% Disc)
11. Monk 4,9% (93% Mistweaver)

Shamans are relatively high on the list, but it's only because of Resto. If you remove Resto from the equation, then Shamans would be at the bottom, below Priests and Monks at 3,4%.

In other words: The representation of Elemental and Enhancement is 3,4%. Just to put that into perspective: There are 34 different specs, 29 if you exclude tanks. This means if there was perfect balance, each spec should have a representation of precisely 3,448%. Ele and Enh Shamans is HALF of that. Resto Druids is 4 times of that! 8 times higher representation than DPS Shamans. Let me spell that out to you: You meet 8 Resto Druids for every DPS Shaman you meet in high end 3v3. Thats 16 Resto Druids for every Elemental Shaman, people! 16!!!

I rest my case.

- - - Updated - - -

Comparing Frost Mages to Elemental Shamans in spec representation (10,7% vs 1,5%) is a clear example of a caster that works in PvP, and one that doesn't. So what's the big difference? Well, for one, Frost Mages have amazing CC, they can escape sh*t easily, have amazing defensive cds, and have great dmg as well as burst. On the other side, you have a spec that has no ways to defends itself, relies on other people to peel, have bad mobility, close to no CC and what little they have is bad, and damage that is very RNG.

Solution: Give Ele mobility, give more reliable damage, plus more and better cc. EASY!

One example could be: LB on the move, give a perk to DPS shamans that removes the cooldown from Hex and makes it affected by Ascenstral Swiftness. Also give them another perk that reduced the charge time of cap totem by 2 seconds. EASY!

And the same comparison can be made for Combat Rogues and Enhancement Shamans (11,7% vs 1,9%). Again, the strong points are cc, dmg and defensive cooldowns. I see a pattern, and apparently, Blizzard either doesn't see it, or doesn't care to fix it.

[wutpoae]

Even myself with limited experience in PvP recognize these problems. I've recently started doing some more casual arenas, mostly I play Resto and I feel that's fine. But every time I feel like doing some damage in 2s I feel fucking handicapped in Elemental spec.

[Deleted]

I agree with some points about balancing and issues regarding PvP for both enhancement and elemental.
However, if you come up with charts like above, don't mix up the facts you're trying to present.
You take resto shamans out of the equation but within 2 sentences you compare both Ele and enhance with numbers of resto druids? Make sure to compare your numbers with the same roles.
Honestly, if you would compare both shaman DPS specs and representation within the 3v3 ladder you will notice we aren't as bad in the ladder as it seems. Some classes have it way worse.
Take out pure dps classes and compare us with other hybrid specs like priests/monks and paladins, we just aren't that bad represented.

However, this does not mean we are struggling in PvP and we could use some buffs.

[Deleted]

I agree with some points about balancing and issues regarding PvP for both enhancement and elemental.
However, if you come up with charts like above, don't mix up the facts you're trying to present.
You take resto shamans out of the equation but within 2 sentences you compare both Ele and enhance with numbers of resto druids? Make sure to compare your numbers with the same roles.
Honestly, if you would compare both shaman DPS specs and representation within the 3v3 ladder you will notice we aren't as bad in the ladder as it seems. Some classes have it way worse.
Take out pure dps classes and compare us with other hybrid specs like priests/monks and paladins, we just aren't that bad represented.

However, this does not mean we are struggling in PvP and we could use some buffs.

Yeah, I know I did, and I'm sorry for that comparison. I did it to show one extreme case, just to prove a clear point: Imbalance. I should be able to compare ele to frost mages. They are both casters in every sense. Same for boomkins, locks, and priests. I don't agree with you about the whole "pure dps" point. That's an old way of thinking. That's the way Blizz tried to do their game back in vanilla, and it pretty much forced all hybrid to be healers, and all the ones that could tank, to tank. It was NOT a good system. If there has to be any kind of balance, you have to see it as groups of playstyles, as in casters, melees, healers and... well, hunters (Since they are kinda their own category).

And when you look at it that way, it looks very, very wrong, as seen in my above post (Look at the Frost Mage vs Ele Shammy example).

If you argue that hybrids shouldn't perform as well as "pure" classes at a certain aspect, I'll just ask: "Why not?". Surely you know how much these so called "pure" classes heal. That used to be the old argument, was it not? That hybrids could heal, so they shouldn't be able to do as much damage as the other classes. That's bs. I see warriors, warlocks and rogues have better healing than elemental shamans. Truth is, elemental shamans can't get a single heal off, if there's just one competent player on them. Silences, stuns, kicks, you name it. We have zero hots, and zero passive healing. We HAVE to hardcast every single bit of hp we want to get back. Oh yeah, we have they shitty healing totem that's not even worth the gcd that can be one-shotted by an autoattack. But surely you're not gonna mention that?

So I just ask: Why not?

I'll just leave this one here for the lols: https://imgflip.com/i/hwkch

[Deleted]

I do agree that hybrids shouldn't be less equal to pure dps as we are now.
However I do think you should put pure classes in a different box (If I play a mage and purely enjoy arcane but I want to PvP at a certain level im forced to play frost, equals in my opinion playing ele but forced to play resto in this way), hence pure dps =/= hybrids.
Look at how the pure dps classes are forced to play a certain spec which they might not enjoy. As said, we aren't balanced and shamans as a hybrid class can really use some buffs in PvP, but showing the percentages in classes/specs is just not the way to prove it.
Let's see it like the following scenario with mages and shamans:

I play ele but my class is underrepresented and not performing in 3v3. That's a shame, go play resto.
I play arcane but my class is underrepresented and not performing in 3v3. That's a shame, go play frost.

While, of course, not the best comparison due to the nature of the specs of both classes, they are both forced to play a spec they don't want. However, the percentage in WHICH they are represented are much worse for mages.
In this nature of comparing all specs to each other, arcane mages should by this standard deserve a buff more then elemental shamans.

While this isn't the comparison I want to make it is 1 to show that statistics in representation can be quite off and the analysis of 1 isn't easy. Thus making balancing for Blizzard not any easier either.

And again as said, we deserve buffs in PvP and we could do better, but we are not the only classes/specs.

[evertonbelmontt]

You don't even know how to present your point.
What you really want is to ele/enhance to be viable, but you don't know what it would cost you.

Take a look at your own numbers: pure classes first.
Warlocks: 1 spec at top (ranked 8), 2 at very bottom. 1 out of 3.
Mages: 1 spec at the very top (ranked 3), 2 at the very bottom. 1 out of 3.
Rogues: 1 spec at the very top (ranked 2), 2 at the very bottom. 1 out of 3.
Hunters: Ahahahah, hunters.. hahahah

Doesn't matter that they're all dps. The advantage of being a pure is that your specs feels different enough to give you another playstyle. Almost like a different role. There are many people that don't enjoy afflic at all or combat at all and don't want to play those. What's left then? Isn't the same for resto shamans?

Point number 2: they CAN'T buff affliction/frost. Every warlock that knows how to play understand that affliction is locked for PVE buffs because of PVP. The only way they can do it is by messing with tier sets. Do you want enhanc/ele suffer from the same problem as well? It's very selfish, but it's your call.

Point number 3: elemental maybe need a buff to mobility, but it has nothing to do with the other casters or how you're comparing different classes.

[Deleted]

I do agree that hybrids shouldn't be less equal to pure dps as we are now.
However I do think you should put pure classes in a different box (If I play a mage and purely enjoy arcane but I want to PvP at a certain level im forced to play frost, equals in my opinion playing ele but forced to play resto in this way), hence pure dps =/= hybrids.
Look at how the pure dps classes are forced to play a certain spec which they might not enjoy. As said, we aren't balanced and shamans as a hybrid class can really use some buffs in PvP, but showing the percentages in classes/specs is just not the way to prove it.
Let's see it like the following scenario with mages and shamans:

I play ele but my class is underrepresented and not performing in 3v3. That's a shame, go play resto.
I play arcane but my class is underrepresented and not performing in 3v3. That's a shame, go play frost.

While, of course, not the best comparison due to the nature of the specs of both classes, they are both forced to play a spec they don't want. However, the percentage in WHICH they are represented are much worse for mages.
In this nature of comparing all specs to each other, arcane mages should by this standard deserve a buff more then elemental shamans.

I would completly agree with you on this point if it wasn't for the fact that they have different roles. That's kinda my point. Healer =/= Caster. Caster IS however = caster. So yeah, Arcane might not be viable, but Frost is! He can still play the CHARACTER he loves. He's not forced to reroll if he wants to pew pew in PvP, like a shaman is. I have SHITLOAD of achievements, mounts, transmogs and title on my Shaman. If I reroll to another char, I literally lose EVERYTHING I have worked for the last many, many years. I might as well be someone who bought WoW yesterday then. I'll have just as much to show for it.

While this isn't the comparison I want to make it is 1 to show that statistics in representation can be quite off and the analysis of 1 isn't easy. Thus making balancing for Blizzard not any easier either.

It IS easy. They have SO many ways in form of perks, talents, and sets to tweek the balancing without affect the other specs OR PvE. It's not as complicated as so many people think. It's more a lack of trying to be honest. Let's be honest here: How many PTR builds have you seen lately where Blizzard was actually fiddling with the underwhelming specs for PvP balance? You don't see that, because it doesn't even reach the PTR. I don't even think they think about it.

And again as said, we deserve buffs in PvP and we could do better, but we are not the only classes/specs.

You are right, and I agree. I want to see all the other bottomscrapers buffed as well! But Blizzard don't care. They don't listen. They don't give a shit basically.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't even know how to present your point.
What you really want is to ele/enhance to be viable, but you don't know what it would cost you.

It shouldn't cost my anything, to be honest.

Take a look at your own numbers: pure classes first.
Warlocks: 1 spec at top (ranked 8), 2 at very bottom. 1 out of 3.
Mages: 1 spec at the very top (ranked 3), 2 at the very bottom. 1 out of 3.
Rogues: 1 spec at the very top (ranked 2), 2 at the very bottom. 1 out of 3.
Hunters: Ahahahah, hunters.. hahahah

There's is that word again... "Pure classes". There is no such thing! It's an old way of thinking. Warlocks/Mages/Rogues/Hunters can still do damage if they want to. They are not forced into a different ROLE or another class if they want to DPS. You are completely missing my point, basically.

Doesn't matter that they're all dps. The advantage of being a pure is that your specs feels different enough to give you another playstyle. Almost like a different role. There are many people that don't enjoy afflic at all or combat at all and don't want to play those. What's left then? Isn't the same for resto shamans?

Of course it matters! There shouldn't be an advantage. There should be balance! And no, its not a different role. A caster is still a caster is still a caster. Ele =/= Healer. I know there are, and that sucks for them, but AT LEAST they are not forced to reroll to another character if they want to DPS as hybrids are, AND always have been forced to.

Point number 2: they CAN'T buff affliction/frost. Every warlock that knows how to play understand that affliction is locked for PVE buffs because of PVP. The only way they can do it is by messing with tier sets. Do you want enhanc/ele suffer from the same problem as well? It's very selfish, but it's your call.

Did I miss something? Why would you buff Affliction or Frost? They are doing great? I'd almost call them overpowered in fact. That's simply not true. There are perks, and PvP sets as well. They could do a number of different things to balance it out. It's not as complicated as you might think. It's selfish to want to PvP.... Waaaaaaa? I don't even.... I just want most spec to be somewhat viable in both PvP and PvE. Is that so much to ask!? You make it sound so complicated, when it's really not. Blizzard have already show that they can scale stats as well as abilities for PvP ONLY. Besides that they have talents, perks, tier sets, pvp sets AND masteries. They have A TON of options.

Point number 3: elemental maybe need a buff to mobility, but it has nothing to do with the other casters or how you're comparing different classes.

It has everything to do with them. I did it to show the imbalance, and how some casters always have been having a very easy time in PvP, while others clearly haven't. This is World of RogueCraft all over again, only that it's not only about Rogues now. It's about all the top tier specs in PvP. World of OPCraft if you will.
And no, ele needs more than that to be viable, imo. Our cc is lacking MILES behind other "good" classes. Just compare Hex with Polymorph, Deep Freeze with Capacitor Totem. And Blink with Ghost Wolf...? Is there even a Shaman equivalent of Blink? Nope! But don't worry. Druid have Displacer Beast, so it's K.

[Tyze]

OBS, OP isn't a PVPer btw.

[Deleted]

OBS, OP isn't a PVPer btw.

And you base this conclusion on what, exactly?

No, I have even touched PvP in this exansion. But is that really a surprise? I prefer to be able to defend myself, and not just be a target dummy.

[Pur1tas]

uhhm I always see you refering to Different DPS specs of the same class being equal because they are the same role, but they could not be more different. I do not know for meeles but I do know for Mages for example and the difference between playing Arcane, Frost or Fire is just as much as Playing Enhancement or Elemental. I mean they are COMPLETELY different. It is not even close to compareable.

So saying that these pure DPS classes can still play their character and role is just wrong, especially in PvP. The difference between Fire and Frost for mages is just as much of a playstyle change as it would be for an Elemental shaman to go Resto and heal. It is just VERY VERY different. This is even worse for Warlocks. Affliction just plays so very different from the other two specs (who play different from each other as well) that it is in no way the same thing. I think your point of saying mages are better off than shamans because they have one viable spec does just not apply just because of the reason that shamans have a spec that is viable as well.

The difference in specs for Casters is just as much as the difference between a healer and a caster. So I think while shamans do need a buff in PvP I do also think that some other specs need a buff much more, just considering that pure DPS class other specs are doing worse than Ele or Enhancement.

[Deleted]

It has everything to do with them. I did it to show the imbalance, and how some casters always have been having a very easy time in PvP, while others clearly haven't. This is World of RogueCraft all over again, only that it's not only about Rogues now. It's about all the top tier specs in PvP. World of OPCraft if you will.
And no, ele needs more than that to be viable, imo. Our cc is lacking MILES behind other "good" classes. Just compare Hex with Polymorph, Deep Freeze with Capacitor Totem. And Blink with Ghost Wolf...? Is there even a Shaman equivalent of Blink? Nope! But don't worry. Druid have Displacer Beast, so it's K.

He might want to buff them because they're weak in PvE. However that buff would break them even more in PvP, just like he said. Also, the reason ele/enh can't have a spammable CC is because they have heals. You'll notice that the only class with a spammable cc and spammable heals are restodruids that oddly enough dominate the ladders. Who would've thunk it?

Also, why'd you arbitrarily choose role as the line of division? Frost and Arcane are more different in playstyle than resto and balance.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it matters! There shouldn't be an advantage. There should be balance! And no, its not a different role. A caster is still a caster is still a caster. Ele =/= Healer. I know there are, and that sucks for them, but AT LEAST they are not forced to reroll to another character if they want to DPS as hybrids are, AND always have been forced to.

There should be an advantage. There is an advantage to playing a Shaman too, that you don't have to reroll to another character if you want to heal.

[PaladinBash]

All I'm seeing is that it's a player issue of being bad. OP cites the top rankings and points out that some shamans are good. OP is not one of these shamans and thus is mad that it's because "my class is bad" rather than "I am bad". I'm sure if those mages, warriors and druids would still be in those rankings on other classes if those other classes had more comps to work with and specs that were stronger. OP magically believes if his spec was good he would get out of the 1500s and magically get into gladiator range.

The top people are there because they're better than you. You are bad, OP. You just need to face that fact. If you don't play well, all the buffs in the world to your spec won't help you. I'm a ret paladin and there was a brief period at the start of this expansion where ret was an easy and powerful spec. Look how long that lasted. If shamans were buffed in the same way, all those good 2500+ players will play it, it'll go up the rankings and it will get nerfed. You will not go up the rankings yourself because you are not good. All that'll happen is you'll probably beat other 1500 baddies, break into the 1600s, then get stuck against people with more skill, hacks or better comp.

TL;DR op is bad

[Deleted]

All I'm seeing is that it's a player issue of being bad. OP cites the top rankings and points out that some shamans are good. OP is not one of these shamans and thus is mad that it's because "my class is bad" rather than "I am bad". I'm sure if those mages, warriors and druids would still be in those rankings on other classes if those other classes had more comps to work with and specs that were stronger. OP magically believes if his spec was good he would get out of the 1500s and magically get into gladiator range.

The top people are there because they're better than you. You are bad, OP. You just need to face that fact.

I think you missed the whole point where I said I have 2k experience... And besides that, everything you just wrote makes no sense.
First of all, I'm not mad, I'm fustrated. There's a difference. Also, it IS a case of my class is bad, which is CLEARLY shown in my first post if you actually bothered you read it. And no, I don't think I'll magically end as a gladiator, if ele was actually good. But I know my spec wouldn't struggle so damn much. The fact of the matter is than I have the before mentioned 2k exerience. I'm not a gladiator, but I'm an above average player, and I enjoy PvP. But how can I enjoy it, if I cannot play the spec that I love?

And you use the same logic as the people on youtube (bad sign). "You are not +2,6k material (World Champions), therefore you are bad." That kind of logic is STUPID beyond words. There clearly has to be different levels of play. The pros, the good, the average and the bad. I'd categorise myself as good (Not pro, not average, not bad. Just good), and that should be enough for an about 2k rating, since I've done it before. But why should any Affliction Warlock want to play with an Elemental Shaman atm? That's like wanting to fight a uphill battle. It's illogical.

If you don't play well, all the buffs in the world to your spec won't help you. I'm a ret paladin and there was a brief period at the start of this expansion where ret was an easy and powerful spec. Look how long that lasted.

Again, you are wrong. You are a paladin. You'll have to remember the redesign of Ret at the launch of WotLK, right? Did we see a HUGE explosion in not only popularity of the spec, but also how many we saw in high ranked arena? We saw so many ret paladins and DKs in season 5 that I wouldn't even be able to count them. And how hard was ret to play? That you could LITERALLY make a /castrandom macro, and STILL "pwn" people left and right. It took that much brain to do good. You could in every sense FACEROLL your way to high ranking.

If shamans were buffed in the same way, all those good 2500+ players will play it, it'll go up the rankings and it will get nerfed. You will not go up the rankings yourself because you are not good. All that'll happen is you'll probably beat other 1500 baddies, break into the 1600s, then get stuck against people with more skill, hacks or better comp.

So by your logic, Frost Mages wouldn't be buffed in PvP, because they are already good? They should actually be nerfed? *Looks at 6.1 Patch Notes* Riiiiiight. And no, it wouldn't be nerfed, because that should mean that Frost Mages should also be nerfed if they were OP. And since they ARE op and pretty much have been that nonstop since vanilla, I'd say you can take that theory and throw it out the window. They are in fact being buffed for PvP in the 6.1. And yes, ONLY in PvP. Just look for the PvP set bonus changes.

It really seems like you have read nothing I've said. So let me spell this out to you one more time in plain english: I am not bad. That's sorta the point of this whole thread, but I guess you missed that.

TL;DR op is bad

TL;DR You are bad at reading, have trouble with simple reasoning, and if I didn't know better, I'd say you are a troll.

Have a nice day.

[Tyze]

And you base this conclusion on what, exactly?

No, I have even touched PvP in this exansion. But is that really a surprise? I prefer to be able to defend myself, and not just be a target dummy.

Because I saw your post on the forums aswell. Why say something is fine when you haven't tried it yet? Go do some arenas, then come back crying

[Deleted]

Because I saw your post on the forums aswell. Why say something is fine when you haven't tried it yet? Go do some arenas, then come back crying

I prefer not to, to be honest. I already know how it's gonna end :/ I've been here before. Do I need to name early WotLK or Cata?

[Tyze]

I dont understand, do you defend Shamans in pvp?

[Deleted]

I dont understand, do you defend Shamans in pvp?

I want them to be buffed.