Hotfix 20 man mythic rather than BRF gear.

[Deleted]

I agree that having one size for mythic is the way to go. I can also see why 20 makes sense so at least one of each class is safe to assume.

But then, why does every normal/heroic pug i do end up with 15 people, and not 20. I mean i know you cant compare mythic to heroic, but surely if mythic is intended for 20 people, it makes sense to make the "ideal" number for heroic to be the same.

Seems to me 15 is a much more practical number to manage then 20, and i'd gladly see mythic be 15 man in the next expansion (im guessing blizzard either secretly knew that, or will pick up on it this expansion, but just was to big a jump from 25 this time around)

[Deleted]

This is just not true at all. A LOT of people liked 10 man better, and a TON of smaller, non-raiding heavy servers are majorly suffering because of it.

I'm sure there are a few, but only a few. The numbers on WoWProgress aren't really showing much difference in participation between WoD Mythic vs MoP Heroic.

There are 12370 guilds who have killed Mythic Kargath. That's around 250,000 players who seem to have adjusted to the new format if you assume all of those guilds have no more than 20 players. In reality, most 20-man guilds rotate a few players, so that number is closer to 280,000.

On the other hand, by the end of Tier 14 in MoP, 16983 guilds killed Heroic Stone Guard. The split between 10 and 25-man guilds was no more than 2:1. The number of players who killed it while current was about the same - i.e. somewhere around 250,000-280,000 players.

In conclusion, the Mythic format, and the levels of participation are looking pretty solid so far. The switch seems to have been far smoother than anyone had predicted 12 months ago - probably because guilds had a whole year of SoO in which to adapt, so most MoP guilds with Mythic aspirations were already fully established by the time Highmaul released.

There will of course always be a very small minority who couldn't cope with the switch, and there's always a natural churn of players and guilds who disband/reform at the end of an expansion for their own reasons. The main thing likely to stop players converting to the new 20-man format is their own willingness to accept change.

[L3fty]

I'm of the opinion that the problems with 20 man Mythic teams finding a reliable roster base will be ironed out in the next 6 months. This was always going to be a huge transition for previous hard mode raiders of all 10/25 raid sizes.

It's also very easy for players that are seeing good Mythic progress to sit back and puff on a pipe while saying 'you should have tried harder'. I can only speak for myself when I say the guild I was officer in from TBC failed to make the transition from 10man to 20man and not through lack of effort. The opposite infact - we tried so hard to recruit quality players that in the end we imploded. If that's what we deserved then I tip my hat to all of you heroes that succeeded. Bear in mind, joining as a raider as opposed to controlling recruitment is a scenario akin to comparing a retired golf player to a fire fighter. At least that's how it felt to be trying so desperately to make the transition and falling short.

In terms of whether the transition was easier for 10 or 25 mans to make all I would say is: for 25 mans it was a case of trimming down the roster, losing perhaps some good players but keeping the absolute elite VS. 10 mans, doubling in size, finding a lot of recruits to be untested, unpredictable and all in all less experienced. Purely on an officer level, I would have taken the 25 man stance over the 10 man anyday. A few difficult convos telling people they didn't make the cut VS. constant disappointment in failed trials and a neverending recruitment drive.

Back OT: I feel that once the dust has settled and raiders get used to 20 mans it will be like 10 vs 25 preference never existed. I still have a lot of love for the 10 man environment but can imagine learning to love the 20 man environment. Guilds just need to catch up to speed and find out how to get a balanced team that is reliable. That's the holy grail right now tbh.

[Deleted]

Your opinion is quite inconsistent with the numbers shown on WoWProgress.

There are 12370 guilds who have killed Mythic Kargath. That's around 250,000 players who seem to have adjusted to the new format if you assume all of those guilds have no more than 20 players. In reality, most 20-man guilds rotate a few players, so that number is closer to 280,000.

On the other hand, by the end of Tier 14 in MoP, 16983 guilds killed Heroic Stone Guard. The split between 10 and 25-man guilds was no more than 2:1. The number of players who killed it while current was about the same - i.e. somewhere around 250,000-280,000 players.

In conclusion, the Mythic format, and the levels of participation are looking pretty solid so far. The switch seems to have been far smoother than anyone had predicted 12 months ago - probably because guilds had a whole year of SoO in which to adapt, so most MoP guilds with Mythic aspirations were already fully established by the time Highmaul released.

There will of course always be a very small minority who couldn't cope with the switch, and there's always a natural churn of players and guilds who disband/reform at the end of an expansion for their own reasons. The only thing stopping players converting to the new 20-man format is their own willingness to accept change.

Didn't a blue say that over 90% of guilds do not have people on bench regularly in a interview recently?

also wowprogress thinks your guild has killed mythic kargath if 4 people pugged it. (i think, not sure if it only requires 4).

wowprogress should add a "unique players that killed mythic kargath" button.

[Pieterman]

I read about the gear hot fix to BRF and wonder why blizzard is missing a key point that many guilds just do not manage to sustain the 20 man roster in order to do more content in mythic, allot of us also prefer 10 man raids to enjoy content yet this mythic 20 man only restriction often means it is game over after BRF clear on heroic.

worse idea ever was 20 man only content.

It's the last bit of difficult, inaccessible content. Don't spill your casualisation all over it.

[AgilityTank]

I've gotta be perfectly honest here, Dragonberry - if you've been a world top 200, server 2nd guild, and you're now struggling to progress in Mythic, it's due to your own laxity and absolutely nothing else, in my opinion.

Relatively same issue here on a high pop, popular raiding realm. We bust our ass to recruit good players so no, you are wrong here. It's not bc he is being lax. (151st US 10m last tier - haven't killed M Beastlord on our 10 hrs/week yet bc its SO hard to recruit atm)

[Liandryl]

15 man mythic would have been soooo much better....
adding 5 is not that big a deal compared to doubling the roster to 20....

They failed miserably with that 20 man mythic.

They had a good idea with 1 size for mythic but 20 is too much ...

[Deleted]

Didn't a blue say that over 90% of guilds do not have people on bench regularly in a interview recently?

They were referring specifically to guilds running normal and heroic in answer to a question on how successful the new flexible raiding formats have been. Mythic guilds can't survive without having some players in rotation, because it means losing even a single player, a player taking a holiday, or a player being unable to raid on a particular night completely screws it up for the entire guild.

Having reserves is a necessary reality for any kind of fixed-size team game (including football, rugby, etc.)

also wowprogress thinks your guild has killed mythic kargath if 4 people pugged it. (i think, not sure if it only requires 4).

I have no idea how WoWProgress calculates it, but the same would also be true of guilds who PuG'ed Heroic Stone Guard.

[Slicer299]

I read about the gear hot fix to BRF and wonder why blizzard is missing a key point that many guilds just do not manage to sustain the 20 man roster in order to do more content in mythic, allot of us also prefer 10 man raids to enjoy content yet this mythic 20 man only restriction often means it is game over after BRF clear on heroic.

worse idea ever was 20 man only content.

You've obviously never bothered to read anything Blizzard has ever said about the raid changes in 6.0.2. Long story short, the most difficult level of content can never be balanced properly for smaller raid sizes. They've tried, and failed, to get it right, and after years of their own testing, design and listening to player feedback, they settled on the 20 man raid size. Big enough so classes don't have to be completely excluded, but smaller and easier to manage than a 25 player group.

If you honestly can't' fill 20 spots, than you and your group of friends aren't Mythic level raiders. Mythic is not intended to be accessible to all players, or even a significant portion of players. It exists strictly for the hardcore crowd. Not saying that means you aren't allowed to play it, but it does mean you are not the intended audience.

The serious players who Mythic content is intended for will do things like pay for server transfers to make sure they get into the best guilds possible for content and spend 10+ hours a week working on progression. All while running lower difficulty raids just to min/max as much as possible and do things like pay hundreds of thousands of gold on BoEs and crafted items as soon as content is released so they can walk into those raids with the best gear possible.

Edit:

And as less than 5% of the guilds in the world have killed Heroic Blackhand as of right now, I doubt you're guild is one of them but yet you some how run a roaster of only 10 ppl.

[Deleted]

Just because your guild doesnt manage to sustain your roster doesnt mean "many guilds" do, thats a ridiculous way to try and make a point.

[TaurenNinja]

It's much better with 20man only, it makes it more competitive and there's less idiotic discussion about "25m is harder than 10m!!!111".

Blizzard also did everything right with this - they announced this VERY EARLY, allowing all guilds that wanted to raid mythic in WoD to have a lot of time to either recruit more to get to 20, or fusion with another guild to get to 20, or gquit and join a 20m guild.

It's unfortunate, but entirely on you if you didn't make the transition to 20m. Furthermore, nothing in life hinders you from still trying to stock up your roster. It's not like it's the end of the world if you skip 1-2 tiers of raiding because of roster issues. Take your time, get good people in there and you're fine.

Furthermore, why do you still play WoW if you can't deal with change? This game changes more than a model's clothing. Change is what keeps it alive.

That said, I don't like the BRF ilvl increase because it's not just an ilvl increase but also an indirect raid nerf, which I assume also was the main intent of it because BRF is quite juicy in terms of difficulty.

[Slykz]

I honestly liked 10/25 a lot more. Some 25 man fights were harder, and some 10 man fights were harder, in the end it balanced out and people still managed to clear raids at a decent pace.

People who get butthurt over the "25 man is harder than 10 man" crap doesn't raid because they think its fun. Personally i liked to raid with a close group of 10 people and clear content at a reasonable speed. Why in the world would i care about 25 man raiding being harder or not? Props to them clearing it on 25 man if it was harder, it has nothing to do with me.

[Deleted]

This 10 man whine must end now!!!!!!!!!

I read about the gear hot fix to BRF and wonder why blizzard is missing a key point that many guilds just do not manage to sustain the 20 man roster in order to do more content in mythic, allot of us also prefer 10 man raids to enjoy content yet this mythic 20 man only restriction often means it is game over after BRF clear on heroic.

worse idea ever was 20 man only content.

SSC, TK and Sunwell 25 man only says hi. ICC - best loot Ulduar best loot says hi.

It was possible to sustain 25 raid instances for top tier raiding, i did i mself with my guild for several years.

Learn to manage your guild and stop complaining. If you do not like to maintain tyour own guild, join a mythic raiding guild - that is - if you are good enough.

[rohendar]

My guild disbanded over 20m Mythic, couldn't get enough people together. And that on Kazzak EU, one of the heaviest Horde populated servers in the world. And we are not the only one. They should have kept it at 15. 20Man is just too big a leap for a 10m guild to get to.

[Frostweaver]

I think it's a good choice to have it at 20, a not so easy to reach rostersize for many guilds.

Many guilds don't want to admit it, but the majority of their raiders probably don't want to do mythic. They just want to do content at the level of heroic difficulty with friends most of all. And when many guilds like these try to push into mythic they're starting to see huge turn-over rates and people quitting the game or vanishing. Right now, if you want to raid mythic, you easily can. All you have to do is leave your guild and apply for a mythic guild (lots of them are recruiting), but it means you won't be raiding with friends and tbh I don't think it's a good idea to raid content at the mythic level with friends.

I also believe that mythic is a lot harder than heroic used to be in past expansions. Just look at all the world top guilds that suddenly threw in the towel in WoD while they existed since forever. Blood Legion, Inner Sanctum etc.

Here is some advice for guilds out there: "Don't try to push your raidguild into mythic, most of your raiders really don't want to do it and will leave if you try to. If you really want to raid mythic, leave your guild and join one that raids mythic without issue already."

This^

This is exactly what I think as well and I see nothing wrong in this..

[Deleted]

Take for instance basketball, the sport is meant to be played with a certain amount of players and it doesn't work out well with only half, the same applies for raiding.
It just doesn't work out well at all, Blizzard are limited in terms of design of mechanics and class design as well

[Roshar]

I read about the gear hot fix to BRF and wonder why blizzard is missing a key point that many guilds just do not manage to sustain the 20 man roster in order to do more content in mythic, allot of us also prefer 10 man raids to enjoy content yet this mythic 20 man only restriction often means it is game over after BRF clear on heroic.

worse idea ever was 20 man only content.

20 man only was the best idea ever for the health of high-end raiding. And in any case, the ilvl hotfix wasn't a raid issue but rather a reward issue that Blizzard wanted to fix.

Many just prefer 10 man

Many more prefer 20 man. See how that works?

[adibandi]

Many just prefer 10 man

you is many? 20 man is perfectly fine and 90% of guilds agree with this.

[Deleted]

I definitely enjoy 10 man raiding more than 20 man raiding. But there needs to be one raid size to truly have a "competitive" raiding difficulty.

[Slicer299]

I definitely enjoy 10 man raiding more than 20 man raiding. But there needs to be one raid size to truly have a "competitive" raiding difficulty.

You hit the nail right on the head there. Mythic, or whatever Blizzard wants to label the highest raid difficulty as, is not and has not ever been intended for the majority of players. So the OP can claim that "many prefer 10 man" all he wants. While his statement is not an accurate representation of the majority of players, it wouldn't matter even if it was because Mythic is not intended for him or anyone else that only wants to raid with the smallest raid size possible.