[Logs/Help] What is this Priest doing wrong?

[Overdispersion]

I'm not saying MB isn't viable, because with the buff in 6.1 it is, its just still not as good as Solace. And to say that MB is now leaps and bounds better is just flat out wrong. At best, they're about equal.

You're gonna PI every odd MB and at least with my normal haste levels (1071 rating) I get 12% back and 15% mana back with PI which is a bit more than Solace.

5 stack AA with solace:
3 solace (0 mana) + 1 offensive penance (2.3k)

5 stack AA with MB:
3x penance (6.9k) + one freed up global which is probably a pws for 3.8k.

So really you're spending 8.4k mana more every 30sec which in 2 min will be 33.6k = 21% of mana. Mindbender GCD Edit: 33.6-3.8=29.8 which is 18.6% of mana.

So that minus the difference in mana reg from solace vs. MB (3% every 2min) = 15.6% less mana from MB than Solace every 2min. That's worth 504 spirit. So the question then becomes whether you wanna drop 504 spirit from jewelry for secondaries or the extra pws every 30sec which will be about a 1875 hps increase (given it averages roughly 75k).

[PosPosPos]

Hah. Thats cute.

Hah. You are cute.

Solace is still better than MB unless you're stacking haste as a disc priest (which no disc priest should).

Hint: Every disc runs PI without fail, and a huge percentage of the disc priest's BiS gear has haste on it, which you obviously didn't notice.

Head, Hands, Belt, Pants, Cloak and Weapon(no, Blackhand's staff doesn't count) all have Haste. If you use the spirit ring and haste/mastery neck, those add up to another 2 slots of haste itemization.

While the mana regen of MB is better than what it was in 6.0, its still not as good as solace. Especially since you need to offensive penance to build up stacks then. For holy, its a different story and MB is very very competitive with SoL.

Nothing wrong with offensive Penance to build up stacks. Defensive Penance, while powerful, is situational and isn't always usable in every situation when your Penance comes off CD - if everyone at at full or near full health, who exactly do you want to Defensive Penance with? Or are you suggesting to do a 100% overheal Penance?

I'm not saying MB isn't viable, because with the buff in 6.1 it is, its just still not as good as Solace. And to say that MB is now leaps and bounds better is just flat out wrong. At best, they're about equal.

Unless you are actively avoiding Haste in your itemization(which means eschewing Mastery on many, many pieces), there's no way Solace can outperform Mindbender.


Some calculations with my current haste ratings:

Solace perfect mp5: 1680
Mindbender breakpoints(courtesy of and credits to Redsparowe):

haste%	#attacks	mp5
0	14	1505
5	15	1575
12.5	16	1680
20	17	1785
27.5	18	1890
35	19	1995
42.5	20	2100
50	21	2205

Ignoring lust/hero effects; without Power Infusion and with Borrowed Time up, I have sufficient haste to hit the 20% breakpoint, and with Power Infusion + BT the 42.5% breakpoint.

This means I have, on average, 1890 mp5 given 1 PI-buffed MB and 1 non-PI-buffed MB.

Compared to a perfect Solace use of 1680 mp5, that's 210 mp5 using Mindbender over Solace. Even if I do not line up MB with PI, the average mp5 with Mindbender would be 1785, which is still 105 mp5 over Solace.

How and when, with the addition of 2-4 GCDs saved every minute, is Mindbender not superior to Solace? The simple conclusion is never.

[Friflygarn]

I use mindbender, and its more mana by far. Ive surpassed the 12,5% breakpoint by far raidbuffed. If combined with PI or Lust the bender becomes a beast. Oh and its way easier to keep up perfect than solace. And you get less GCDs.

[kheath812]

ive used solace and mindbender both on cooldown in the same fights and over the same time period (6-8min) solace gives me way more mana according to skada... im haste capped (gcd). ill have to try mindbender again i guess?

[Kenyans]

Halo is far better than cascade for this fight

[Antifaithx]

I'd be more concerned about your DPS with 4 sets/BRF gear doing under 30k dps than your priest lol

[Dierdre]

Well we don't even know because he changes talents on pretty much every fight. *shrug*

That's usually a good sign. Distrust anyone who tells you X is always better by miles; be it Solace, Power Infusion, Cascade or Bacon. That's often the sign of someone who just read it somewhere (noxxic) rather than play it and experiment with it. Or the sign of someone who recognizes the unquestionable awesomeness of bacon.

To be honest if mana is an issue it's more likely to be due to poor play than to talent choice. I've had to sub as healer more frequently than I'd like to during HM/BRF, and with gear poor in spirit and very bad gameplay because I'm by no means a good healer, I've never really struggled with mana, not even while using Mindbender when solace was "insanely and ultimately superior". At most I've had to use a mana pot now and then.

He seems to be doing fine, just like the guys have pointed out he needs to watch his AA uptime and Mindbender on CD. He had 2 casts where he should've had 4, hence the OOM.

[Yossa]

Your priest is doing nothing "wrong" and seems like your "non-raiding ex-guildie" doesn't really know what he is talking about. The play is of course non-optimal, but who here can really say theirs is?

- About the log, he didn't cast PoM at all and let his 100 talent do it.
- CoW is better is some fights where you get less raid damage.
- During some downtime it's ok to cast smite for Archangel stacks - while not optimal in theory, sometimes phases where you are casting heals on gcd it's very hard to get max stacks in any other way.

This coming from a 5/10M disco player and based on my own short experience as a disc priest.

[Zlebar]

He's not using EMPOWERED archangel....

EAA+PoH on stack groups on CD


- - - Updated - - -



Hah. Thats cute.

Solace is still better than MB unless you're stacking haste as a disc priest (which no disc priest should). While the mana regen of MB is better than what it was in 6.0, its still not as good as solace. Especially since you need to offensive penance to build up stacks then. For holy, its a different story and MB is very very competitive with SoL.

I'm not saying MB isn't viable, because with the buff in 6.1 it is, its just still not as good as Solace. And to say that MB is now leaps and bounds better is just flat out wrong. At best, they're about equal.

Mindbender is better if you are using PI, which ALL disc priests should be. If you still have shards it's better by a large margin. You should probably look up some of the recent theorycrafting on this before you dismiss something that is correct.

[jason1975]

That's usually a good sign. Distrust anyone who tells you X is always better by miles; be it Solace, Power Infusion, Cascade or Bacon.

Clearly you know nothing. Bacon is always better by miles.

/thread

----

OT: OP, your disc priest isn't a world-beater, but he's pretty good. There are some key ways he could get better (as described above), but if you're looking for why you can't get past a particular boss, I don't think it's this guy.

I think you also need to understand Disc's role in this fight (look beyond the HPS). This is a fight where a lot of focused damage is going out in spikes to different groups. Disc's job is to increase the effective health for the group that's about to take a whoopin' to a level high enough so that they survive that burst, then do the same for the next group and so on. The other healers job is to top everyone back up after that. While yes, he could help out a little bit more on that (more cascade use, etc), his first priority is to make sure his job gets done. And it's looking like he is succeeding there.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Dps seems bad from certain players. Probably a bigger issue than your Disc.

[kheath812]

He's not using EMPOWERED archangel....

EAA+PoH on stack groups on CD


- - - Updated - - -



Hah. Thats cute.

Solace is still better than MB unless you're stacking haste as a disc priest (which no disc priest should). While the mana regen of MB is better than what it was in 6.0, its still not as good as solace. Especially since you need to offensive penance to build up stacks then. For holy, its a different story and MB is very very competitive with SoL.

I'm not saying MB isn't viable, because with the buff in 6.1 it is, its just still not as good as Solace. And to say that MB is now leaps and bounds better is just flat out wrong. At best, they're about equal.

um, haste is second best stat now...

[Xars]

I'm comparing the best log to my mythic butcher from a month ago: /reports/bnVw7xh8RHQNFBkj#source=29&type=healing
Looking at it, there are definitely places that I can improve on, but overall I would say it's a good parse.

He casts 2 PoH, this isn't a major problem but one of the PoH was casted without EAA. PoH without EAA is generally a big no no.

He used Penance offensively (a minimum of) 5 times to build Evangelism. He has a two set, so he really shouldn't ever be using penance offensively on butcher or casting smite.
5 smite casts hurts his HPS, he used all 5 smites to build Evangelism to 5 stacks. Smite should never be casted is a safe rule. The extra 5% for 15 seconds isn't worth the cast.
He also casted Shadow Word: Pain once at the end. A few people were already dead, so it was probably just a for shits casts.

Cascade should be used more, its still worth to keep on cooldown.
Flash Heal + EAA is casted once on the tank when it wasn't really needed, but that a non-issue.
He uses Fade twice, since he has the glyph, the 2 spots that he uses it at will only reduce the damage by about 20k per cast. So, thats a HPS lost since he could have casted PW:S. Glyph of Fade isn't really that useful for Butcher, bounding cleave will be the only spots that he takes damage.

I would also say that he has too much spirit, or rather that hes not dumping his mana enough to output the HPS you would expect.
He didn't use any mana pots for the entire fight, and he didn't need to.
He uses a int pot at the end, when it was pretty much a wipe 10 seconds before hard enrage.
He uses mindbender twice in a 4 minute fight, I would expect at least 3 times (4 times if hes on top of the cooldown).
The mana issue, or lack thereof, is probably the number one reason why he isn't putting out desirable numbers. He needs to be able to dump his mana better. Either he needs to be spamming his PW:S harder, or lose some of his spirit and opt for better stats.
If he has money, he should buy a Everburning Candle, its a ton of intellect and roughly equivalent to 200 spirit. Although, I would guess hes using the haste for his mindbender. If that is the case, he should just switch to Solace since hes still casting it for Evangelism stacks.

He isn't a bad priest by any measure. I guess the only thing that he could work on is spamming his spells harder (lol).
It's just a bunch of little things that add up. They can all be easily improved on.

[Atrianna]

For the sake of trying to follow this conversation, the logs simply say his healing toolkit should be PW:S and penance. Without digging further into the logs to compare inc damage and such, it could be bad timing on all of that (my giving him the benefit of doubt for a moment). It almost feels like all he does is pw:s spam and then reapply to the entire group once it falls. If that's the case, his gear is carrying his heals and he could use some assistance with his class. If you ever wanted to be a sniper, roll disc. Snipe heals like it's your job. He's just relying on pw:s to carry him.

As for haste for disc, I recently changed to mindbender with my 2-piece. It's amazing and I was able to lower my spirit overall because of it. We do have a small, under discussed haste cap of about 20% raid buffed that effects mindbender and mana return.

[PosPosPos]

For the sake of trying to follow this conversation, the logs simply say his healing toolkit should be PW:S and penance. Without digging further into the logs to compare inc damage and such, it could be bad timing on all of that (my giving him the benefit of doubt for a moment). It almost feels like all he does is pw:s spam and then reapply to the entire group once it falls. If that's the case, his gear is carrying his heals and he could use some assistance with his class. If you ever wanted to be a sniper, roll disc. Snipe heals like it's your job. He's just relying on pw:s to carry him.

Which begs the question: who the fuck plays disc and doesn't blanket the raid with PW:S for raid damage?

This response is so rolleye-worthy on many levels.

[Overdispersion]

You're gonna PI every odd MB and at least with my normal haste levels (1071 rating) I get 12% back and 15% mana back with PI which is a bit more than Solace.

5 stack AA with solace:
3 solace (0 mana) + 1 offensive penance (2.3k)

5 stack AA with MB:
3x penance (6.9k) + one freed up global which is probably a pws for 3.8k.

So really you're spending 8.4k mana more every 30sec which in 2 min will be 33.6k = 21% of mana. Mindbender GCD Edit: 33.6-3.8=29.8 which is 18.6% of mana.

So that minus the difference in mana reg from solace vs. MB (3% every 2min) = 15.6% less mana from MB than Solace every 2min. That's worth 504 spirit. So the question then becomes whether you wanna drop 504 spirit from jewelry for secondaries or the extra pws every 30sec which will be about a 1875 hps increase (given it averages roughly 75k).

Just to build on this a bit. When adding 504 multistrike my PWS HPET goes up from 69750 to 72683. Just something to consider since that's higher than the hps gain from Solace->MB from the PW:S globals.

[Atrianna]

Which begs the question: who the fuck plays disc and doesn't blanket the raid with PW:S for raid damage?

This response is so rolleye-worthy on many levels.

No, I am not saying that at all but appreciate your eye roll. He should be casting a lot of PW:S right? But where is the rest of his toolkit? Nowhere. What is he doing with weakened soul up? Nothing?

[kheath812]

No, I am not saying that at all but appreciate your eye roll. He should be casting a lot of PW:S right? But where is the rest of his toolkit? Nowhere. What is he doing with weakened soul up? Nothing?

you know raids consist of more than 1 person right? theres always someone to shield that doesnt have weakened soul... its by far the most hps thing you can do in any given situation.....

[Atrianna]

you know raids consist of more than 1 person right? theres always someone to shield that doesnt have weakened soul... its by far the most hps thing you can do in any given situation.....

lol that is always the case. Look, I really do get the argument for a healer to have a one button rotation and top heals, I don't think anyone is really arguing that fact here. I think the problem is it doesn't = great. I work all the time to be better and use my kit.

[PosPosPos]

lol that is always the case. Look, I really do get the argument for a healer to have a one button rotation and top heals, I don't think anyone is really arguing that fact here. I think the problem is it doesn't = great. I work all the time to be better and use my kit.

Hi. Reality check - PW:S is the most effective and efficient non-cd filler we have. Wake the fuck up.

No, I am not saying that at all but appreciate your eye roll. He should be casting a lot of PW:S right? But where is the rest of his toolkit? Nowhere. What is he doing with weakened soul up? Nothing?

Huh, let's see, I must be imagining the 18 casts of PoH, 8 casts of Cascade, 19 casts of Flash Heal and 173 ticks of defensive Penance across 9 wipes. Brb, gonna have my eyes/brain checked.