Prot 4PC VS Non Set Pieces

[Piano]

Well my guild downed mythic gruul and kagraz last night and I used the offset pieces, so the 4pc was not necessary. Here is a link to logs on gruul if anyone is interested.

[Deleted]

Wow. You have taken your third inferno debuff and forget to use your shield block. And you survived it.
It was a good decision that you used Last stand just before the third strike^^

[Piano]

Oh yeah, there were some serious oshi- moments in that fight. Overall though it was a nearly perfect pull.

[ablock87]

Horrible comparison since ravager gives you overall the same/beter mitigation and a lot more DPS. (As well as beeing able to use it as a cooldown when you're taking a lot/big physical hits).

Ravager doesn't mitigate the important sources of damage that warriors have trouble surviving (Big bursty damage that can't be parried).

[Valech]

Well, you have quoted me.

You have to make decisions on „Who takes it first“. You want to give it to classes/roles who will have the greatest raid performance benefits. The fact that we discuss about the prot 4p shows that it is either clearly bad or decent. So, don't aim for it. Take it when progression is over and you will have something for transmogrification

In fights like Gruul or oregorger you want to take gladiator's resolve and (external) DefCDs. Sure, to block a little more on the inferno strike is nice, but far away from super strong. You will easily survive it.

To see some math would be nice, as always.
For me there is to litte reason to do it.

Your reasoning is flawed. I agree, that other classes benefit from their 4p more and should therefore receive it first. But then the disagreeing begins:
Discussion a topic means nothing else, then that there is something unclear about said topic. In this case, the bonus doesn´t have to bad, maybe the benefit is simply not as obvious as in other setboni cases.
The argument, that you can survive things (in your example the Inferno Slice) without it is not sound. You can kill every boss undergeared, without pots, bufffood and flasks and yet every even slightly progress oriented guild deems those things obligatory. Or are those things for you also just "nice to have"? I mean, 50 Str from a rune surely is "far from super strong".
I cannot provide math but, unless flawed, my napkin thoughts dictate me to go for the 4p. 8% less damage (25% if critically blocked!) outweigh better stats on any given item by far. What do you get from better itemized Items? 2%? 3%? It is true, that this damage reduction only applies to the times your shieldblock is up. But on most (not all) bosses, your shieldblock uptime while actually tanking is nigh 100%. Taunts happen often and even if tanking without shiledblock for short periods of time, block still remains a chance.

[Deleted]

It was just an answer to Odeanathus argument of super strongness.
The 4p is nice to have for the inferno strike. But to be super strong it should give you a big increase to survival. But it doesn't because you survive it easily without.

Bufffood, Pots, Flasks, Runes, Entchants, Gems, etc. gives you more stats without sacrificing anything.

The discussion about the 2p and 4p prot bonus in not new. We have discussed it a lot before BRF opened when making our BiS-Lists. I don't say the 4p prot is bad. It's solid. But other classes/roles benefits more. And from my very own point of view I don't want to have multistrike and haste on my gear for a little more blockable damage reduce. I'm feeling strong against those attacks without the 4p. But again, this is my personal preference. Feel free to do it another way.

[Deleted]

Is it worth to use glyph of Recklessness if i have 4pc of set bonus? :|

[Valech]

Is it worth to use glyph of Recklessness if i have 4pc of set bonus? :|

This is about 4p for prot^^

[booi]

i haven't had time to setup something more general, but this is for my current gear setup (694 i think)





This is with 100% uptime on the boss, the gap between 4 set and no set would get quite a bit wider as you approach 50% tanking uptime.

Set bonuses may be more beneficial to push to your dps raiders, but I really doubt that going off pieces is better than worse itemization on four set.

[Deleted]

Thanks for simulating this.

Sure, you take less blockable damage which is a lot in SimCraft.
But warriors are already strong against that damage.
More damage reduction is always nice.
But I would still give it to dps raiders first.
(and then progression is over and you can do what you want).

Could you please link the simulation report?
Because my results are much different with only using 2p.

SimCraft 610-07
T17M TMI-Standardboss
50.000 Iterations

36.377 dtps
117.4 TMI

[Deleted]

But I would still give it to dps raiders first.
(and then progression is over and you can do what you want).

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldnt give it to DPS first? The discussion is if the 4p is worth getting and equiping or not. Weither you should gear tanks first or not as far as I know every progressing guild puts DPS before anything else.

Thanks for simming it Booi, I do agree with Muuku that generally attacks that are already blocked aren't our biggest threat (I don't agree on his Gruul argument because eventhough you can easily survive it without 4p it's still the biggest stike of damage you'll take in that fight so why not mitigate it as much as possible?).

I'm not a simcraft guru but I gues it might be hard to factor in an amount of aoe/magical damage which isn't blockable, then again I doubt it'll make up for the 5K DTPS difference you simmed.

[Deleted]

Well, the amounts of tokens are limited.
Typically you will not get your 4p during progression when you are on the last spot.
And you are, if your bonus is not good enough.
Sure, you can take the heroic version, but then you have the next discussion (15 ilvl difference).

So, the discussion is not only if the 4p is worth getting and equipped or not.
It's also about if you are getting a greater benefit compared to others.
But I unterstand your point of view.
I'm also interessted in therorycrafting how good the 4p is.

When fighting Gruul I used all my strong DefCDs while tanking him during high stacks of overwhelming blows.
Never had any issues with inferno strikes.
Not before the Gruul nerf, not before the itemlvl push.
So maybe because of this I don't feel the threat.

[Erlaya]

If you are losing 75% of your health on the last Inferno strike without the 4 piece, you can stand by the statement of not having any issues with it. However there are other things to consider beyond you just surviving. 75% of your health is 350-450k health that needs to be topped off? This means a healer needs to devote an extra heal or two into you before going back to other targets. However given the 4pc reduces the damage by 8% or 25% more that means you are only taking 69% of your health or 56% respectively. The second is such a huge difference it's not even close to comparing.

Just because you "can" survive something without it, doesn't mean it's not better to wear it. So in response to the original question of if 4pc is worth using over better itemized higher item level items, based on everything posted in the thread the answer is yes always stick with the 4pc if you have it, as the damage mitigation will smooth out your damage intake a lot more than the off items would. The bonus is actually skewed even more in favor of using it once you take into account the 2pc as it basically builds on the 2pc (as do most of the set bonuses this tier), providing a slightly better benefit overall (This is shown in Booi's sims).

I would also highly doubt that a Warrior tank can have zero issues taking multiple inferno strikes without some sort of cool down (I guess unless we are talking about heroic?). Maybe you don't have issues because your healers are dumping CDs into you which they wouldn't have to do if you had the 4pc and used your own CDs for it. Which means these CDs can be used in other places of touch and go damage.

[Deleted]

Just because you "can" survive something without it, doesn't mean it's not better to wear it.

Honestly there is a page's worth of pointless posts in this thread because of arguments that have nothing to do with the original question; which was whether or not it is worth sticking to or using the 4pc instead of off pieces with slightly higher stats and ilvl. This question does not care, so to speak, in what order tier pieces should be distributed (which is up to the individual guild and its players) or if the content is playable without it.

It was a simple question of which choice is better to maximize the tank's performance, which I do believe was answered pretty well.

[Erlaya]

It was a simple question of which choice is better to maximize the tank's performance, which I do believe was answered pretty well.

Yah it was, I just got a bit annoyed at the above poster who is essentially causing confusion by not keeping the topic on track.

[Deleted]

If you are losing 75% of your health on the last Inferno strike without the 4 piece, you can stand by the statement of not having any issues with it. However there are other things to consider beyond you just surviving. 75% of your health is 350-450k health that needs to be topped off? This means a healer needs to devote an extra heal or two into you before going back to other targets. However given the 4pc reduces the damage by 8% or 25% more that means you are only taking 69% of your health or 56% respectively. The second is such a huge difference it's not even close to comparing.

I would also highly doubt that a Warrior tank can have zero issues taking multiple inferno strikes without some sort of cool down (I guess unless we are talking about heroic?). Maybe you don't have issues because your healers are dumping CDs into you which they wouldn't have to do if you had the 4pc and used your own CDs for it. Which means these CDs can be used in other places of touch and go damage.

Ok, I understand you want to discuss about tank performance only.

But just because you were doing some math.
You are not only getting the Infernostrike, you are also getting the Infernoslice which is not blockable.

And yes, we are using DefCDs for every inferno on both tanks.
Together with gladiator's resolve, shieldblock and a high shieldbarrier there is zero threat.

[Deleted]

You're viewing it wrong.
During shield block you will always block and raising that amount by 5% is huge. Its not about passive block chance.
Not to mention the synergy with our 2set.

Icy veins have never been a good source of information.

Icy veins tend to be bovineexcrement. (they reccomended spirit and haste for discipline priests, for instance... yes, the two worst stats at that moment)