The post your Sub opener thread

[Deleted]

Greetings as there are many ways to go on a sub opening and there is ofcourse much micro-management going on i would love to learn more from eachother regarding the Sub openeren. Atm i am not using Subterfuge (which i will be speccing this friday to test it out) but i am specced into Shadow Focus and here is my opener:

1. -6sec Premd
2. -1sec Prepot
3. 0sec SS and SND
4. Ambush
5. Hemo
6. SR
7. Rupture
8. SD +trinkets
9. Ambush+Evi spam (keeping in mind i will pull of a last ambush in the last second of SD)
10. Hemo
11. Rupture
12. SND
13. When FW wears of ill go Vanish ambush and repeat this after that FW wears of again (with prep ofc.).

This is basicly it. I will just go on with my normal rotation after step 13. I have found that -6sec premd allows you to use premd in the last 2sec of SD and then again in the second vanish, keeping in mind i only pop it when i have 3 CP in my bar.

So anyone else found some cool tips and tricks? Or for those that are using Subterfuge i would love to know how you guys are doing it.

Let the knowledge begin!

[Razzdu]

I don't micromanage my opener nearly as much as some, but I fail to see why some people don't use Garrote. It applies FW AND SV - both of Sub's vital buffs in one GCD.

Unless going Ambush+Hemorrhage is significantly more damage, not using Garrote seems like a wasted opportunity, regardless of your T15 talent choice.

[Athonel]

That's pretty much the same one that I do. Does any other class (or even spec for that matter) require a 13 step opener?

Feral is lol and bursts way better than sub, because their cds are basically shadow dance combined with adrenaline rush combined with the sub 2 piece.

Feral rotation IIRC, stealth, prepot, rake, cds, spam shred to get rip up, then keep spamming shred to fb. lol half the steps, and more damage.

[Deleted]

I don't micromanage my opener nearly as much as some, but I fail to see why some people don't use Garrote. It applies FW AND SV - both of Sub's vital buffs in one GCD.

Unless going Ambush+Hemorrhage is significantly more damage, not using Garrote seems like a wasted opportunity, regardless of your T15 talent choice.

Well i don't have a clear answer to why garrote doesn't seem to be valid. Probably because your wasting energy which could've been used on Ambush. It might be worth trying it on the dummy to see the difference, or maybe someone else comes with an answer.

@Athonel, i doubt it Sub seems to be one of the most complex specs there is atm

[Deleted]

I did some testing with openers for sub, all of them with subterfuge, which I posted in the simcraft thread:



As you can see not every opener applies to every talent choice. Also opener is not that important as you can see by total dps.

[Deleted]

1. -10 sec premed
2. -2 SnD
3. -1 prepot
4. Garrote
5. Ambush
(Honor among Thieves)
6. SR + 5 point rupture
7. SD+ trinkets(if you have any .. )
8. ambushevislife
9. somewhere here use a 5 point SnD , dont know exactly when I do it, also premed somewhere in Dance and;
10. vanish prep vanish (get atleast 2 ambushes in both )
11. rotation

Rupture has probably fallen off like 200 times by now, not going to list them in my opener because its kinda RNG, but oh well

[Athonel]

I run shadow focus. I ambush hemo because it's more combo points, and because it does considerably less damage.

Looking at one of the top 50 sub rogue parses on heroic gruul. The minimum ambush (non crit) was 17411. Total damage from garrote was 17.2k

Btw, the average ambush was 50k. Ambush just does more damage.

[Deleted]

I did some testing with openers for sub, all of them with subterfuge, which I posted in the simcraft thread:



As you can see not every opener applies to every talent choice. Also opener is not that important as you can see by total dps.

First of all thnks for sharing this! I've just got one question; I presume you use SND -2 sec on the number 7 opener( with the 5CP from MFD ofc)?

[Virium]

I personally garrote -> ambush -> SR+SD+trinket after GCD has come back up and instantly ambush -> rupture
You can see top rogue logs with all sorts of openers, it doesn't make a lot of sense to over-think the opener too much. Just copy an opener from one of the top 5 logs in your ilvl bracket on warcraft logs, ask a top tier rogue about the reasoning behind opening, etc.

[Deleted]

First of all thnks for sharing this! I've just got one question; I presume you use SND -2 sec on the number 7 opener( with the 5CP from MFD ofc)?

The way Simcraft is programmed it handles all prepull skills at -0.0 seconds, but still out of combat. So MFD and SnD happen simultaneously but still out of combat.

-0.0 MFD
-0.0 SnD
0.0 Premed
0.0 Ambush
...

In practise you would MFD at ~-11.4s and SnD+pot at -1.5s for max theoretical gain which is humanly achievable, so your first SnD energy proc happens right after pull.

[Smaxy]

I did some testing with openers for sub, all of them with subterfuge, which I posted in the simcraft thread:



As you can see not every opener applies to every talent choice. Also opener is not that important as you can see by total dps.

What about the Anticipation opener with Hemo? Ambush -> Hemo -> Ambush ? This is what Noxe uses. Another thing, since we're not going to take MFD (at least I don't think I will, based upon how Anticipation helps out the rotation), outside of Premeditation there is no way to generate out of combat combo points aside from carrying combo points over from trash?

[warstry]

I've been running:

1. -10 second premed
2. -2 second Prepot/SnD
3. Garrote
4. Ambush
5. Arcane Torrent + Ambush
6. SR
7. Rupture
8. SD
9. Ambush/Evis spam

[Deleted]

In practise you would MFD at ~-11.4s and SnD+pot at -1.5s for max theoretical gain which is humanly achievable, so your first SnD energy proc happens right after pull.

Why ~-11.4s? I thought one combo point disappears at 10s?

[Jayma]

I run shadow focus. I ambush hemo because it's more combo points, and because it does considerably less damage.

Looking at one of the top 50 sub rogue parses on heroic gruul. The minimum ambush (non crit) was 17411. Total damage from garrote was 17.2k

Btw, the average ambush was 50k. Ambush just does more damage.

Ambush doesn't apply Sanguinary Veins which causes the ambush before hemo to do 25% less dmg.

Ambush, hemo is probably better with shadowfocus, but Shadow Focus is becoming a pretty inferior talent choice at this point.

[Deleted]

-10sec premed
-5sec tot
-4sec sprint
-2sec snd
Prepot
Garrotte
Ambush
Ambush
SR
Rupture
SD
Ambush /evis
Then keep fw up with vanish prep vanish shadow meld

[Deleted]

tldr https://twitter.com/Fierydemise/stat...07376921731072

[Deleted]

Why ~-11.4s? I thought one combo point disappears at 10s?

Yes, they start to decay after 10s, that is why there are ~9.9s between MFD and SnD. Realistically you cant make it that close so I put a ~ symbol in front of it.

[Deleted]

Ah... ok.

[B L A D E]

-10 sec premed
-3 sec sprint
-2 sec SnD
-1 sec prepot
Garrote
Ambush
SR
Ambush
Rupture
SD
etc.

[Skarzog]

tldr https://twitter.com/Fierydemise/stat...07376921731072

It really doesn't matter in the long run. The most important part of opening as Sub is to get your SnD up before the pull and get your SR-Rupture-SD going quickly so you can benefit from MoS and trinkets/ring procs.