[Resto] DoC related question

[Grumit]

I usually take SotF/ToL and NV. However, A druid i've started raiding with uses DoC+Treants and his performance on fights is not only consistently high but he also seems to have more mana left at the end of a fight. I also understand he uses a one button macro for his rotations like 70% of the time.

I was wondering what stats this sort of build requires? At the moment I can only assume crit, haste and multistrike (mastery would be lesser if wrath casting is so heavy right?) and if what he is doing is actually viable?

[EmpathG]

Do you think healing with a one button macro is viable?

[Grumit]

Well, he seems to be performing really well, his over healing is not excessive.

[Teramelle]

Performing really well on meters, perhaps. This would mostly be due to the smart-heal nature of those two talents... I just don't know if his healing would actually be enough to maintain a raid group. High on healing meters doesn't necessarily mean all that healing has went to where it's most needed. But, who knows? I've never tried that talent combination myself... I never figured it to be viable for high-end raiding.

[theburned]

Treants is really weak atm.

DoC is in a good spot, and stat priority would be haste > MS > mastery/crit > versa

spirit being weaker, not entierly useless, but throughput trinkets would be preferred, everburning being a good choice, but I am quite sure HC trinkets would be better.

the blackhand and darmac being BiS, while oregorger trinket being a perfectly viable option and also works better with a boomie specc.

I wouldn't suggest this unless you have a spot as a 5th healer, going boomie on a lot of fights, also only being there for safety for other bosses.


one button macros? For a healer, that is just as bad as you can get at this game. This leads me to believe that you and the other healers are quite bad, if you consider him to do good. And well this was confirmed by checking out some logs.
Try to improve on your healing, being able to play DoC druid well, should be considered too though.

[Deleted]

Treants is really weak atm.

DoC is in a good spot, and stat priority would be haste > MS > mastery/crit > versa

spirit being weaker, not entierly useless, but throughput trinkets would be preferred, everburning being a good choice, but I am quite sure HC trinkets would be better.

the blackhand and darmac being BiS, while oregorger trinket being a perfectly viable option and also works better with a boomie specc.

I wouldn't suggest this unless you have a spot as a 5th healer, going boomie on a lot of fights, also only being there for safety for other bosses.


one button macros? For a healer, that is just as bad as you can get at this game. This leads me to believe that you and the other healers are quite bad, if you consider him to do good. And well this was confirmed by checking out some logs.
Try to improve on your healing, being able to play DoC druid well, should be considered too though.

You cant play DoC druid well, because eventho DoC is not horrible atm its worse in every single way when healing is accually needed compared to HotW. For sure now you can run dubble spirit trinkets that have over 800 spirit. < which is really stupid.

[Phaelon]

You cant play DoC druid well, because eventho DoC is not horrible atm its worse in every single way when healing is accually needed compared to HotW. For sure now you can run dubble spirit trinkets that have over 800 spirit. < which is really stupid.

ya know, I've been seeing this stated here and there and I just dont get it. DoC works very well for when healing is needed most because you have the mana to heal at any pace. Wrath spam fills with splash healing during low times, though people say this is wasted healing, its still healing someone else doesnt have to do and its during slow damage times. When the damage ramps up you go back to a normal rotation, whatever it may be, and dont worry about running low on mana.

DoC is a very effective way of healing, especially when used correctly. People concern themselves too much with controlling where the heal goes...look at it this way, the smart heal from DoC is random but its one less place another healer has to worry about healing. No wasted heals this way. Working as a team, this is pretty good.

[Deleted]

ya know, I've been seeing this stated here and there and I just dont get it. DoC works very well for when healing is needed most because you have the mana to heal at any pace. Wrath spam fills with splash healing during low times, though people say this is wasted healing, its still healing someone else doesnt have to do and its during slow damage times. When the damage ramps up you go back to a normal rotation, whatever it may be, and dont worry about running low on mana.

DoC is a very effective way of healing, especially when used correctly. People concern themselves too much with controlling where the heal goes...look at it this way, the smart heal from DoC is random but its one less place another healer has to worry about healing. No wasted heals this way. Working as a team, this is pretty good.

Give me a good example in a fight in BRF where you would consider DoC above HoTW (Dont bring up the mana argument because with the 800 spirit trinkets there are no mana issues on any fight besides Blast Furnance, and during blast furnance DoC will not be a viable way of healing in p2 or p3)

[Hildrande]

Dont bring up the mana argument because with the 800 spirit trinkets there are no mana issues

Believe it or not, there are in fact resto druids out there without Mythic Warforged Autoclave. Some don't even have the regular heroic version. I know, it's hard, but that's just how it is.

There's plenty of high performance DoC logs around.
For comparison: NV logs/rankings, HotW logs/rankings.

[Phaelon]

Give me a good example in a fight in BRF where you would consider DoC above HoTW (Dont bring up the mana argument because with the 800 spirit trinkets there are no mana issues on any fight besides Blast Furnance, and during blast furnance DoC will not be a viable way of healing in p2 or p3)

Mana aside, Flamebender is a fine example of a fight that DoC can be used on. Wrath spam with LB and double rejuv on the tank and hasted WGs on cooldown. From start to finish you can run this on Flamebender.

heck, it can be used effectively on Kromog as well. Splash healing during the hands is helpful and spamming wrath after stone breath only helps bring players back up as well.

DoC is available the entire fight and HotW once for 45 seconds on most fights, 2 on a couple of fights that go longer than 6 minutes but normally you wouldnt need it right off the bat for healing anyway.

[axxey]

Dont run double spirit trinkets and you have higher throughput and DoC lets you save mana for throughput when you need it. HoTW is eggs in one basket which i dont like, DoC is available entire fight. Maidens is a great example, what do you do the entire fight while waiting for end phase to arrive, not much if you're not DoC.

Treants I quite like, it's just unfortunate they're on the one tier that actually has much more useful other things.

[nightfalls]

Dont run double spirit trinkets and you have higher throughput and DoC lets you save mana for throughput when you need it. HoTW is eggs in one basket which i dont like, DoC is available entire fight. Maidens is a great example, what do you do the entire fight while waiting for end phase to arrive, not much if you're not DoC.

And most druids, after the realization hits them that the entire fight before end phase just does not matter will swap to HotW for the fight.

It's far superior to run double spirit trinkets + HotW than to run no spirit trinkets + DoC. To be honest during initial progress I used DoC on a few fights, but find myself switching to HotW almost every one of them after the ilvl + spirit trinket buff (I have 1/2 of the buffed trinkets).

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Mana aside, Flamebender is a fine example of a fight that DoC can be used on. Wrath spam with LB and double rejuv on the tank and hasted WGs on cooldown. From start to finish you can run this on Flamebender.

heck, it can be used effectively on Kromog as well. Splash healing during the hands is helpful and spamming wrath after stone breath only helps bring players back up as well.

HotW is probably better than DoC on both fights, especially Kromog, where it's almost a universal choice.

[Deleted]

Mana aside, Flamebender is a fine example of a fight that DoC can be used on. Wrath spam with LB and double rejuv on the tank and hasted WGs on cooldown. From start to finish you can run this on Flamebender.

heck, it can be used effectively on Kromog as well. Splash healing during the hands is helpful and spamming wrath after stone breath only helps bring players back up as well.

DoC is available the entire fight and HotW once for 45 seconds on most fights, 2 on a couple of fights that go longer than 6 minutes but normally you wouldnt need it right off the bat for healing anyway.

But you can dps during Flamebender for the first 45 seconds, because there is litterally no dmg going out there, and you'll be doing more dmg than you would with DoC.

For Kromog during the hands you would want to be accually healing because if a breath comes right after people are gonna have issues.

For after the stone breath you'd either want to just rejuv/wild growth or let other healers heal them up. and even if DoC is not bad for it doesnt mean its a benefit, because you can do almost the same without DoC. HotW how ever will always be useful and an ACCUALL impact on your dmg or healing.

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Dont run double spirit trinkets and you have higher throughput and DoC lets you save mana for throughput when you need it. HoTW is eggs in one basket which i dont like, DoC is available entire fight. Maidens is a great example, what do you do the entire fight while waiting for end phase to arrive, not much if you're not DoC.

Treants I quite like, it's just unfortunate they're on the one tier that actually has much more useful other things.

During maidens you can still dps the entire fight without DoC, You'll be doing 20% less dmg but thats not accually a lot seeing that because you use HotW on pull You'll accually end on higher dmg on the boss even if you heal for the entire last phase with HoTW.

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Believe it or not, there are in fact resto druids out there without Mythic Warforged Autoclave. Some don't even have the regular heroic version. I know, it's hard, but that's just how it is.

There's plenty of high performance DoC logs around.
For comparison: NV logs/rankings, HotW logs/rankings.

I dont think ANY healer should care about HPS, I already said that NV will probably give you more HEALING than HotW but its all about the target that you're healing not about the HPS you're doing. The NV will heal everyone for like 1k a tick, which is basicly nothing. It will add up because it ticks a lot on a lot of different players but it will never be usefull healing. With HotW you can accually target the player you want more healing on. So if you use a regrowth on someone that is dying, having 35% extra healing on your regrowth will be really nice compared to NV where you'd would instead of healing that target for 35% more you'd heal someone else for like 5k.


Everyone with what ever spec can get high healer parses, but that often just shows that people take a lot of unavoidable dmg or they are cheese healing.

Its the same way you cant look at dps rankings for the majority of the fights in BRF because most of them are just gained by cheesing. (Darmac, Thogar, Orgorger, Flamebender, Kromog, Blackhand) they are all bosses that looking at accuall rankings wont do anything because the top 50 ranks will be people that just cheesed a lot and didnt dps the correct targets.

Same goes with healing, to some extend you can ofc see if someone knows how to do good HPS, but often the ranks will be pointless to look at because they still managed to kill the boss with less Hps.

(For example our Mythic Blackhand kill, during the last phase we had an overall HPS of 395k while most guilds had over 430k hps. this was not because our healers sucked it was just because we killed the boss way quicker and there was less dmg taken.

[Gibban]

I love healing with DoC in dungeons and raids, it allows to filler heal as most fights have low damage phases.
This allows enough manaregen to burst heal during the hectic phases.

[Sprucelee]

Sigh... Druids using DoC on Kromog just shows how stupid this trend has become. HotW on pillars+boss or GTFO.

Same with Maidens, <20% damage, or boat damage, is all that matters, and HotW is FAR superior for both. DoC sustained damage is irrelevant, skipping the third boat and having them even is all that you care about at >20%

But... w/e, carry on DoC druids, carry on.

[Tiberria]

A lot of it depends on what your raid needs and what strat you're using. If your DPS is able to get the Kromog pillars down consistently with no issues, HoTW pillar DPS is largely irrelevant. I actually prefer Nature's Vigil on Kromog; it's up for every hands phase when your DPS tends to be overaggressive in breaking them too soon. I can't see wanting to use DoC on that fight; the healing requirement is too consistent and there is too much movement.

On Iron Maidens; it's also strat dependent. It's a perfectly viable (and arguably far easier to execute) strat to just stop DPS and wait for the third boat. If you are using that strat, and Sanguine Strikes mitigation is executed properly, there is literally 0 damage in P2 worth even Tranquing, let alone worth having HoTW for; P2 damage with this strat is no higher than P1 damage; you just need to take 4-5 healers to have the absorbs/mitigation/external CDs to execute the Sanguine Strikes part. I was using HoTW for DPS on the second boat during initial progression when we were having issues killing that boat in time. Once the ilvl bump came through, it was no longer an issue at all, so I switched back to DOC, just to actually have something to do in P1 and because both NV and HOTW were largely useless.

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I dont think ANY healer should care about HPS, I already said that NV will probably give you more HEALING than HotW but its all about the target that you're healing not about the HPS you're doing. The NV will heal everyone for like 1k a tick, which is basicly nothing. It will add up because it ticks a lot on a lot of different players but it will never be usefull healing. With HotW you can accually target the player you want more healing on. So if you use a regrowth on someone that is dying, having 35% extra healing on your regrowth will be really nice compared to NV where you'd would instead of healing that target for 35% more you'd heal someone else for like 5k.


Everyone with what ever spec can get high healer parses, but that often just shows that people take a lot of unavoidable dmg or they are cheese healing.

Saying that healers shouldn't care about HPS at all is as idiotic as saying that HPS/rankings are all that matters. It's important, just not the only thing that matters. I also disagree that NV "will never be useful healing". It can be lined up with high damage phases where you will be spamming Rejuv to add a significant amount of extra AoE throughput. It can also be used together with Incarnation for very strong results. Even though it's a fairly minor healing coodlown, it's an extra cooldown you can use for burst and supplemental healing, and that has value if it's what you need.

HoTW is extremely strong if you want/need to use it for burst DPS. However, it has a lot of limitations if you are using it for healing that can make it cumbersome/ineffective to use. Using it with Tranq was amazing on say Ko'ragh or Brackenspore progression. However, on almost every BRF fight, base Tranq tends to have 40%+ overheal as is. You rarely need a 135% Tranq, and most of that extra healing is either sniping passive healing from other healers or just adding overheal. If you want to use it as a healing cooldown outside of Tranq (or for the ~37 seconds after Tranq ends), you run into the problem that a lot of that duration is just wasted, because most burst healing phases of fights are 15-20 seconds long at most. Very few fights/mechanics line up well with a 6 minute cooldown that lasts 45 seconds. The talent would be so much stronger if it was a 2 minute CD/15 second duration instead.

[Deleted]

A lot of it depends on what your raid needs and what strat you're using. If your DPS is able to get the Kromog pillars down consistently with no issues, HoTW pillar DPS is largely irrelevant. I actually prefer Nature's Vigil on Kromog; it's up for every hands phase when your DPS tends to be overaggressive in breaking them too soon. I can't see wanting to use DoC on that fight; the healing requirement is too consistent and there is too much movement.

On Iron Maidens; it's also strat dependent. It's a perfectly viable (and arguably far easier to execute) strat to just stop DPS and wait for the third boat. If you are using that strat, and Sanguine Strikes mitigation is executed properly, there is literally 0 damage in P2 worth even Tranquing, let alone worth having HoTW for; P2 damage with this strat is no higher than P1 damage; you just need to take 4-5 healers to have the absorbs/mitigation/external CDs to execute the Sanguine Strikes part. I was using HoTW for DPS on the second boat during initial progression when we were having issues killing that boat in time. Once the ilvl bump came through, it was no longer an issue at all, so I switched back to DOC, just to actually have something to do in P1 and because both NV and HOTW were largely useless.

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Saying that healers shouldn't care about HPS at all is as idiotic as saying that HPS/rankings are all that matters. It's important, just not the only thing that matters. I also disagree that NV "will never be useful healing". It can be lined up with high damage phases where you will be spamming Rejuv to add a significant amount of extra AoE throughput. It can also be used together with Incarnation for very strong results. Even though it's a fairly minor healing coodlown, it's an extra cooldown you can use for burst and supplemental healing, and that has value if it's what you need.

HoTW is extremely strong if you want/need to use it for burst DPS. However, it has a lot of limitations if you are using it for healing that can make it cumbersome/ineffective to use. Using it with Tranq was amazing on say Ko'ragh or Brackenspore progression. However, on almost every BRF fight, base Tranq tends to have 40%+ overheal as is. You rarely need a 135% Tranq, and most of that extra healing is either sniping passive healing from other healers or just adding overheal. If you want to use it as a healing cooldown outside of Tranq (or for the ~37 seconds after Tranq ends), you run into the problem that a lot of that duration is just wasted, because most burst healing phases of fights are 15-20 seconds long at most. Very few fights/mechanics line up well with a 6 minute cooldown that lasts 45 seconds. The talent would be so much stronger if it was a 2 minute CD/15 second duration instead.

Eventho I agree with what you said at the end I disagree with the fact that DoC will ever be usefull on maidens, because wouldnt you rather just pasively heal with some rejuvs in p1 while wrathing because there is nothing else to do (You dont need DoC to wrath).

And then you still have HotW to dmg in p2. (and heal if the disc priest does for example)

Also can you give me a good example of when NV is better than Heart?

[Spoonman]

Could u link these Treans logs? or is someone else here using Treants and ranking high atm?
Curious how good the buff on it was

[Tiberria]

Eventho I agree with what you said at the end I disagree with the fact that DoC will ever be usefull on maidens, because wouldnt you rather just pasively heal with some rejuvs in p1 while wrathing because there is nothing else to do (You dont need DoC to wrath).

And then you still have HotW to dmg in p2. (and heal if the disc priest does for example)

Also can you give me a good example of when NV is better than Heart?

Sure, there's plenty of examples of why NV may be better than HoTW.

1. If you are primarily concerned about the DPS value of the talents, NV in general does about the same amount of damage over 4 uses in a 6 minute window as an HoTW use does if you spend the entire 45 seconds DPSing. NV is a little stronger for damage on fights with adds that it can cleave. HoTW is obviously more valuable damage if there is a specific phase that you want burst damage on. However, barring the need for burst damage, if NV does about the same damage as HoTW, why take HoTW, when it requires 45 seconds of doing 0 healing, whereas NV both adds healing and DPS?
2. If you're taking HoTW to use as a healing cooldown, it's heavily dependent on how much value you can get out of a HoTW Tranq every 6 minutes. If your regular Tranq is at 40%+ overheal, you aren't going to gain much from making it 35% stronger. While there were several cases in Highmaul, I can't think of a single Highmaul mechanic where having HoTW Tranq over regular Tranq is particularly valuable.
3. If you're using HoTW primarily as a 45 second healing CD (not just using it primarily for Tranq), how much use are you really getting out of it? What fights have high damage phases needing 35% more throughput that last 45+ seconds? If you are taking it for a 15 second damage window, 2/3 of the cooldown is largely wasted. If there isn't that one spot in a fight that fits super well with HoTW, why not instead go for a smaller throughput increase that's up every 90 seconds and can be lined up more reliably with more abilities?

Personally, this is what L90 talent I am using by fight in BRF.

Beast Lord - DOC
Gruul - NV
Oregorger - NV
Hans and Frans - NV
Flamebender - DOC
Kromog - NV / sometimes HoTW depending on raid comp
Operator - DOC or NV
Blast Furnace - NV
Iron Maidens - DOC or HoTW
Blackhand - NV or HOTW

[Brilynn]

Honestly, I just haven't been feeling my NV doing very much for me. I used to love it, but this tier it just feels really shit-tastic to me...I take DoC on just about every fight other than Kromog/Maidens/Hanz (and Gruul for the first few weeks when DPS was actually an issue). Most fights have pretty decently long phases where HoTs just don't serve as much purpose as I'd like since the damage isn't high enough for them to really get to tick so other healers just snipe em off, so I prefer to just DoC most the time. I only take HotW on Kromog and Maidens because of the way the fights work (lots of damage at the end) and I can use it twice, take it on Hanz and Franz because of the way my raid has managed our CDs it's nice for the phase where we have to move a lot, tree is down, and I can't manage a tranq.