Heroes that don't feel like... ?

[Titebiere83]

Hello there,

I played for the first time Tassadar yesterday, and found myslef thinking "Why is he considered a support" ? Sure he have his shield, but it feels more like a "specialist" to me than a pure support.

The same happened with Sonya. She definitely feels more like an Assassin to me. That's the way I play her I guess (and doing fine with her).

What do you guys think ? Is there a hero you feel doesn't belong to his/her class ?


PS : sorry for bad english

[Pucek]

Personaly I think they should introduce secondary roles to champions to help explain how they operate. Champions would keep their main roles but for Sonya secod role would be assassin, same for Tyrande, Tassadar as you mentioned would have specialist sec. role etc.

This could also help with matchmaking where you get a team with Tyrande as "healer" and Sonya as "Tank" as they can fulfill that role but others do it much better.

[Noomz]

Hello there,

I played for the first time Tassadar yesterday, and found myslef thinking "Why is he considered a support" ? Sure he have his shield, but it feels more like a "specialist" to me than a pure support.

The same happened with Sonya. She definitely feels more like an Assassin to me. That's the way I play her I guess (and doing fine with her).

What do you guys think ? Is there a hero you feel doesn't belong to his/her class ?


PS : sorry for bad english

Yeah Tassadar feels like a specialist that happens to have some support capabilities in how he's played. But he's definetly very offensive for a support.

I feel like the definitions don't fit. Sonya is a good example too yeah, she's more like a Brawler than a "Warrior" aka tank. She's got damage, with survivability and decent HP.

[Aliessil]

As far as Supports go, I'd say both Tassadar and Tyrande feel more like assassin+support hybrids.
I'd almost put Uther as a support+warrior too, since he's pretty tanky.

Definitely agree Sonya's a warrior+assassin, and maybe Nazeebo's a specialist+assassin?

They're the ones I've played which felt most like they filled two roles.

[Deleted]

Yeah Tassadar feels like a specialist that happens to have some support capabilities in how he's played. But he's definetly very offensive for a support.

I feel like the definitions don't fit. Sonya is a good example too yeah, she's more like a Brawler than a "Warrior" aka tank. She's got damage, with survivability and decent HP.

I think that the problem is that Blizzard is grouping too many archetypes together.
If you look at LoL for example you have.
Warrior
Assassin
Mage
Bruiser
Tank
etc etc

that maybe is even too granular, because sometimes the differences are in the nuances on how they are played more than anything else.

[Lesane]

To be honest, it's fine as long as they'll have some behind the screens coding for those heroes when it comes to matchmaking and doesn't make Tassadar count as a full support like an Uther would've been.

[Feali]

To be honest, it's fine as long as they'll have some behind the screens coding for those heroes when it comes to matchmaking and doesn't make Tassadar count as a full support like an Uther would've been.

I don't think that's how it works if I can get queued up with an Arthas and Diablo as Tyrael just after 3 seconds of being in the queue.

[Lesane]

I don't think that's how it works if I can get queued up with an Arthas and Diablo as Tyrael just after 3 seconds of being in the queue.

Yeah matchmaking is still garbage, glad I have hero league to play instead now.

[Aliessil]

Yeah matchmaking is still garbage, glad I have hero league to play instead now.

Trouble is, you don't get any gold from Hero League (or at least, not that I've noticed). If you got the same 20g + 10 for a win as you do in quick matches, I'd play them a lot more!

[Feali]

Trouble is, you don't get any gold from Hero League (or at least, not that I've noticed). If you got the same 20g + 10 for a win as you do in quick matches, I'd play them a lot more!

You don't? Have you checked "summary". I can't remember if it shows gold.

[Aliessil]

You don't? Have you checked "summary". I can't remember if it shows gold.

Ah it's listed in the summary now, you're quite right. I could swear the last one I did, gold wasn't mentioned at all (that was only 11 days ago!). Maybe I was just being blind ...

[Tziva]

I think that the problem is that Blizzard is grouping too many archetypes together.
If you look at LoL for example you have.
Warrior
Assassin
Mage
Bruiser
Tank
etc etc

that maybe is even too granular, because sometimes the differences are in the nuances on how they are played more than anything else.

I think the grouping into four main categories is better, and prevents there from being a bunch of label bloat for essentially the same things.

I think most people can understand the concept of amorphous categories that sometimes nudge the edge or even overlap with other categories based on your customisation. It's a lot more intuitive to say that there are warriors that can be more tanky or warriors that can be more DPSy, and you can spec them further into those roles with talents if desired (or keep them middle of the road)... than to expect people to memorise a huge list of categories of different types or subtypes.

As long as it's clear that the general classes are more like a venn diagram than a strict categories, I don't see anything wrong with the current system.

[Lesane]

Trouble is, you don't get any gold from Hero League (or at least, not that I've noticed). If you got the same 20g + 10 for a win as you do in quick matches, I'd play them a lot more!

You definitely get gold and experience in Hero League, it's just not shown as the default tab at the end of the game. As someone else noted, just switch to Summary and you'll see it.

[Nikkaszal]

They need to give Tyrande a new Q, rework some of her talents and relabel her as an Assassin.

She's a rubbish support anyway and the only effective builds on her are based around being a damage dealer.

There are also FOUR other Warcraft supports besides Tyrande.

[AeneasBK]

They need to give Tyrande a new Q, rework some of her talents and relabel her as an Assassin.

She's a rubbish support anyway and the only effective builds on her are based around being a damage dealer.

There are also FOUR other Warcraft supports besides Tyrande.

I always play Tyrande as an assassin and get moaned at for not healing enough or playing supporty enough. Tried saying a few times "Kinda more a dmg dealer than healer" but didn't help.

I mean, c'mawn, you Hunters Mark, pop flame arrows during the AS buff, and lay the stun on top of you and oh no, their warrior is on 20% and oh is he trying to run.... BAM owl in the backside....

(I'm pretty crap at Tyrande, but pulling that shit off is hilarious).

Not to mention the "across the map owl snipes"...

[Halyon]

I agree with Tassadar. He's too offensively strong to be a support. And I main Brightwing. She's offensive as fuck, but I can't consistantly pump out the damage OR utility that Tassadar can. And I've killed people. Solo. With Brightwing.

Sonya? She's a warrior. She's def. not an assassin. She's strong, and the Whirlwind heal is disgusting if talented right, but she's not assassin material...

I'm still annoyed over Illidan not being an assassin either, speaking of which, despite being labeled one. Assassins kill people fast. Illidan has no burst compared to other assassins (looking at you Zeratool), what he has is double-sided tape sticking power. If you can't cross walls, 1v1, he will be up your ass until one of you gets a solid case of dead. And Metamorphosis Illidan is extremely hard to kill. Especially solo.

And if you're really unlucky, a fed Hunt Illidan with Global Range...GL living if you have low health and isn't, say Chen or some other bulky thing with some clutch saves.

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snip

Well, depending on the situation, I'd moan at you too.

If your team f.ex. lacked a support (other than you) expecting you to be able to actually heal someone out of a pinch, is standard of Tyrande.

[Nikkaszal]

I agree with Tassadar. He's too offensively strong to be a support. And I main Brightwing. She's offensive as fuck, but I can't consistantly pump out the damage OR utility that Tassadar can. And I've killed people. Solo. With Brightwing.

Sonya? She's a warrior. She's def. not an assassin. She's strong, and the Whirlwind heal is disgusting if talented right, but she's not assassin material...

I'm still annoyed over Illidan not being an assassin either, speaking of which, despite being labeled one. Assassins kill people fast. Illidan has no burst compared to other assassins (looking at you Zeratool), what he has is double-sided tape sticking power. If you can't cross walls, 1v1, he will be up your ass until one of you gets a solid case of dead. And Metamorphosis Illidan is extremely hard to kill. Especially solo.

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Well, depending on the situation, I'd moan at you too.

If your team f.ex. lacked a support (other than you) expecting you to be able to actually heal someone out of a pinch, is standard of Tyrande.

Tyrande is garbage at healing. Trying to build her into one is a waste of a team slot. The only thing she's good at doing is damage, while tossing out her piddly heal here and there when able to.

If you expect Tyrande to solo-support a team as a "proper" support then you're going to lose anyway. She can't.

[Halyon]

Tyrande is garbage at healing. Trying to build her into one is a waste of a team slot. The only thing she's good at doing is damage, while tossing out her piddly heal here and there when able to.

If you expect Tyrande to solo-support a team as a "proper" support then you're going to lose anyway. She can't.

I never said that. But she should be able to heal someone in a pinch that will actually make them survive. Her un-talented heal will do fuck all. 1 save can make or break a TF. Like you save the strongest player, the fed Nova/'Tul, or the frontline controller, and it could mean everything is kept in your favor.

And it isn't all her talent points spent at it, so it's not like it'll hinder anyone that much. And with the talent system, you're never FORCED to take certain talents for something all the time, it depends on team comp. Like if your team has a Lili, building heal on Tyrande is a waste of time, because that's Lili's trade in the un-funny department. If your other support is f.ex. Brightwing, and if they play her decently, you can make it without Tyrande having a heal, although it'd help to talent it bigger. If your only support that can heal is Tyrande, not talenting it is stupid.

Edit: And while she's labeled a support, that's what people expect. Expecting all supports to be healers is retarded (and I frequently have a go at people over that, since I main Brightwing), and yes, Tyrande is an agressive support, so she should be agressive, and enable her team to be agressive as well, and if that means having a heal that can actually save someone, then that's what you do. The day she's labeled an assassin/specialist/whatevs, then there's no issue, and I wouldn't talent heal on her either, if it'd even stay on her.

[Nikkaszal]

The guy you quoted originally was being moaned at for "not healing enough". That's the point. People don't know that Tyrande is a rubbish healer and expect her to put out the same throughput as other supps, which whe CANNOT do. So you can toss a heal here and there to try and save people - no argument there - but actually talenting for it is a hideously bad idea - instead of having a proper damage dealer with shit heals, or someone who can't do damage at all but has average heals (full supp build), trying to mix it means you get someone who doesn't do enough damage OR healing to be effective.

You can't try and jack-of-all-trades Tyrande. She sucks at it. You build damage because that is the ONLY thing she's good at.

If your team has no other supp you STILL build damage, because you have no other choice than bursting people down with the damage advantage.

[apepi]

Healing is not only about healing. A big part of it is things like vision, which Tassader is good at. Though you could argue that Abathur could be included as a support if played right.