BM Enchanting/Gem ?

[Onesie]

So did it change lately from enchant/gem all mastery to haste now? I keep seeing conflicting posts/armory's . Thanks!

[vampiricx]

Definitely haste for BM.

[SlippyCheeze]

Definitely haste for BM.

Where by "definitely" you mean "by the slimmest of margins ever". Check the weights in Azorthian's guide, linked from the obvious thread on the first post, and you will see that pretty much every secondary is approximately equal for BM. Haste wins but, really, if you don't regem you lose so little DPS that it probably gets swallowed by delaying KC a half second once in the fight...

[Gaaz]

Not entirely sure about that myself. My hunter (677ilvl) sims multistrike and mastery much, much higher than haste for single target. In fact, haste seems to be last for me in single target priorities, at approximately 1\2 value of either mastery or multistrike. When it comes to increasing tha number of targets, multistrike drops to the last place very rapidly. With 3 targets, is is about equal to haste, with 6 it is dead last. But haste never really catches to mastery in terms of value. Well, not unless we are talking ridiculous number of targets - something like 30+. At 12 targets mastery is still ahead for me by a considerable margin.
Short answer is - unless you are very close to the BiS gear, I would not change mastery enchants to haste. Breakpoint is somewhere around 690 ilvl

[Deleted]

Haste's value is higher on multi target (the vast majority of current contenct) bc keeping up Beast Cleave is so gluttonous on focus.

[HonneurVilified]

Keep in mind that going full haste really shoots yourself in the foot if you decide you ever want to play another spec. All the secondaries are fairly close for BM but haste is absolutely garbage for MM/SV. If you plan on playing SV/MM ever, or want to leave the option open without spending a lot of gold (depending on how many gem slots you have) to switch, you could just stick with multistrike, which is pretty good for all three specs.

[vampiricx]

Where by "definitely" you mean "by the slimmest of margins ever". Check the weights in Azorthian's guide, linked from the obvious thread on the first post, and you will see that pretty much every secondary is approximately equal for BM. Haste wins but, really, if you don't regem you lose so little DPS that it probably gets swallowed by delaying KC a half second once in the fight...

Good thing OP didn't ask about every other stat, right? Azor's stats are done by real-world testing. Haste is better than Mastery. Simple as that. No need to attempt to be a dick about it.

[Menubrea]

Where by "definitely" you mean "by the slimmest of margins ever". Check the weights in Azorthian's guide, linked from the obvious thread on the first post, and you will see that pretty much every secondary is approximately equal for BM. Haste wins but, really, if you don't regem you lose so little DPS that it probably gets swallowed by delaying KC a half second once in the fight...

Honestly I don't think haste is only better because of the DPS it provides, it also makes uptime on Beast Cleave/Steady Focus a lot easier to maintain without delaying other abilities.

[Deleted]

Honestly I don't think haste is only better because of the DPS it provides, it also makes uptime on Beast Cleave/Steady Focus a lot easier to maintain without delaying other abilities.

Those things you mentioned are inherently DPS as well.

[Menubrea]

Those things you mentioned are inherently DPS as well.

Well yes, but what I'm trying to say is that not only is haste the best stat in terms of raw numbers, it also makes the spec easier to play.

[Deleted]

Good thing OP didn't ask about every other stat, right? Azor's stats are done by real-world testing. Haste is better than Mastery. Simple as that. No need to attempt to be a dick about it.

What's that "real-world testing" supposed to be? Sounds as if he'd spam lfr queues all day long to go from boss to boss with every possible stat setup going "hm yeah, this seemed good".
From what I've read by him he's pretty adamant about following what math suggests. If Haste performs about equal to the other stats in single target sims and better in AoE sims (if ever so slightly), then that's enough reason for him to suggest Haste as the best stat. Which is valid when factoring in all of the encounters in BRF and looking for what stat would yield the highest overall DPS when playing BM exclusively.
The issues with this are just that
a) while there's "only" three pure single target encounters (Gruul, Oregorger, Blackhand), the others aren't exactly comparable to some 6 minute AoE sims either
b) in the "real world", for a "real" player, BM might not always be the best spec choice for every fight
c) overall DPS isn't everything; even if BM is the best spec and even if Haste would yield the highest DPS in the end, that still doesn't necessarily make it the best choice if burst or execute dps is more relevant for beating the encounter

Also, how is the guy you were quoting attempting to be a dick about anything? Seems like a perfectly reasonable comment to me. If someone was asking for the go-to stat for SV, one could easily say "definitely multistrike". But "definitely haste" for BM? I don't know about that.

[SlippyCheeze]

What's that "real-world testing" supposed to be? Sounds as if he'd spam lfr queues all day long to go from boss to boss with every possible stat setup going "hm yeah, this seemed good".
From what I've read by him he's pretty adamant about following what math suggests. If Haste performs about equal to the other stats in single target sims and better in AoE sims (if ever so slightly), then that's enough reason for him to suggest Haste as the best stat. Which is valid when factoring in all of the encounters in BRF and looking for what stat would yield the highest overall DPS when playing BM exclusively.
The issues with this are just that
a) while there's "only" three pure single target encounters (Gruul, Oregorger, Blackhand), the others aren't exactly comparable to some 6 minute AoE sims either
b) in the "real world", for a "real" player, BM might not always be the best spec choice for every fight
c) overall DPS isn't everything; even if BM is the best spec and even if Haste would yield the highest DPS in the end, that still doesn't necessarily make it the best choice if burst or execute dps is more relevant for beating the encounter

Az pretty much uses "real-world testing", and "real-world experience" to mean "I actually raid, and so have some idea what the fights are like, progression is like, etc". Which is honestly a pretty reasonable thing to base stat weights off -- in the sense that he uses it to shape the numbers around what sims say are best for various types of fight *other* than the classic and pointless Patchwerk fight that we never see these days.

Anyway, Az (and I) are big on follow the numbers: in this case the number say that haste wins by such a small margin that you can use multi-strike or mastery without worrying. The weights are haste 0.49, mast 0.48, multi 0.47, with agi at 1. In my own testing without normalized numbers agi was around 5 DPS-per-point-gain, so that means the delta between 1 haste and 1 multistrike would be around ... 0.1DPS. We get in the region of 100-150 of a secondary in a standard bit of gear, so that would make it around 10-15DPS difference between the two.

Perhaps coincidentally the margin for error on my sims was around 10-15DPS, which means that this is (at least as far as my sims are concerned) literally at the level of noise in the result. In other words: the math is entirely happy if you keep sitting in your mastery or multi-strike gemmed and enchanted gear. Crit and vers do poorly enough that you should probably start thinking about moving to a better performing secondary when you can, but you are still talking maybe 100DPS difference on the average piece, so... not that dire.

So, yeah, you pretty much sum up my thinking -- and there is some more detail for the audience at home. For BM those three stats are so close that you would be hard pressed to detect the difference over the course of a fight, even a 15 minutes fight. (Plus, uh, IDK about you but in the average 15 minutes fight like Iron Maidens I manage to screw something up like letting beast cleave drop for a moment, or delaying kill command by more than half a CS because I miscalculated, and it wouldn't take many of those mistakes to be the entire difference between the two...)

[Gaaz]

I think some people miss the point here. Haste is actually worse than mastery for BM hunters single AND multitarget, unless you are very close to the BiS gear. I simmed several guild hunters with item levels 650-680, and for all of them mastery was more powerful than haste. The only simulation when haste actually surpassed mastery in terms of value was BiS geared hunter sample.
So yes, theoretically speaking, haste is the go to stat for full mythic geared BM hunters. But in practice, you better sim your own character to determine its value. Otherwise you have an extremely high chance of gimping yourself instead of increasing DPS.

[Menubrea]

I think some people miss the point here. Haste is actually worse than mastery for BM hunters single AND multitarget, unless you are very close to the BiS gear. I simmed several guild hunters with item levels 650-680, and for all of them mastery was more powerful than haste. The only simulation when haste actually surpassed mastery in terms of value was BiS geared hunter sample.
So yes, theoretically speaking, haste is the go to stat for full mythic geared BM hunters. But in practice, you better sim your own character to determine its value. Otherwise you have an extremely high chance of gimping yourself instead of increasing DPS.

Simming single target I get .44 for Mastery and .39 for Haste, meanwhile against 3 and 6 targets I get .49 Haste and .47 Mastery. So no, not for both single target and multi-target. At least not for me. Even if it is a bit weaker single target, I still think it's a good idea to good idea to get a decent amount of haste to make the the spec feel more streamlined. A good mix of both is probably ideal.

[Deleted]

I think some people miss the point here. Haste is actually worse than mastery for BM hunters single AND multitarget, unless you are very close to the BiS gear. I simmed several guild hunters with item levels 650-680, and for all of them mastery was more powerful than haste. The only simulation when haste actually surpassed mastery in terms of value was BiS geared hunter sample.
So yes, theoretically speaking, haste is the go to stat for full mythic geared BM hunters. But in practice, you better sim your own character to determine its value. Otherwise you have an extremely high chance of gimping yourself instead of increasing DPS.

I've ilvl 672 (4p 665-set)

Mastery sims as high as Multistrike on ST for me with haste being 0,05 lower
Haste sims 0,05 higher than Mastery on 3 targets though, doesn't matter whether I use "hectic cleave fight" (whatever that's supposed to mean) or "patchwerk"

I started to mix things up because of that.... I don't know whether that's correct or not, I've 5 gem slots, it's kinda expensive to switch around. I can't play SV now because of that. Switching to mastery/haste over multistrike as SV feels like such a waste. It's like having 125 points of stats instead of 250. If we add enchants its ~250 vs 500.

Tbh it feels like I did a mistake by switching out of multistrike... its still very strong for BM (after gemming for mastery, MS was ahead of every other stat) and since most bosses, except for maidens, involve short bursts of AoE, haste feels kinda useless compared to mastery or multistrike. They are way stronger than haste on ST (with lower itemlevels and if we are to believe simcraft ) and in the end. boss damage or focus targets are what matter the most.

[Menubrea]

I've ilvl 672 (4p 665-set)

Tbh it feels like I did a mistake by switching out of multistrike... its still very strong for BM (after gemming for mastery MS was ahead of every other stat) and since most bosses, except for maidens, involve short bursts of AoE, haste feels kinda useless compared to mastery or multistrike. They are way stronger than haste on ST (with lower itemlevels and if we are to believe simcraft ) and in the end. boss damage or focus targets are what matter the most.

Single target I get .44 Mastery, .40 Multistrike, .39 Haste, .38 Crit and .36 Versatility.

3 targets I get .49 Haste, .47 Mastery, .39 Crit, .37 Multistrike and .37 Versatility.

Haste looks better than Multistrike as it's only marginally ahead for single target.

[Deleted]

Single target I get .44 Mastery, .40 Multistrike, .39 Haste, .38 Crit and .36 Versatility.

3 targets I get .49 Haste, .47 Mastery, .39 Crit, .37 Multistrike and .37 Versatility.

Haste looks better than Multistrike as it's only marginally ahead for single target.

Single target: 0.43 Multistrike, 0.42 Mastery, 0.39 Haste
that's how it sims for me.
Yes haste is stronger with more targets, but if we sim it, it's always "sustained AoE" is it not? There is only 1 fight in BRF where this is true.

At this point in time, I'm saying it's mastery > haste.

[Deleted]

All of your sims are using the wrong methodology.

Mastery is better, it has been estabilished, but please don't attempt theorycraft unless you know exactly what goes into it, guys

[Deleted]

All of your sims are using the wrong methodology.

Mastery is better, it has been estabilished, but please don't attempt theorycraft unless you know exactly what goes into it, guys

and what makes you (and is supposed to make *us*) believe that you know any better? Your post isn't helping at all.

[Menubrea]

All of your sims are using the wrong methodology.

Mastery is better, it has been estabilished, but please don't attempt theorycraft unless you know exactly what goes into it, guys

If you think there's any flaws with methods used you could be helpful and provide insight instead of coming off as condescending, and providing nothing of use at all.