Alternative History and Speculative Evolution

[Reeve]

Yeah it's like, you can have stuff like elephant size no problem, but those giant giraffe elephant dinosaurs with the long necks and names that begin with the letter "B" are just too big for what we have to work with in the air nowadays apparently.

Sauropods?

[zealo]

Sauropods?

Yup, this thing is one of those, believed to have been as heavy as 60 tons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnoughtus

[Iphie]

Brachiosaurs aren't technically real dinosaurs anymore (long story, look it up). However, the family you are looking for is sauropods.

That's new to me, mind pointing me in the right direction? I knew that they're odd due to the leg length configuration: long at the front, short at the back, but I didn't know they went the way of Pluto in classification.

[Reeve]

Yup, this thing is one of those, believed to have been as heavy as 60 tons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnoughtus

I always liked Diplodocus (Which a lot of people pronounce di-PLAHD-uh-cuhs, but I learned as DIP-loh-DOH-cuhs, turns out either pronunciation is OK). It was the first Sauropod I was introduced to, and I love the long whip-like quality of the tail.

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Oh, sorry, turns out I mistook brachiosaurus for brontosaurus.

But yeah, the brontosaurus never existed.

It won't let me post any links or videos, so I can't, but I advise you just Google "brontosaurus is not real".

Ah, but what about the BRAWNDOsaurus?

[Iphie]

Oh, sorry, turns out I mistook brachiosaurus for brontosaurus.

But yeah, the brontosaurus never existed.

It won't let me post any links or videos, so I can't, but I advise you just Google "brontosaurus is not real".

Ah, yes, the brontosaurus not existing I was quite aware of, iirc it was just another description of the apatosaurus coming about due to the 'saurus wars' in the 19th century in the US.

[Reeve]

Ah, yes, the brontosaurus not existing I was quite aware of, iirc it was just another description of the apatosaurus coming about due to the 'saurus wars' in the 19th century in the US.

I kind of wish a scientist would discover a new sauropod and name it Brontosaurus just to shut people up about it not existing.

[Kujako]

Speaking of which.... anyone know when we can expect more episodes of Amazons rendition of Man in the High Castle?

[Iphie]

I kind of wish a scientist would discover a new sauropod and name it Brontosaurus just to shut people up about it not existing.

As such it existed in the literature, but as I said it was a case of naming a species twice. As far as finding a new sauropod and naming it Brontosaurus, that would be fun indeed.

[Risale]

There are some great books about alternative history and some of those are a must read.

The man in the high castle (Philip K. Dick): germany and japan win WW2, US is split down the middle between them.
For want of a nail (Robert Sobel): American revolution fails.
Fatherland (Robert Harris): Germany wins WW2
The Two Georges (Harry Turtledove): King George and George Washington come to a deal and there is no American Revolution, actual story is 200 years after this event.

Comis that fit the bill and that I liked are:
Watchmen (Alan Moore)
Ministry of Space (Warren Ellis)
Superman: Red Son (Mark Millar)
Pax Romana (Jonathan Hickman)

[GennGreymane]

Whole premise of code geass (an anime)

america loses the revolution, and england loses against nepolean and the royal family moves to north america

[Grimbold21]

As a fan of history, one of the biggest "what if"s is: What if Carthage had won?

Or... what if Alexander the great made it back?

[GennGreymane]

As a fan of history, one of the biggest "what if"s is: What if Carthage had won?

Or... what if Alexander the great made it back?

I would say If Carthage won, its hard to say. They certainly would have changed things up in Europe, that's for sure and likely would have had their own "Byzantium" eventually in Africa or the mid east rather than what we had in Europe and Turkey. Maybe Christianity would not have spread as much since it needed an emperor to make it the official religion.

As for Alexander I think it would have turned out the same. He never really set up anything for his conquests aftermath and seemingly never gave it all that much thought.

[ro9ue]

This is precisely why I liked Wolfenstein so much.

I'd like to see someone explore if Tesla got the funding over Edison.

[Grimbold21]

I would say If Carthage won, its hard to say. They certainly would have changed things up in Europe, that's for sure and likely would have had their own "Byzantium" eventually in Africa or the mid east rather than what we had in Europe and Turkey. Maybe Christianity would not have spread as much since it needed an emperor to make it the official religion.

As for Alexander I think it would have turned out the same. He never really set up anything for his conquests aftermath and seemingly never gave it all that much thought.

You're applying an imperialist character to Carthage. While it was an empire, from what is known, it wasn't on the scale of early rome. The only thing Carthage had that could resemble to a sizable foreign holding was their territories in Iberia.

What do you mean he didnt set up anything? He created provinces and new cities, gave away governships to former generals and veterans. My question was posed more in the sense of what would've happened in the western theatre as a confrontation with Rome was most likely unavoidable.

[Noomz]

One thing that interests me is the idea of Speculative Evolution and Alternative History. I mean what if the British never colonized Australia? Or what if another culture like the Chinese or Arabs discovered Australia? Given the chance, what would dinosaurs looked like if they had never went extinct? Or could fantasy creatures like dragons or dwarves evolve (surprisingly, dwarves came close to evolving in the real world)? Possibly one could picture what Earth's life would look like a million years after a human extinction.


Your thoughts?

They could've, but they would look nothing like the giant dragons in fantasy. They would be a lot thinner, lithe, to be able to fly. And they would never get particularly big. In other words, no gigantic, firespewing trucks flying in the air.
Biology has limits on this planet, based on the physics of our planet.

[Reeve]

I would say If Carthage won, its hard to say. They certainly would have changed things up in Europe, that's for sure and likely would have had their own "Byzantium" eventually in Africa or the mid east rather than what we had in Europe and Turkey. Maybe Christianity would not have spread as much since it needed an emperor to make it the official religion.

As for Alexander I think it would have turned out the same. He never really set up anything for his conquests aftermath and seemingly never gave it all that much thought.

Carthage eventually would have been beaten by another power if it hadn't been Rome. They didn't have the sort of culture Rome had that would lead them down a similar path. They were a trade empire, pure and simple. They outsourced much of their military might and generalship.

But yeah, Alexander seems to have been a bit of a party boy who fancied himself a demigod, not so much an administrator. As I recall, practically the minute he got to Persepolis, he let a high end prostitute from Athens who was with his favorite general burn the city to the ground. Not exactly the work of a great administrator.

[Adam Jensen]

If we exclude the whole breathing fire deal, something that would resemble dragons as they are pictured in the west could definitely be a thing.

Dragons are believed to have originated from people seeing dinosaur bones and trying to imagine what sort of monster they belong to.

In a sense, they were real, they were the dinosaurs. Our imaginations simply added things like "breaths fire, hoards gold, sounds a bit like Benedict Cumberbatch" to embellish our myths and legends.

[Gamdwelf]

Dragons are believed to have originated from people seeing dinosaur bones and trying to imagine what sort of monster they belong to.

In a sense, they were real, they were the dinosaurs. Our imaginations simply added things like "breaths fire, hoards gold, sounds a bit like Benedict Cumberbatch" to embellish our myths and legends.

there are other theories that Since both the east, west, and Early American cultures all had similar dragon entities, That it comes from a combination of many early human predators; large serpents, Large cat fangs/claws, wings from predatory birds.

[Deleted]

You're applying an imperialist character to Carthage. While it was an empire, from what is known, it wasn't on the scale of early rome. The only thing Carthage had that could resemble to a sizable foreign holding was their territories in Iberia.

well it depends on how you see it, if Hannibal would have won, it likely would have kept Carthage alive for a few generations, which given the existence of Rome, would have propelled it to continue to assert it self (probably) and change it self to a more imperialistic nation, this trend was seen after the first punic war.

What do you mean he didnt set up anything? He created provinces and new cities, gave away governships to former generals and veterans. My question was posed more in the sense of what would've happened in the western theatre as a confrontation with Rome was most likely unavoidable.

even if he would have lived a few more decades, it is unlikely his empire would have held, see Genghis Khan.
Also, at this point in time, Rome was a fledgeling city state, it didn't even dominate the peninsula.

[Reeve]

well it depends on how you see it, if Hannibal would have won, it likely would have kept Carthage alive for a few generations, which given the existence of Rome, would have propelled it to continue to assert it self (probably) and change it self to a more imperialistic nation, this trend was seen after the first punic war.

even if he would have lived a few more decades, it is unlikely his empire would have held, see Genghis Khan.
Also, at this point in time, Rome was a fledgeling city state, it didn't even dominate the peninsula.

I'm not sure I agree Carthage would have shifted to a more imperialist culture. The leaders of Carthage had no real interest in war beyond protecting their trade interests. They basically outsourced the whole idea of war so they wouldn't have to think about it.

As for a Greek confrontation with Rome, there was one. Greece kept winning every battle, but lost the war. Rome had an exceptional capability to take a punch.