Blackhand help and suggestions

[Deleted]

It's not weird at all. The most skilled players will generally play the best spec and have optimized gear for that spec. If a 99th+ percentile player with 685 gear was playing sub, it would do about 1k more than if they were playing combat with equivalent gear. This difference rises to 2.7k in ilvl 700 gear, though that is only a difference of about 5.5%.

Also, 80th percentile is shit if you care about ranking. Though if you're not trying to get a high rank, you won't outside of patchwerk fights like Hans/Franz and Gruul.

So you do concede that the best players are playing subtlety for Blackhand, but you're still trying to argue that people should be playing combat and get sent to the balcony? You can't base the decision only on Patchwerk simulations, and 80th percentile rankings are fine, if you go to 99th percentile you will have too high variance due to RNG and tiny sample size.

Do you even know how rogues are gearing? They are enchanting/gemming multistrike since it's the best stat for Subtlety and the best cleaving stat for Combat. The best single target stat for Combat is haste, which is the worst stat for Subtlety. Most rogues don't have a gear set optimized for Combat single target.

Long story short, don't send sub rogues to the balcony; don't make your sub rogues go combat for a fight with vastly more single target than cleave.

[OrcsRLame]

So you do concede that the best players are playing subtlety for Blackhand, but you're still trying to argue that people should be playing combat and get sent to the balcony? You can't base the decision only on Patchwerk simulations, and 80th percentile rankings are fine, if you go to 99th percentile you will have too high variance due to RNG and tiny sample size.

Do you even know how end-game rogues are gearing? They are enchanting/gemming multistrike since it's the best stat for Subtlety and the best cleaving stat for Combat. The best single target stat for Combat is haste, which is the worst stat for Subtlety. Most rogues don't have a gear set optimized for Combat single target.

Long story short, don't send sub rogues to the balcony; don't make your sub rogues go combat for a fight with vastly more single target than cleave.

Concede? That was never a point I tried to argue in the first place.

My argument is that if you have a shit comp for Blackhand, combat rogues can handle the balcony better than most other melee classes, and having your rogues spec combat for that fight is likely a benefit to your raid over having other melee with weaker defensives, mobility and burst AoE try to do the balconies and struggling to get everything killed in time.

If you have a not shit comp for Blackhand, that is, stacked to fuck with hunters and enough boomkins to murder everything on the balcony, with 1 feral for support, then by all means, play sub. The best rogues in the world are in that exact situation, because the best players naturally gravitate toward the top guilds, and the top guilds class stack like motherfuckers for hard fights like Blackhand.

Also, variance does not account for a 19-20 percentile drop on a fight. Assuming no mechanical fuck ups, your rank will vary by around 5% tops from week to week.

Dps rankings are a terrible way to judge what is and isn't a good class/spec on Blackhand though, as there's a lot more to getting the fight down than just doing big dick damage. Dps rankings are way more relevant on a fight like Gruul.

[tylerch11]

Concede? That was never a point I tried to argue in the first place.

My argument is that if you have a shit comp for Blackhand, combat rogues can handle the balcony better than most other melee classes, and having your rogues spec combat for that fight is likely a benefit to your raid over having other melee with weaker defensives, mobility and burst AoE try to do the balconies and struggling to get everything killed in time.

If you have a not shit comp for Blackhand, that is, stacked to fuck with hunters and enough boomkins to murder everything on the balcony, with 1 feral for support, then by all means, play sub. The best rogues in the world are in that exact situation, because the best players naturally gravitate toward the top guilds, and the top guilds class stack like motherfuckers for hard fights like Blackhand.

Also, variance does not account for a 19-20 percentile drop on a fight. Assuming no mechanical fuck ups, your rank will vary by around 5% tops from week to week.

Dps rankings are a terrible way to judge what is and isn't a good class/spec on Blackhand though, as there's a lot more to getting the fight down than just doing big dick damage. Dps rankings are way more relevant on a fight like Gruul.

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong about Rogues. Rogues are the worst of any melee to go up on balcony because unlike pretty much every other class Rogues have to trade resources vital to their rotation for their survivability. At 20 Energy per Feint, and Recuperate being a finisher that costs Combo Points, the survivability people constantly mention about Rogues also hinders our output during the balcony phase. With the constant movement during BH as a melee, Combat's already low ST damage suffers even more because we have no bleeds and/or ticking poisons on the boss during in-between times. Even Mut is arguably a better option for BH. It is FAR more important to have someone with an extra 4-5k~ DPS (at a minimum) to push BH into other phases than to have one of the lowest ST damage specializations in the entire game there just to clear out balcony -- which again -- is not as good as you think for it.

[chuachua]

Laurcous, do you really have no clue? The reason why other melee are better for balcony duty is their self heals and dots. Combat has no dots at all and as someone else already mentioned that survivability comes at a great dps loss for rogues.

[OrcsRLame]

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong about Rogues. Rogues are the worst of any melee to go up on balcony because unlike pretty much every other class Rogues have to trade resources vital to their rotation for their survivability. At 20 Energy per Feint, and Recuperate being a finisher that costs Combo Points, the survivability people constantly mention about Rogues also hinders our output during the balcony phase. With the constant movement during BH as a melee, Combat's already low ST damage suffers even more because we have no bleeds and/or ticking poisons on the boss during in-between times. Even Mut is arguably a better option for BH. It is FAR more important to have someone with an extra 4-5k~ DPS (at a minimum) to push BH into other phases than to have one of the lowest ST damage specializations in the entire game there just to clear out balcony -- which again -- is not as good as you think for it.

Straw man argument. I never once mentioned using feint or recuperate for the balcony phase. I said you use feint for the smash.

Define "one of the lowest ST damage specializations in the entire game" because that statement taken at face value is objectively wrong. http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

If combat is one of the lowest single target specs in the game, should warlocks all go kill themselves? Combat is a little on the low end, but many specs are below them or higher but still ridiculously close/ Even sub is only ~1400 dps above combat.

It's also funny that you're trying to tell me how fast I think combat rogues do the balcony. Combat rogues don't really have ramp up time for their AoE, (I have a level 100 rogue, I know how combat plays) and most of the time there's 4+ targets available on the balcony so... I think they do it about this fast. http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor..._T17H_AOE.html

I'm being a little facetious there, as I'm getting mildly annoyed that people keep making stuff up and then acting like I said that.

- - - Updated - - -

Laurcous, do you really have no clue? The reason why other melee are better for balcony duty is their self heals and dots. Combat has no dots at all and as someone else already mentioned that survivability comes at a great dps loss for rogues.

Saying that I have no clue when you're making shit up and not providing anything resembling a logical argument is hilarious, frustrating and confusing all at the same time. I have never once said to keep recuperate and feint up during the balcony phase. I said to use feint for the smash, do you know what that is? Shattering Smash is a spell that Blackhand casts. It creates a circle under the tank that has threat on him at the time of casting. Standing in this circle causes you to get punted about 40 yards, up to the balcony if you position properly. The problem, is that this smash hits like a semi truck being driven by the Hulk. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but it still hurts. It's AoE physical damage, so feint reduces it by 50%. DKs can reduce that by 20% every 3 minutes. Ret paladins can reduce it by 20% with Divine Protection, if they glyph it, which makes it weaker against magic damage, which means it hurts your phase 3.

I'd also love to hear what dots ret paladins have, go ahead, I'm all ears.... What's that? Ret paladins don't have dots except for seal of truth which takes 10000 years to stack and hits like a wet noodle anyway? You're better off using the AoE seal on AoE? No way! Unholy DK is certainly better, but I seriously question if one application of NP is enough to actually get anything done on the balcony. I don't know enough about warriors to comment on them at this time.

The hilarious thing with all these accusations of me being clueless and the source of all the world's problems is that I'm not even saying combat is good for the balconies. I'm saying they're less bad than other specs that are also bad for the balconies. I have repeatedly said that if you have dps druids, of either spec, send them. All these rogue players keep coming at me though like I've spoken some heresy for daring to suggest that rogues may not be the worst choice for a bitch job on an end boss.

Note this post contained heavy amounts of sarcasm, get offended at your own risk.

[Styxxa]

Came here for Blackhand advice. Learned how to not play a Rogue.

[chuachua]

The bitch jobs for rogues are kiting demos and soaking smashes in p3. End of.

[OrcsRLame]

The bitch jobs for rogues are kiting demos and soaking smashes in p3. End of.

You sure showed me! That was a masterful logical argument. Next time I feel outmatched in a battle of wits I'll be sure to say End of.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong about Rogues. Rogues are the worst of any melee to go up on balcony

Now as a Fury main i can tell you that's a lie

[Selenti]

Now as a Fury main i can tell you that's a lie

It's pretty funny seeing rogues run a pity party for themselves.

On topic, at the end of the day every melee is going to try and convince you they're the worst for the balcony because it ruins your total DPS. Says very little for whether or not they're actually bad at it.

If I had to list specs, I'd probably go DK > Ret > Everyone Else, but it's really not that important. If people take too much damage and there is no healing going up, sure, send a rogue, they'll take less damage going up and still do alright damage.

The only meaningful thing you can say about class balance on balcony groups outside of the obvious choices (send boomkins) is that mobility is a factor. If a spec doesn't have enough mobility to go from balcony back to boss before the next smash, then you may want to consider another spec, or multiple balcony groups.

Still this is all highly theoretical and should be solved in raid by a raid leader, I still believe 99.9% of what you hear from melee about balcony is them trying to convince raid leaders to keep them down so they can parse higher, regardless of actual merits.

[Deleted]

It's pretty funny seeing rogues run a pity party for themselves.

On topic, at the end of the day every melee is going to try and convince you they're the worst for the balcony because it ruins your total DPS. Says very little for whether or not they're actually bad at it.

If I had to list specs, I'd probably go DK > Ret > Everyone Else, but it's really not that important. If people take too much damage and there is no healing going up, sure, send a rogue, they'll take less damage going up and still do alright damage.

The only meaningful thing you can say about class balance on balcony groups outside of the obvious choices (send boomkins) is that mobility is a factor. If a spec doesn't have enough mobility to go from balcony back to boss before the next smash, then you may want to consider another spec, or multiple balcony groups.

Still this is all highly theoretical and should be solved in raid by a raid leader, I still believe 99.9% of what you hear from melee about balcony is them trying to convince raid leaders to keep them down so they can parse higher, regardless of actual merits.

Well you're right about the whole thing about having to convince my raidleader but it worked and i get to stay down at all times, we are lucky tho since we have 2 boomkins that clear it all.

[Deleted]

Define "one of the lowest ST damage specializations in the entire game" because that statement taken at face value is objectively wrong. http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html
.

Blackhand is many things, including a single target fight, but it most certainly is not a Patchwerk style fight.

[Deleted]

Guys, stay on topic?

About the tip to go onto the balcony as SV hunter: There is no random element where the groups spawn so you can just be there and disengage onto the right balcony section, nuke them down and be on your merry way.

[OrcsRLame]

Blackhand is many things, including a single target fight, but it most certainly is not a Patchwerk style fight.

I never claimed that it was a Patchwerk fight. Merely debunking the claims that sub is 5k+ more single target dps than combat and that combat is one of the lowest single target specs in the game.

[Adramelch]

If you're playing a SV hunter you can clear one wave all by yourself.

Before he does the floor smash ask your healers to top you up (or better, ask your disc to put a shield on you), deterrence the floor smash (no damage taken) and disengage on to the platform whilst falling down (no fall damage taken). Place a binding shot +ice trap where the ads spawn and blow them up with barrage and multi shot.

It needs a bit of luck because ads might not spawn on the side where you land but every little bit helps if you're progressing.

See this video for reference : https://youtu.be/6-htDzlg_qU?t=1m50s

No it doesn't. The adds always spawn on the same side, namely the right side if you're standing at the entrance.

[Raicky]

No it doesn't. The adds always spawn on the same side, namely the right side if you're standing at the entrance.

I did not know that. I'm on siege engine duty now so I avoid going to the balcony. But the more you know!

[Adramelch]

I did not know that. I'm on siege engine duty now so I avoid going to the balcony. But the more you know!

Yeah I've been soloing the first balcony on my boomkin. If you stand on the left side during transition, the "vacuum" effect created pulls you towards the middle and then towards the right side balcony so it's pretty easy to land there with either a Leap ability (Disengage, Demonic Leap) or a slowfall ability (Slowfall, Levitate, Boomkin Flap) which means that pretty much every ranged class can do it. Boomkins are especially strong since Nature's Vigil+Starfall/DoTs trivialises the damage you receive, while quickly cleaving the mobs down. Spamming Rejuvs while you're in the air means you can avoid using defensives (Barkskin) to minimise the transition damage.

[Deleted]

Send an enha shaman up if you have one, they can solo sides, then you get way more dps on the boss.

[Selenti]

Blackhand is many things, including a single target fight, but it most certainly is not a Patchwerk style fight.

It actually gets pretty close to Patchwerk DPS if you are not given balcony assignment and are competent enough to DPS while moving.

Of course not technical Patchwerk in Simcraft, but light movement category? Sure.

The worst part is P3 smash, but again that only applies to some people and depends on strategy. (For example, not many people do it, but you could go 3 rogues + tank on P3 smashes and then just have other melee stay out of smashes. Or just don't bring other melee.)