If night elves are still so popular why are they been trashed all the time?

[ravenmoon]

would have been better to give the horde the savages night elves wcIII and give the alliance the current lawful holy blood elves

that I agree with.. although the blood elves aren't lawful holy, more like chaotic good.. and it's the night elves that are lawful good and yet have an animalistic savagery in battle - at least as far as the druids are concerned.

high civilization grounded in nature, rather than nature bending feats, pristine etc but it's avery natural beauty.. night elves are quite sophisticated, but not pompous, very down to earth, it's a contrast, they don't exactly live in trees, yet that's exactly what they do. Their soceity did not devolve, it ascended - they've done the high stone/marble buildings which they still use though very few, and now have the beautiful delicate more naturally carved out by nature magic homes.


they would have been the perfect civilized compliment to the horde, allies yet in tension with the orcs they would have to keep reeling in Eventually the horde will fracture, the night elves would take the Tauren and worgen with them, the goblins and trolls staying with the orcs. The forsaken and blood elves would be in a separate faction with the Draenei that had split from the human's alliance largely because of tension between the now vastly undead Lorderaon and Stormwind over trust ofc and the whole freaked out over undeath thing by the humans, but they'd still team up against the orcs and night elves. Meanwhile the night elves would split from the orcs due to thier too headstrong, too rash behaviour and refusal too leave behind fel warlockism and arcane practices, disgust at trolls still doing voodoo shit ends up being too much to make this work, they separate but still team up against the alliance and forsaken

[Graeham]

would have been better to give the horde the savages night elves wcIII and give the alliance the current lawful holy blood elves

Nah. It'd be far better for the game to have launched with a third faction heavily driven by elven affairs. Morally ambigious, savage and gritty - combining all the best elements of the original portrayal of blood elves and night elves. You know, the stuff that drew in the original fans of both races rather than those who fawn over them based on their current awkward portrayal.

With that said, Blizzard are very unlikely to change anything. Their storytelling is arguably becoming worse rather than better and many people are caught in the trap of holding on in case something does improve.

[Deleted]

Night Elves maybe could be ok in the Horde, but only if Warsong Clan wouldn't still chopping their woods and if Forsaken wouldn't be in the Horde. Anyway I would rather like to see them in third, neutral playable faction, than in Alliance or Horde. But if they are in Alliance - it's still ok, but for me they should be neutral with the rest of the Alliance, and player who would like to make quests for them, should make some quests to gain reputation (in my perfect WoW, player also should make some rep quests to could enter into, for example Stormwind Keep and see the king. It would be more RPG-alike.). And there should be completely no humans in Teldrassil and Darnassus, maybe except one or two being an ambassadors (and titled amassadors, not the battlemasters for example). In Darkshore - ok, this is at least port town - but not in Teldrassil. They are too xenophobic for allowing foreigners live in their sacred lands.
Now Teldrassil is full of Gilneans. Worgen or not, they're still humans. I cannot feel the athmosphere of secret elven city, full of elves, Cenarius' children (well... why there's no any dryad around Darnassus?! Isn't on whole Teldrassil only one dryad, Taindrella?!), wisps, walking trees, druids in their animal forms etc., if there's so many humans around saying "keep your chin upey".

Someone's also said about chimaeras. Why Night Elves don't keep them as their pets in WoW? They even rarely have even faerie dragons. And what's about mountain giants? They are ingame, of course, but all of them are hostile of neutral for every player, I never seen any that would be in "Darnassus" or even "Cenarion Circle" faction. Too low number of Ancients (and completely lack of Trees of Life in settlements) and treants being allied with NElves also is sad. There should be even more moonwells, the one for settlement and few more in Darnassus or Moonglade.

And if they should be highly civilised... hmm, yes and not, too. I consider them rather as similar to Amish. They were, in fact, very highly civilised, but they abandoned most of luxury that civilisation grants - becuase their civilisation was corrupted and full of sins. So they resigned this, abandoned most of their bigger cities, and have chosen living in modest huts made of wood and stone, sometimes even as houses of still living trees. Some of them even were sleeping under the sky. So, they are technically "savage" (or "primal" or "wild" maybe would be better word), but in different way than for example taurens or orcs living in tribal society (well, orcs no longer of course, they are civilised now, but I mean mostly origin of orcs on Draenor where their societies had tribal systems), because Night Elven have their "primordiality" because of their choice - choice to avoid luxury and pride of their ascedants, because that pride led world to Sundering.

So I think they're both civilided and primal. Maybe I'm wrong, this is just what I'm interpret following the informations known from Warcraft 3, RPG manuals, early WoW and WoTA books. But I can be wrong.

[PaladinBash]

Elves are a punching bag in almost every setting. They will get people talking about how cool and awesome they are a a lot and will, sometimes, even get to do something maybe not impressive but at least useful...albeit at great and irreplaceable cost. That's all they are in Warcraft until they get a Draenei-tier revamp and Tyrande actually gets to do stuff without being told to hush. It'd happen for the ever-wanked-over 'Emerald Dream' expansion if it ever comes around. Until then no, Night Elves will just be someone cool to make the Alliance look better for hanging out with them or the orcs look hardcore for beating them up. I hate knife-ears as much as anyone but look at Wolfheart- ORCS wrecked Night Elf sentinels at night in Ashenvale. Not even just stood up to them, not even took advantage of them, but absolutely fucking wiped the floor with them with ease. That's blatant Elf incompetence right there to set up the orcs as cool and Varian as cooler for saving them. It happens to Elves in every setting.

[ravenmoon]

Stopped reading there. They are clearly not the Fan Favorite ... just look at statistics of most played races.

you shouldn't have. there other factors that can lead to one race been picked over another. In the case of blood elves, it's cos they were until 6.0, the only really pretty looking model in the game..that had much more to do with it than the lore. Humans would always be popular, because that's what we are and most people play a character they see themselves as or that they feel represents them, even it isn't all that to look at. Further most new players would find other races including elves b/c of their etremely exaggerated ears rather weird looking so would pick human until they get use to the others and try them. Most not all

if you've ever shown wow to completely new people and more than one, throughout the games life, that tends to be the case, settling either on human or blood elf and ignoring the rest.

The older fans more into the lore tend to have quite the soft spot for night elves. But the point I was making was not that they were the most popular race exclusively, but that they were one of the most popular races, in that "for such a fan fave race", they sure have been written badly and dealth with badly. usually cool and exciting stuff happens with races that are popular with the fans, night elves just seem to get shafted, and it's puzzling they are doing that given how popular they are, was what i was trying to convey.

[Deleted]

It feels like whoever did nightelves in WCIII died, and the job of continuing their lore was inherited by an uninspired hack:

Ok, lets see here, Ok, should we make sentinels playable as paladins? Nah. Oh lets make female druids a thing. Tyrande, I feel like her voice should be more tribal, less like an ancient and wise queen, more like a troll witch doctor. Oh oh, horde is invading Ashenvale? Cool, instead of making that a vietnam-esque nightmare for them, lets make it that the Horde thrashes the night elves on their home turf. What was the defining trait of their society again? Oh that's right, theocratic moonworshippers, founded on a schism with the despised and corrupt arcanist aristocracy. Let's make mage playable. No, not paladin, mage. How? I dunno, they welcome the highbourne back? Whatever. It'll be sick, you'll see. What else? Should we have them expand southward and re-establish their dominion over the wilder parts of kalimdor? Nah, lets leave that uninhabited.

Awesome stuff, I like what we have here.

[Mace]

I'm not seeing a whole lot of interest for any other races either.

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Lol, it's quite the other way around. It's called the Alliance because it's an Alliance. The Horde is nothing more but orcs keeping the other races in line. Remember Garrosh's "Horde", it's exactly like that but more on the down low. The Horde races don't leave it because on their own they are nothing, powerless against even one of the Alliance's nations, so the Horde races put up with eachother even though some hate eachother's guts (blood elves and trolls - enemies for thousands of years, blood elves and orcs - enemies throughout the 3 wars), because they have little other choice.

you are speaking my language. QFT.. that element is really missing, and it's not like it's progressed or evolved in a logical way, it's like they don't really understand the heart of the conflict and aren't doing a good job of portraying and representing the heart of what each is supposed to be.

The horde has turned into the alliance, and the alliance has turned into the horde, and the way things are does not fit the MO of the individual races at all. The night elves would never be so easily bullied, cowed or pushed aside, nor would they be so emboldening and supportive of everything the humans do. cibilized and serene, but also wise and firm. As RM says, you expect to see them more focused on global matters leaving alliance affairs to humans but when stepping up kinda dictating the whole course of action, and generally the ones everyone else defers too. that in itself creates some tension between the humans' top brass who find it too interfering, but not sure how to react, half in awe, half terrified of them

Gilneas Worgens should no where be that comfortable with humans either, most of management remember Gilneas' betrayal and whiles they are in the alliance because of the insistence of the night elves' it's not all cosy and lets kiss and make up, humans are fearful of night elves dark and shadowy imposing and distrustful of Gilneans and downright scared of worgens - they'd rather not deal with them - let them stay with their night elf friends on the other side of the world, we'll use them, as they're great fighters, but only cos we have to, no love lost - they were willing to abandon us onece.

and whiles not every human would see it that way, with many willing to let it go, yet there is apprehension and it is better for all that the bulk of the worgen are out of sight, staying with the night elves.

The forsaken should be downright despised by the Tauren, their very existence is an affront to ntaure, and whiles for a coroperation sake they can lay aside their reservations, they don't wan tto be near them, even though they want to help them... Forsaken make the fearless Tauren quite nervous and jittery, almost like a mouse makes an elephant nervous.

Blood elves should still be full of hate for the Orcs and Trolls, it was not an ideal situation that brought them there, part manipulation on Kael'thas' part, part desperation, initially the horde were the puppets they were using to get them to outland, turned out to be strong allies, and the new blood elf philosophy values strength, but respect is not love, and survival is more important than any other thing, logic dictates that for now, the best chances are with the horde, even though Kael'thas is hated for what he did, they somewhat blame the humans for driving their beloved prince crazy, and also in a weird and un-elflike illogical way, blame them for the scourge attack that ruined quel'thalas even though the humans suffered just as badly and were betrayed, even though elven defenses fell due to an elf's betrayal, and even though the controlling force behind Arthas' actions was an Orc and utlimately the Legion.

Yet, becuase of the betrayal, humans have made it clear of their distrust for those that called themselves blood elves, because they switched sides, and you just don't do that. Those that call themselves High elves have remained loyal, humans like that.

Meanwhile I expected to see strong ties develop with the Tauren, but deep distrust and hatreds between the blood elves and the trolls -

blizzard are incapable it seems of writing from a different perspective.... Delving into say the Blood elves world, the major concerns of the orcs are near peripheral for them, the night elves' world , the issue with magic users is far larger than any issue with Orcs knowing that much more is at stake etc etc.


I think overall, it lacks leadership. I call Chris Metzen to account for that. He has not been leading creative development well at all. When he was largely in control of the story, it had purpose, direction harmony in an interesting sense, it's like he's gone way too hands off, and now they're writing all over the place. Night elves are not like night elves at all, waht should have been or revealed as brilliant twists to their pasts are appearing as lame twists and betrayals to the original concept which fans prefer all round. Meanwhile a heavy absorbed focus on human/orcs especially orcs coupled with an unrealistic and rather dull portrayal of inter-racial interactions that just doesn't fit is a sign of bad writing.

you may be able to write interesting and engaging quests, and if you're good at that, then you do that, but the lore is more than that, it involves the direction, personality, character, of both the race and individuals, tehse things need to come out too especially if quests are the only source of portraying the character and personality of a race, it's more than just doing an interesting activity with an interesting plot. when you're using all the wrong races for the NPCs and other parties involved etc etc, then it just feels weird, and people pick up on that.

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Nah. It'd be far better for the game to have launched with a third faction heavily driven by elven affairs. Morally ambigious, savage and gritty - combining all the best elements of the original portrayal of blood elves and night elves. You know, the stuff that drew in the original fans of both races rather than those who fawn over them based on their current awkward portrayal.

With that said, Blizzard are very unlikely to change anything. Their storytelling is arguably becoming worse rather than better and many people are caught in the trap of holding on in case something does improve.

yep, agreed, at least for the story.

and yeah, the trap of maybe it might get better, but hey, it's creative development that has to change. And blizzard strike me as a really loyal company, they'd keep a guy around because he's been there a long time even though he wasn't up to scratch, and i kinda like that about them, they stuck with the guy who did the topography art - models for trees and mountains, and those were awful in the original but every expansion they got better and better, so he definitely improved.

Metzen isn't writing the quests for the MMO, which is why it's suffering like it is, he should be doing each section, and be very hands on in the direction, it's something else to write the plot for the strategy game, that's a plot that is followed thorugh and you can go through the one script for the whole game, it's like a moview right, but an MMO is a lot more work, there are thousands of quests, literally thousands, and by the tiem they decided to do a linear story line for the quests instead of open world, he had long since been off the handling of the details, and didn't really start. he didnt'what the main story line would be and the team wrote the quests, messing up the portrayal of the night elves, messing up the reactions of things , mis-interpreting what the fans wanted, Fans wanted an alliance that was strong and winning things, how did that translate to given High Overlord Varian:'? that means nothing if you're not actually winning some victories, it's not what they really wanted. they felt neglected, less relevant and out of the spotlight, playign second fiddle to the horde side, High King still seems out of place or the way it was introduced or handled was poor.

[Deleted]

It feels like whoever did nightelves in WCIII died, and the job of continuing their lore was inherited by an uninspired hack:

Yes... the quote of Some Fool you posted, it's exactly how I feel. Especially this line:

Oh oh, horde is invading Ashenvale? Cool, instead of making that a vietnam-esque nightmare for them, lets make it that the Horde thrashes the night elves on their home turf.

So much this. That is so f*cking sad true. In vanilla it wasn't as clear, but after Cataclysm and "Stormrage" novel... well. Someone just don't love NElves anymore.

And there could be different. As I said, a lots of heads on sticks and orc bodies hanging on trees on whole Ashenvale/Barrens border. But no. Not in World of Orccraft. Night Elves just aren't dangerous anymore. Wild, proud alpha wolf turned into fluffy poodle that is scared even of rats.

Bah, Night Elves even have almost no their own aesthetics expressed by gear available to players. What is really weird, because ingame there's alot of gear looking Blood Elven, draenic or orcish. But Night Elven? Only the druid sets, that's obvious. And maybe hunter's pvp sets like Savage, Hateful and Deadly Gladiator. But that's all. There's no way to wield glaives for example, or characteristical Night Elven owl-alike helmet. Don't want to mention their current ingame models, what are real botch in comparison to models of orcs (orcs, always orcs... this is funny because I really like orcs, but making them always BEST & BADASS is making me sick). Probably the only thing that Night Elves have still truly epic, is their architecture and epic pvp tiger mount with glaives on armor. And NE male's dance.

[ravenmoon]

Night Elves maybe could be ok in the Horde, but only if Warsong Clan wouldn't still chopping their woods and if Forsaken wouldn't be in the Horde. Anyway I would rather like to see them in third, neutral playable faction, than in Alliance or Horde. But if they are in Alliance - it's still ok, but for me they should be neutral with the rest of the Alliance, and player who would like to make quests for them, should make some quests to gain reputation (in my perfect WoW, player also should make some rep quests to could enter into, for example Stormwind Keep and see the king. It would be more RPG-alike.). And there should be completely no humans in Teldrassil and Darnassus, maybe except one or two being an ambassadors (and titled amassadors, not the battlemasters for example). In Darkshore - ok, this is at least port town - but not in Teldrassil. They are too xenophobic for allowing foreigners live in their sacred lands.
Now Teldrassil is full of Gilneans. Worgen or not, they're still humans. I cannot feel the athmosphere of secret elven city, full of elves, Cenarius' children (well... why there's no any dryad around Darnassus?! Isn't on whole Teldrassil only one dryad, Taindrella?!), wisps, walking trees, druids in their animal forms etc., if there's so many humans around saying "keep your chin upey".

Someone's also said about chimaeras. Why Night Elves don't keep them as their pets in WoW? They even rarely have even faerie dragons. And what's about mountain giants? They are ingame, of course, but all of them are hostile of neutral for every player, I never seen any that would be in "Darnassus" or even "Cenarion Circle" faction. Too low number of Ancients (and completely lack of Trees of Life in settlements) and treants being allied with NElves also is sad. There should be even more moonwells, the one for settlement and few more in Darnassus or Moonglade.

And if they should be highly civilised... hmm, yes and not, too. I consider them rather as similar to Amish. They were, in fact, very highly civilised, but they abandoned most of luxury that civilisation grants - becuase their civilisation was corrupted and full of sins. So they resigned this, abandoned most of their bigger cities, and have chosen living in modest huts made of wood and stone, sometimes even as houses of still living trees. Some of them even were sleeping under the sky. So, they are technically "savage" (or "primal" or "wild" maybe would be better word), but in different way than for example taurens or orcs living in tribal society (well, orcs no longer of course, they are civilised now, but I mean mostly origin of orcs on Draenor where their societies had tribal systems), because Night Elven have their "primordiality" because of their choice - choice to avoid luxury and pride of their ascedants, because that pride led world to Sundering.

So I think they're both civilided and primal. Maybe I'm wrong, this is just what I'm interpret following the informations known from Warcraft 3, RPG manuals, early WoW and WoTA books. But I can be wrong.

I don't think you're wrong, you got the jist of it, but it's not amish like (who view civilization or tech as evil merely because it brings what they view as an un-necessary complication to life), rather the night elves actually ascend in function and ideals as the wake up call of the sundering helps them to see what is really valuable in life. No longer need for urban cities and empire conquering campaigns, so why bother rebuilding the ruined cities?

Of much greater urgency, and their responsibility, which they own up to rather than neglect (another admirable trait of theirs) is first the fabric of the world needs to be repaired, the taint of the demons wiped off the surface of the planet, all need to be on high alert status for the return of the demons, - the root they choose is via prevention, no magic used = no demons attracted so that means guarding the well of eternity from every other sentient being and preventing the discovery of magic. Which is why any one approaching Ashenvale was shot down, you were now too close to that huge secret atop Mount Hyjal and access strictly forbidden. This is nothing like the "I just want a simple life, have kids, a nice family, nicer things etc" No, they were seduced my the arcane, paid a terrible price and visited on a world they wanted to see perfected, the most destructive force it had ever seen. No, if they must spend an eternity making amends, whatever the price, they will pay. Lay aside personal ambition, lay aside desire for luxuries and nice things for now work needs be done. Guardians of the world now alongside the dragons they work with performing the same function.

so, whiles the men delve into the emerald dream centuries at a time, guiding the evolution of the world with the green dragonflight in order to identify all the corruption, and restore what was corrupted to it's original version, on all sorts of levels, those that are awake all the women and the non-druid men and druid men on waking duty, guard, watching for all sorts of threats. On one such example we see the entire order of the Talon with the Children of Cenarius based on Stonetalon mountain, from there they are actively suppressing arcane magic usage on the whole continent, not only that they are cloaking the entire continent in a natural mist so that no one can discover it. The women form patrols and govern what little needs to be governed, always on the move, always watching, guarding. They are the instruments in ending two major wars that we know off, War of the Satyrs and the Sands. but it's more their NON-interaction or seclusion that just negates the need for cities.

Night elves are no longer about crafting beautiful items or making life easier and more convenient for themselvs, prospering or expanding. all the things that would motivate return to urban centres, including trade with other species and it's not because they view those things as evil/bad only the use of magic because it holds such danger, they don't even view magical energy as bad, afterall it is the soruce of life, and Elune presides in the well, how can it be bad, it is out of obligation, and guilt, taking responsibility for what their people did to cause sundering and focused on fixing and preventing opening Azeroths to such threats that motivates this lifestyle. Do you see them interacting with tauren , trolls and other natives? or would need to? - no they interact with Ancients and Dragons, beings of immense powers, - and as equals - (even though they aren't quite) but it shows the respect such ancients and dragonflights have for them, they don't work with any other mortal group now. YOur life is a constant vigilance, no time for anger, jealousy or such un-enlightened foolish behaviour.


They are extremely well honed well oiled, and very sharp, only strengthening over time. the drawbacks is they become rigid and too set in their ways. They are also immortal, they don't feel cold/heat like we do, meaning they feel it, but it doesn't break their body so soon. Link to Nordrassil makes them highly resistant to arcane magic and fel magic necessary for fighting demons and satyrs. an doff course their dexterity and strength are well honed, phenomenal strength in the males to add to their dexterity - i mean those night elf males are hulks mostly.

As such, when they start interacting with other races again post 3rd war, no longer do they need the endless vigil and patrol, the work with the dragons is not exclusive, many more ancients perished in the legion's return and were only restored very recently. Time to go back to cities because there is a need now, Now they are forced to deal with other races, they need to once more take ownership of a land mass, rather than previously where they were above that, Guardians that belonged nowhere and everywhere, the only reason Ashenvale wasn't occupied was not because it was night elf lands, they had shed that concept/need it was irrelevant to the role they were playing - they guarded that land because it is at the forests edge, the point at which they deemed you were getting too close to Hyjal and the secret it held, also the Forest marked the progress of the restoration of a lot that had been destroyed by the sundering, the idea is that work would be taken throughout kalimdor, and so the area was protected both for the secret it held and for the life and new life restored that needed protection.

Not so any more, with Orcs in kalimdor, huge armies, refugees from the scourge, and now no longer immortal, night elves must start REPRODUCING en-mass again to continue to survive, which means GROWING in number again, they would need supplies, food, items, trade, cities. So they simply start building again. many who were alive before the sundering are alive today, they built a whole new temple and a whole new city. So they have made it clear all the regions formely lost to them that they had strongholds, are now their lands, but like any invading army, which the orcs are, they regard any land you cannot hold as up for grabs, so they are not respecting night elf sovereignty. Nigth elves see themselves needing those lands to rebuild and secure a new future and will shepherd that place, orcs are not respecting that. Wanting resources at an alarming rate all the millenia work of restoration they've laboured hard to cultiavte , enhance and grow, being chopped down, countless lives of wisps, ancient forest creatures, some of which are snetinet but the orcs regard as mere beasts or just ghosts and since orc ghosts have no home, how can forest spirits have a home - they're not flesh and blood, they don't need shelter and a warm fire - so orcs don't see what night elves do, they don't see why night elves need all that land given they are so few, they don't see being a much younger race the effort and cost, and centuries of the lives it took to grow a lot of that stuff back the night elves took. and so they head straight for it

what i was a bit sad not to see was more marble structures. I liked that there were wood structures, but I felt that they could have built some more marble stuff like you see in the ruins and in places like Vashj'r

[Traveler Voltin]

would have been better to give the horde the savages night elves wcIII and give the alliance the current lawful holy blood elves

So want WoW to have faction imbalance?

[Deleted]

Just a few issues with your reasoning, apologies in advanced for the heavily snipped quotes, not trying to take you out of context/misrepresent:

...Gilneas' betrayal and whiles they are in the alliance...

Different Alliance. Plus it wasn't Alterac-level-betrayal, they backed out of an alliance in favour of isolationism.

...The forsaken should be downright despised by the Tauren...

The forsaken are downright despised/distrusted by almost everyone within and without the horde, and the feeling is mutual. The forsaken are tolerated because they bring a powerful Horde presence to the Eastern Kingdoms to help face off against the alliance (which is, in turn, to much of a force there for the Forsaken to face alone).

...Blood elves should still be full of hate for the Orcs and Trolls...

Why? Quel'thalas never had a direct conflict with the orcs; they had token affiliation with a lowly human alliance that was fighting orcs, to which they reluctantly delegated a token force of farstriders. As for the Trolls, the elves of Quel'thalas have long been, and still are, enemies of the Amani trolls. Darkspear trolls come from half a world away, look totally different, and hold no allegiance to the Amani. At most, there's cause for some racist attitudes, but the elves are a bit like that with everyone.

...even though elven defenses fell due to an elf's betrayal, and even though the controlling force behind Arthas' actions was an Orc and utlimately the Legion...

I'd say it'd be odd to style diplomatic policy around the incidental races of individual enemies, regardless of their political affiliations. Dar'khan and Ner'zhul were scourge first, traitors to their original affiliations.

...Yet, becuase of the betrayal, humans have made it clear of their distrust for those that called themselves blood elves, because they switched sides, and you just don't do that. Those that call themselves High elves have remained loyal, humans like that...

Blood elves never switched sides. Quel'thalas has always been looking out for itself. They had a token membership in the Alliance of Lordaeron. That Alliance was destroyed by the scourge. Later, a new Alliance of Stormwind (far far away) was formed, and Quel'thalas didn't join. Why would they? The only Thalassian elves that affiliate themselves with it are those that live in it's lands, enemies of the current Quel'thalassian state, traitors to their people in preference to an alliance they never belonged to, and were never invited to join.

[sam86]

Yeah, Kosak really does like Orcs, man. That's why we had an entire raid tier revolving around stripping them of their leader, followed by an expansion of us killing their cultural heroes, it must be Orc favoritism.

I honestly can't believe this shit is still being spouted. Is it really that hard to see that despite the large presence of Orcs, their depiction is anything but favorable?

I honestly wish alliance get some orc 'favorism', i'll literally sub next day and raid Stormwind daily on every single character I have with blizzard giving alliance same 'love' they give to horde

@composemail (above post)
Most what you typed is right except that current alliance is still continuation of first alliance of the 7 kingdoms, while - literally - everyone dropped and left it except IF and Azeroth (SW now), blood elves/high elves were part of alliance that betrayed them and decided to kill every single one of them, 'luckily' for high elves, after Garithos death, the alliance didn't keep their word and killed the rest of them

[Xisa]

That would be because the heart of the Warcraft story is, and always has been, about Orcs and Humans. The personality traits of Elves are not as fallible as Humans (and the traits they give Orcs are very human), and it makes them not as relatable. Hard to tell a story with characters you can't relate to as well.

[Deleted]

Most what you typed is right except that current alliance is still continuation of first alliance of the 7 kingdoms, while - literally - everyone dropped and left it except IF and Azeroth (SW now)...

The Alliance of Stormwind is a successor alliance to the Alliance of Lordaeron, yes. However, of the original members of the Alliance of Lordaeron, only Ironforge and the survivors of Gnomeregan were founding members of the Alliance of Stormwind. Stormwind wasn't a member of the first Alliance, and the member states of the first Alliance were all destroyed or neutral at the time of the formation of the second alliance. Membership in the Alliance of Lordaeron hardly implies membership in the second. That said, whether Quel'thalas was even a 'member' of the Alliance of Lordaeron is iffy; they certainly weren't compelled to provide military aid to the humans during the second war, and barely did so after the humans invoked an age-old debt to secure their assistance. It seems that Quel'thalas deemed the trifles of the human kingdoms as beneath them, but generally preferred cordial relations with their neighbours.

...blood elves/high elves were part of alliance that betrayed them and decided to kill every single one of them, 'luckily' for high elves, after Garithos death, the alliance didn't keep their word and killed the rest of them

I don't think it's really fair to pin the actions of Garithos on the Alliance of Lordaeron; at the time he committed his crimes against the newly-renamed Blood Elves, the Alliance of Lordaeron had already been vanquished. He was just a remnant operating in it's ruins, on his own accord. Either way, it certainly wouldn't follow that the Alliance of Stormwind should take responsibility or agree with his actions - they had basically no connection to the guy.

[Mace]

Just a few issues with your reasoning, apologies in advanced for the heavily snipped quotes, not trying to take you out of context/misrepresent:

no apologies necessary, i like it when people actually read what I write, and I'm happy to discuss further, clarify what i was saying it it appears the point doesn't come across well because of my poor choice of phrasing. So even if i may disagree, or argue a point, it's not in disrespect or anger, it's more in enthusiasm and interest of discovery.

Different Alliance. Plus it wasn't Alterac-level-betrayal, they backed out of an alliance in favour of isolationism.

yep, I agree, they did, and the humans of stormwind remember this. And whiles new circumstances and the terrible affliction that came upomn them demands a different response, I would expect the two not to get on anywhere near as easily and cosy as it seems to sometimes come off as, which is why I'm surprised Greymane is not with the bulk of his people in Teldrassil - but then Varian is a lot more level headed, Further I'd like to see a lot more about Greymane

The forsaken are downright despised/distrusted by almost everyone within and without the horde, and the feeling is mutual. The forsaken are tolerated because they bring a powerful Horde presence to the Eastern Kingdoms to help face off against the alliance (which is, in turn, to much of a force there for the Forsaken to face alone).

yeah you're right, maybe I should not have mentioned that because the game does show them generally despised by everyone, it's not like they can show it any more than they have - maybe what I was getting at was that we are not seeing the right interactions and reactions more in line with the races' connection to their allies in the aftermath of major events, especially the forsaken in this istance ..rather than only/always showing what happened to the orcs and trolls, you get to know or find out how the forsaken reacted to them, and how others viewed them the forsaken in the whole affair.

Why? Quel'thalas never had a direct conflict with the orcs; they had token affiliation with a lowly human alliance that was fighting orcs, to which they reluctantly delegated a token force of farstriders. As for the Trolls, the elves of Quel'thalas have long been, and still are, enemies of the Amani trolls. Darkspear trolls come from half a world away, look totally different, and hold no allegiance to the Amani. At most, there's cause for some racist attitudes, but the elves are a bit like that with everyone.

Because it fuels elven snubbishness and xenophobia, besides they're quite passionate about their lands, they are written as quite stuck up ish, enemies of the orcs because of the 2nd war. And you are right there is less logic for them to feel that way now in teh light of recent events, but if you would extend that as the logic behind a comfy/cosy relationship with the orcs, then ti's even more preposterous that intelligent people like them will hold prejudices against humans who committed far less grevious offences.

So the issue here actually is the reasons highlighted for the blood elves hating the humans don't make sense, if you can hate the humans for that you should hate x10 the orcs for what they have done. The emphasis should have been on the manipulation of Kael'thas who orchestrated their race joining the horde, rather than anythign else, because he despised the alliance because of his treatment under Garithos (that is understanble) and the blood elves couldn't make outland on their own without help. What this means is that the blood elves' hatred of the humans shouldn't be that great, because it doesn't make sense that such clever beings would hate humans more than orcs right? Therefore, there should be little love, and little tolerance for being around orcs and it should show in quest language. Unless you are building the blood elves into a nobler people, in which case you need to show that they are choosing to be merciful and be supportive despite the past sins. but it is more inline that they would not be happy where they are, and only there because they have to be. They don't love the horde. They don't like the alliance either. Rather maybe the night elves should be more the reason for the blood elves hatred of the allinace rather than the humans.

As for the trolls, you are right, the blood elves should clearly see that it is a different grou pof people, and it makes sense, that wise person would not transfer the same hatreds to a different group. But tha'ts not how a stuck up racist or xenophobe behaves. The guy who hates the black american, because he is black and a black american thug mugged him or shot at him, also hates all black people whether they're from the West Indies, Europe, Africa or South America, cause that's how their mind works. Elves had along beef with ALL trolls, sure the High elves most recent trouble was with the Armani, but they've had a troll feud that goes back to when the Elves conquered the trolls under Azshara or her predecessor(s). They have much longer memories, having not as many generations past, their would be a deeper hatred.

and again sure, the blood elves could be the bigger person, again showing a more nobler, altruistic spirit, but they also have to show that to us happening, and it clashes with their stuck up, xenophobic nature - unless you lay it out right.. afterall you can be arrogant but fair and reasonable, it would actually make the blood elves a bit more likeable without changing them into virtuous saints. Still you can understand why most would expect the two groups not to get along at all. Not to mention would the darkspear trolls be hot on ANY elf? That's an intersting question, they ahven't really showed what the Darkspear trolls feel, so far they've behaved NOTHING like your typical troll. They're honourable, loyal, helpful - not vile, spiteful and cruel which is the description given of the trolls.. so which are they blizzard? They need to show what their chracter is. you can have done all the nice things the darkspear have done and still be quite a quallesome, quick to hex, rather spiteful, having a cruel streak in you too, but actually on bigger issues choosing the honourable thing.. that is a possiblity, bu you'll have to show it. and i see nothing cruel/vindictive/evil /mean spirited/quallsome in any of the darkspear trolls' behaviour.

By rights Trolls hate everyone else, and the darkspear have made an excpetion with the orcs, befireinding them after Thrall saved them. But should such blanket love extend to the Tauren? and the forsaken? and Elves of all people? I don't think it should. I would have Trolls playing nasty tricks with a really cruel twist on tauren , show more sadistic aspects to them, remind you wht the trolls are as much as you show how excpetional the darkspears are to the rest, otherwise, where is the trolls cultural identity?

I'd say it'd be odd to style diplomatic policy around the incidental races of individual enemies, regardless of their political affiliations. Dar'khan and Ner'zhul were scourge first, traitors to their original affiliations.

as was Arthas, so why blame the humans for Arthas'? they suffered a lot more because of that betrayal

Blood elves never switched sides. Quel'thalas has always been looking out for itself. They had a token membership in the Alliance of Lordaeron. That Alliance was destroyed by the scourge. Later, a new Alliance of Stormwind (far far away) was formed, and Quel'thalas didn't join. Why would they? The only Thalassian elves that affiliate themselves with it are those that live in it's lands, enemies of the current Quel'thalassian state, traitors to their people in preference to an alliance they never belonged to, and were never invited to join.

Blood elves were with the alliance weren't they? I'm pretty sure, the blood elf campaign in TFT has them with the alliance as partners, in a similar way the dwarves are partners, it ahs always been that way till recently, Dwarves/gnomes/Elves were never part of the alliance, they were allies of the alliance that joined up for the wars right? The alliance was named such because it was an alliance of h uman nations, that both the Elves and the Kirin'tor worked very hard to manipulate them into staying together enough to impose the Orcish invasion from the dark portal.. as several sources elaborate.

likewise against the scourge you find Quel'thalas and the blood elves mainly because of the prince once more fighitng alongside the alliance as allies. The human nations are deciamted because of the scourge an donly stormwind remains, gilneas locked up, a new allinace forms between races. humans, Dwarves, High Elves, Gnomes and shortly after, Night elves after the 3rd war.. Because during the 3rd war, the orcs and humans are on the same side.

But the blood elves don't take part in that war, only the High elves reperesnt the highborne, those that escaped Eastern Kingdoms with Jaina, so the issue of the friendliness of the blood elves with the orcs is not improved by affairs there.

So I can understand why blizzard writes that the humans feel the blood elves as turn coats cos whiles they were not in the alliance during the war, they were allied with the humans, and had done so against the orcs, the humans ofc will feel betrayed by their choice to join the orcish horde, although the blood elves will not see it so. The high elves would.

[ravenmoon]

That would be because the heart of the Warcraft story is, and always has been, about Orcs and Humans. The personality traits of Elves are not as fallible as Humans (and the traits they give Orcs are very human), and it makes them not as relatable. Hard to tell a story with characters you can't relate to as well.

That's debatable, because in WC3, it had clearly evolved into a scene much bigger than just humans vs orcs, with 2 new MAJOR players , and now being 4 point struggle. It is clear to everyone that it is game mechaincs not lore that brings us down to 2 factions again for wow, I do wish they would have made more effort to make the 4 faction thing work.

Then i think as wow expansions just keep adding so many races, and it becomes impossible to always adjust every race's behaviour to every other race, at least not feasible in their minds (even though it quite is), they just went back to the roots of human vs orcs.. but the fans are being very clear on this, they like it when it's not just humans and orcs. and most feel going back to the 4 faction state of WC3 or at least a 3rd faction would be very healthy.

[Deleted]

no apologies necessary, i like it when people actually read what I write, and I'm happy to discuss further, clarify what i was saying it it appears the point doesn't come across well because of my poor choice of phrasing. So even if i may disagree, or argue a point, it's not in disrespect or anger, it's more in enthusiasm and interest of discovery.

I enjoy it very much too; I can get a bit flip about it, but that's very much part of the fun, and not a sign of actual irritation or disdain.

[QUOTE=Mace;32569847]yep, I agree, they did, and the humans of stormwind remember this. And whiles new circumstances and the terrible affliction that came upomn them demands a different response, I would expect the two not to get on anywhere near as easily and cosy as it seems to sometimes come off as, which is why I'm surprised Greymane is not with the bulk of his people in Teldrassil - but then Varian is a lot more level headed, Further I'd like to see a lot more about Greymane

The humans of Stormwind weren't in the alliance that Gilneas backed out of, though. That said, there are plenty of refugees from original Alliance nations that have regrouped under the banner of Stormwind, and Stormwind humans very much see themselves as the successors to Lordaeron, so I can see you point. Just don't think it would necessarily be as common or strong an opinion.

I do agree, though, that there ought to be more conflict/distrust. The Gilnean humans themselves seemed to have a harder time accepting the Worgen than did those of Stormwind. Another valid question they might ask is, why should Worgen even have an equal seat at the table, it's not like they're bringing anything to it - they lost their nation. Every other member of the alliance has land, and an economy with which they can contribute - the worgen are just refugees, a burden. Why should they get a say in anything? Do the refugees from the other fallen human nations get a say?

On the other side, Worgen might feel that the Alliance isn't doing enough to reclaim and rebuild their home, to push hard and punish the Forsaken. I can see the Worgen clashing with the more pacifistic nations of the Alliance, like Gnomeregan, and the Exodar. Doubly so with the Gnomes, as they too want the Alliance to dedicate resources to recapturing and rebuilding their home- a cause that competes with Gilneas, has been waiting longer, but offers much less strategic reward.

yeah you're right, maybe I should not have mentioned that because the game does show them generally despised by everyone, it's not like they can show it any more than they have - maybe what I was getting at was that we are not seeing the right interactions and reactions more in line with the races' connection to their allies in the aftermath of major events, especially the forsaken in this istance ..rather than only/always showing what happened to the orcs and trolls, you get to know or find out how the forsaken reacted to them, and how others viewed them the forsaken in the whole affair.

Agreed, Blizz could really do a lot more to underline contemporary attitudes. Everyone, especially the Tauren, seem decidedly non-chalant about their fundamentally malignant, ticking time-bomb of an ally.

Because it fuels elven snubbishness and xenophobia, besides they're quite passionate about their lands, they are written as quite stuck up ish, enemies of the orcs because of the 2nd war. And you are right there is less logic for them to feel that way now in teh light of recent events, but if you would extend that as the logic behind a comfy/cosy relationship with the orcs, then ti's even more preposterous that intelligent people like them will hold prejudices against humans who committed far less grevious offences.

I'd agree, and posit that the Blood Elves don't feel so passionately against the humans either. Or any of the lesser races. Blood Elves see themselves as superior to everyone, and are looking out for numero uno as is convenient. At the moment that means allying with undead and savages. The former king actually allied himself with Illidan, the Naga, ashtongue broken, then the legion itself. He wasn't even crazy till that last part. My point is, the elves of Quel'thalas have a long history of flexibility and capriciousness when it comes to alliances. They barely lifted a finger to help the humans when they needed it most in the second war. Theron was actually considering switching factions due to displeasure with Garrosh's rule. The elves aren't to be trusted, they're in it 100% for themselves.

...Rather maybe the night elves should be more the reason for the blood elves hatred of the allinace rather than the humans.

I think the Night Elves have a bigger problem with the Blood Elves (and their arcane addiction) than the other way around. I'd postulate that the Blood Elves look down on the Night Elves as pathetic, magic fearing luddites which they were very fortunate to have left behind before forging their glorious and superior civilisation. I'd go further and say that I don't think the Blood Elves really hate the alliance. The fire and passion with which they fight, I'd say, comes more from their embarassment at having been toppled as the premiere civilisation in all Azeroth. Before the scourge came and messed their shit up, they were hands-down miles ahead of everyone, living in an arcane utopia.

...sure the High elves most recent trouble was with the Armani...

I'd guess that the Elves would be quite fond of Armani, if they knew of it! :P

...That's an intersting question, they ahven't really showed what the Darkspear trolls feel, so far they've behaved NOTHING like your typical troll. They're honourable, loyal, helpful - not vile, spiteful and cruel which is the description given of the trolls.. so which are they blizzard?

By rights Trolls hate everyone else, and the darkspear have made an excpetion with the orcs, befireinding them after Thrall saved them. But should such blanket love extend to the Tauren? and the forsaken? and Elves of all people? I don't think it should. I would have Trolls playing nasty tricks with a really cruel twist on tauren , show more sadistic aspects to them, remind you wht the trolls are as much as you show how excpetional the darkspears are to the rest, otherwise, where is the trolls cultural identity?

Super point, here. Darkspear are one of the most wasted opportunities in the Horde. They broad concept is strong- dark, cannibalistic, voodoo practitioners with even more sinister and fickle Loa influencing them. In practice we get comic sidekick rastafarian ganga-orcs. If the Forsaken make everyone worry in terms of loyalty, the Darkspear should scare people with their tactics. "Whoa, dude, whoa. Can you *not* flay and eat our fallen enemies? It's creeping everyone else the fuck out. Also, why have you painted yourself head-to-toe in blood? Is that a necklace of ears? WTF?!"

as was Arthas, so why blame the humans for Arthas'? they suffered a lot more because of that betrayal

I don't think it makes sense to blame the humans of Stormwind for the actions of Arthas. Even the humans of Lordaeron; it's not like they were behind him, he betrayed them too.

Blood elves were with the alliance weren't they? I'm pretty sure, the blood elf campaign in TFT has them with the alliance as partners, in a similar way the dwarves are partners, it ahs always been that way till recently, Dwarves/gnomes/Elves were never part of the alliance, they were allies of the alliance that joined up for the wars right? The alliance was named such because it was an alliance of h uman nations, that both the Elves and the Kirin'tor worked very hard to manipulate them into staying together enough to impose the Orcish invasion from the dark portal.. as several sources elaborate.

In TFT, the Blood Elves were working with some survivors of the destroyed Alliance of Lordaeron, which they were adjacent to/token allies with. The subsequent Alliance of Stormwind, they were never a part of.

likewise against the scourge you find Quel'thalas and the blood elves mainly because of the prince once more fighitng alongside the alliance as allies. The human nations are deciamted because of the scourge an donly stormwind remains, gilneas locked up, a new allinace forms between races. humans, Dwarves, High Elves, Gnomes and shortly after, Night elves after the 3rd war.. Because during the 3rd war, the orcs and humans are on the same side.

High Elves aren't formal members of the Alliance, they're a very small contingent of Blood Elf traitors that call themselves 'High Elves' and aid the enemy of their homeland.

So I can understand why blizzard writes that the humans feel the blood elves as turn coats cos whiles they were not in the alliance during the war, they were allied with the humans, and had done so against the orcs, the humans ofc will feel betrayed by their choice to join the orcish horde, although the blood elves will not see it so. The high elves would.

The Blood Elves once enjoyed lukewarm relations with an neighbouring human kingdom. This doesn't reasonably mean that Stormwind should feel entitled to their alliegance, by virtue of being human too (despite never being allied with Quel'thalas before, and being on the far side of the continent).

[Combatbutler]

The humans of Stormwind weren't in the alliance that Gilneas backed out of, though. That said, there are plenty of refugees from original Alliance nations that have regrouped under the banner of Stormwind, and Stormwind humans very much see themselves as the successors to Lordaeron, so I can see you point. Just don't think it would necessarily be as common or strong an opinion.

Almost all of stormwinds surviving population found refuge in Lordaeron for a time and they fought in the Alliance, Varian was raised alongside Arthas, you can't really argue that stormwind wasn't part of the Alliance, heck the supreme commander of their army was from Stormwind.

Agreed, Blizz could really do a lot more to underline contemporary attitudes. Everyone, especially the Tauren, seem decidedly non-chalant about their fundamentally malignant, ticking time-bomb of an ally.

They added some animosity, there are tauren out there who despise dwarves.

I'd agree, and posit that the Blood Elves don't feel so passionately against the humans either. Or any of the lesser races. Blood Elves see themselves as superior to everyone, and are looking out for numero uno as is convenient. At the moment that means allying with undead and savages. The former king actually allied himself with Illidan, the Naga, ashtongue broken, then the legion itself. He wasn't even crazy till that last part. My point is, the elves of Quel'thalas have a long history of flexibility and capriciousness when it comes to alliances. They barely lifted a finger to help the humans when they needed it most in the second war. Theron was actually considering switching factions due to displeasure with Garrosh's rule. The elves aren't to be trusted, they're in it 100% for themselves.

The blood elves changed quite a bit since the sacking of Quel'thalas, they are far more involved into the affairs of the world, while they were extremely isolationists in the past and on the last part Theron did not immediately tried to jump ship at the first sign of trouble, he only considered leaving after it became clear Garrosh shaped up to be another Garithos.

In TFT, the Blood Elves were working with some survivors of the destroyed Alliance of Lordaeron, which they were adjacent to/token allies with. The subsequent Alliance of Stormwind, they were never a part of.

The Alliance never ceased to exist, only its leadership shifted, Garithos was recognized as the highest official member of Lordaerons government and as such received support from the Alliance, it is the reason why he had dwarven troops.

High Elves aren't formal members of the Alliance, they're a very small contingent of Blood Elf traitors that call themselves 'High Elves' and aid the enemy of their homeland.

High elves are formal members of the Alliance, they might be traitors to their people, it doesn't change the fact that most of them joined the Alliance.

The Blood Elves once enjoyed lukewarm relations with an neighbouring human kingdom. This doesn't reasonably mean that Stormwind should feel entitled to their alliegance, by virtue of being human too (despite never being allied with Quel'thalas before, and being on the far side of the continent).

Quel'thalas only ever had one human kingdom, which they considered a true ally and that was Dalaran, this alliance lasted for nearly 2.000 years.

[Rhlor]

Nah. It'd be far better for the game to have launched with a third faction heavily driven by elven affairs. Morally ambigious, savage and gritty - combining all the best elements of the original portrayal of blood elves and night elves. You know, the stuff that drew in the original fans of both races rather than those who fawn over them based on their current awkward portrayal.

With that said, Blizzard are very unlikely to change anything. Their storytelling is arguably becoming worse rather than better and many people are caught in the trap of holding on in case something does improve.

my idea for a third faction is night elves, blood elves, tauren and draenei

[Mace]

Composemail a very well put together response on many points and issues, I find myself nearly grieved at the sheer waste of opportunity in the whole affair for giving a more compelling, intricate and substantial representation of what is obviously a very engaging universe, but desperately in need of a higher calibre of effort and more extensive work. I lament with other players in their irritation at the rather sub-par presentation of what started of as quite good work and clearly suffering from lack of due diligence. Yes, you can focus on mainly orcs and humans for now if doing the larger tapestry is too much work for creative development, altho i don't see how that is any more work than those designing huge zones , animations and models or fine tuning the complex game systems we have.

you can at least make more of an effort to bring out the nature of the races you had given them originally. I find myself agreeing with Ravenmoon that CD is missing leadership from the one who actually has the right vision for the project, Mr Metzen, he should be a lot more involved in all those minute details, so CD properly potratys everyone else correctly. Do em all justice .. we fell in love with the original context of the races and we love the developments usually, just disappointed by the lack of fiesse, lower fidelity you get. There is so little story altho a lot of quests, it's hard to see why the character of groups like Trolls, night elves, blood elves are not really coming out for their uniqiue distinct flavours we all like them for.


Agreeing superly with most of what you say, let me point out.

High Elves aren't formal members of the Alliance, they're a very small contingent of Blood Elf traitors that call themselves 'High Elves' and aid the enemy of their homeland.

countered by

High elves are formal members of the Alliance, they might be traitors to their people, it doesn't change the fact that most of them joined the Alliance.

I'm with combatbutler here, High elves are definitely officially part of the alliance now, they may not have been back in the other campaigns, only allying with them two fight off the orc invasions of WC2, or the scourge . But the alliance became like a nation in the survivors that landed on Theramore, and for a brief while, it was Eastern Kingdoms that was completley lost, and the remnant of the past civilization surviving the Legion invasion, started afresh.

In a sense, this was a new alliance, but it was still made up of all the races that allied previously with the older alliance. Lorderaon human survivors, led by the Kul'tiras princes Jaina Proudmore, included High elven surviovrs, dwarves and gnomes. What I was meaning to say was where the allinace was once exclusively referring to a pact of human nations, it now is a pact between races.

And stormwind was part of the old alliance, they were the refugees then, just like the Gilneans are now, their nobility, including their young king, grew up with Arthas after the first destruciton of stormwind, the Lorderaon led alliance was Commanded by a Stormwind General, not King Terenas nor his Son, so although a nation without a home, sort of EXACTLY like the high elves are now in Dalaran and the Gilneans are now in Darnassans, Stormwind had a promiennt place at the table. If I recall correctly.

it's quite fuzzy though, how it suddenly is a major power again in WoW.. but i think tha'ts cos blizzard changed waht they were going to do, initially we were all going to start in Kalimdor, and Eastern Kingdoms was going to be the higher levelling zone. at that point, goblins and high elves could easily have been playable races, they just lost out, intially, Northrend and Outland were meant to also be part of launch, but the project ran greatly over time, i think part of the reason is when they decided they'd have everyone have a seprate starting zone, so they moved humans back to eastern kingdom, made Elwynn a starter zone, same with Dun Morogh, maybe it was at that time they decided the Forsaken would be a starting race rather than an expansion race later on.

Who knows what would have happened if they had time, i wonder if they'd have made stranglethorn vale the troll starting zone, but didn't simply cos they ran out of time, so just left them in orgrimmar with the orcs. I wonder.

The Blood Elves once enjoyed lukewarm relations with an neighbouring human kingdom. This doesn't reasonably mean that Stormwind should feel entitled to their alliegance, by virtue of being human too (despite never being allied with Quel'thalas before, and being on the far side of the continent).

So true, and it's beautifully in character that stormwind feels that it is owed the loyalty of Quel'thalas, that is very human of them, and actually is kinda true, but technically not necessarily so, an elf may argue that was not the term of agreement, the human will say it was implied and feel betrayed.. different cultures, different races.

I like your summary of the blood elves, it really typifies how htey were introduced, and very much in character with the spirit of the quel'dorei. love how you put it here.

I don't think the Blood Elves really hate the alliance. The fire and passion with which they fight, I'd say, comes more from their embarassment at having been toppled as the premiere civilisation in all Azeroth. Before the scourge came and messed their shit up, they were hands-down miles ahead of everyone, living in an arcane utopia.

yeah, that i 100% agree with.
and this

Super point, here. Darkspear are one of the most wasted opportunities in the Horde. They broad concept is strong- dark, cannibalistic, voodoo practitioners with even more sinister and fickle Loa influencing them. In practice we get comic sidekick rastafarian ganga-orcs. If the Forsaken make everyone worry in terms of loyalty, the Darkspear should scare people with their tactics. "Whoa, dude, whoa. Can you *not* flay and eat our fallen enemies? It's creeping everyone else the fuck out. Also, why have you painted yourself head-to-toe in blood? Is that a necklace of ears? WTF?!"

yep.. spot on, you should be seeing stuff like that and in many respects, troll lore has been neglected, or not shown up properly either for failure of things like that which fit more the opening narrative description and the race actualization they were aiming for originally. SUre you can argue they've changed a bit, they are the only group of trolls that are not canabalistic any more, becaus Thrall forbade it, an dthey complied, but you should be seeing a lot of things like that, wet hungry looks or disappointed looks when perfectly good meat is just lef there, that meat i'm referring to is afallen soldier or enemy soldier.

etc, so under utilized. There seems to be the nasty habit of reducing races to just sidekicks.. this is exactly what the night elves have become. Granted, the dwarves and high elves were originally that when they were introduced in WC2, but the night elves were not when they enter the scene of WC3, and now i'm like..wtf is this.. there is no way a leader like Tyrande of a people like the Night elves -- how you presented them , would be so foolish or so easily out maneouvred.. they should come off a lot smarter than that, and really hard to get the on up on. At least..not like THAT --> points to Scenario with Varian and Tyrande.