Won't everyone need to raid for pvp gear?

[XorMalice]

Maybe I don't understand.

The announcement started with stuff like "the fully geared pvp guy is almost twice as strong as the lesser geared pvp guy", and ended with a whole bunch of pvp specific talents.


Somewhere in there was the removal of pvp gear... right?


So.... how does that work, exactly? I mean, lets say your main, Maindred, and your alt, Altbert are level 110 with dungeon blues. You start pvping and earning honor points. Maindred has some points, Altbert has the same points. Then, the raid starts, and Maindred gets some purps.

1- Won't you do a lot better with Maindred than Altbert in a battleground? Maindred and Altbert have the same pvp progression, but Maindred has raid gear.
2- Won't you do a lot better with Maindred than Altbert in world pvp?
3- How does Altbert earn gear, if it doesn't come from pvp?


Am I just misunderstanding everything?

[goblingirl]

The gear is gone, in the way that it exists now, yes.

The implication, although they have not yet been very explicitly saying this, is that everyone is going to be item-leveled in PvP. No matter what your gear is, you go inside and you are all iLevel 800 or whatever. The only thing, then, that differentiates your shaman from the next shaman is how many of the PvP talents you have earned and chosen from the available tiers.

[zardon3001]

From what I heard they didn't say gear was gone, just that the gear difference was too great and they look to fix that. Will be interesting to see how they approach it though.

[meroko]

From what I heard they didn't say gear was gone, just that the gear difference was too great and they look to fix that. Will be interesting to see how they approach it though.

PVP gear is gone but in the interview he did say you can earn PVE gear by PVP'ing.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=d7u8vKLjwZM

[RelaZ]

The gear is gone, in the way that it exists now, yes.

The implication, although they have not yet been very explicitly saying this, is that everyone is going to be item-leveled in PvP. No matter what your gear is, you go inside and you are all iLevel 800 or whatever. The only thing, then, that differentiates your shaman from the next shaman is how many of the PvP talents you have earned and chosen from the available tiers.

https://youtu.be/d7u8vKLjwZM?t=12m20s speaks about it more in-depth.

He says that item levels will not be normalized (no scaling of your gear, pvp-ilvls etc), this is utterly retarded and forces all PvPers into Mythic raiding to get BiS gear, for PvP. It would be the WORST gearing solution yet, worse than TBC, worse than mandatory Ashran/RBG.

They cannot possibly go through with this, have they learned nothing from the shitstorm we just gave them about Ashran/RBG?

Lets assume ilvls are normalized though (they will be, even if the expansion goes live with them not being, it will change quickly - shitstorm).
You are right in what you're saying with the exception that gear itemization may heavily favor some items which are exclusively found in PvE raids, since everything will scale (hopefully) you're fine with doing LFR to get that stat combo you want. However some very rare stat combos might only be available from say Heroic/Mythic, I'll quit the game for good once the day comes that I have to do (serious) PvE content again to get BiS gear in PvP.

We'll also have OP broken trinkets and legendaries etc back in PvP again, they'll have to tweak every single OP raiding trinket for PvP.

Also this "solution" has the same obvious flaw as mandatory and RNG Ashran/RBG - if you're unlucky you might never get BiS.

This is simply put a shitty implementation.

No RNG, No PvE. Please.

[XorMalice]

Ok, so instanced pvp will force an EXACT item level, upscaling and downscaling as needed? Or will it force exact stats period, to the singular?

And world pvp- will that just be raw item level clash?

[meroko]

https://youtu.be/d7u8vKLjwZM?t=12m20s speaks about it more in-depth.

He says that item levels will not be normalized (no scaling of your gear, pvp-ilvls etc), this is utterly retarded and forces all PvPers into Mythic raiding to get BiS gear, for PvP.
.

He said in the interview you JUST linked that you can earn the gear through PVP.

[XorMalice]

Whoa, ok. So he says there's NO scaling, and that instanced pvp (and world pvp) is raw item level clash. He then says you can earn pve gear through pvp, and also the talents.


Well, this sounds like it's a reversion to vanilla logic. Of Randy Raider, Paul Pvper, and Danny Doesboth, Danny will have a massive advantage over Paul and Randy. How Paul and Randy stack up is some juggling of item level and talent, but Danny will clearly by vastly on top.


Errr.... Hrm. Ok, that sounds so redic to me that I'll just have to wait to pass judgment. It sounds totally untenable the way they say it, like basically bring your raid gear or get fucked. We'll see I guess. I'm sure that can't be their goal. But neither does it sound like their goal is to hand out Mythic gear to PvPers, which is what it would take to balance that? I'm sure we'll hear more later.

[XorMalice]

Lets give Holinka a chance to weight in on this one. Obviously there's no point to having a pvp dev if pvp just became "oops we scaled item level to make the raid compelling, so now suddenly your opposing team got the quad damage". That's trivially nonsense and can't really be what's gonna go live. I'm sure he'll kick the shit out of this.

[meathead]

just watched a video somewhere on here and the devs says yes,they are getting ride of pvp gear.he goes on to say that players CAN earn some gear though pvp but does not say how strong the gear will be or how long it will take it get.

if you know/play rift you know what is about to happen.there will be no more pvp or pve gear,it will be just gear now.they will allow players to earn some gear by pvping but this gear will be weak/on the low end of the gear scale.then blizz devs will boost everyone to the same item level inside bgs "just like rift but rift has a floor-middle- and ceiling" with any and all raid gear being bis for both pvp and pve.

pvpers will be left earning weaker gear at a slower rate then raiders earn bis gear.more tokens/marks to buy said gear will be earn faster/and more often by doing pve.resulting is pvpers getting left behind "gear wise" even more.to counter this blizz devs will allow players to unlock pvp only talents,but guess what?at some point even the most hard core pvers will eventually unlock the pvp only talents.so now they will have both a gear advantage and the same pvp talents.

this gear changed killed rifts pvp and most of the pvpers have already left the game.server pops are middle to low even on the pver ones.the same will happen to wow if they go thought this change.jump over to the "rift forums office site" and read for yourselves,its the same dam change.if you dont raid will neve rhave bis gear for pvp.

[Deleted]

It seems like the logical answer would be, all gear scales to X item lvl, which is fine.................however

Each class has its own favorite secondary stats i.e i want haste/mastery on my SP

If the gear you get from pvp does not provide the stats you want but there is some raid gear that does..........BAM! ppl will feel forced to raid for those pieces, and for that reason it seems like they will keep the set bonuses on the PVP gear to make sure even tho the gap is small PVP gear is still a little better than PVE.

[RelaZ]

He said in the interview you JUST linked that you can earn the gear through PVP.

All stat combinations, for every single slot, at the highest possible ilvl (Mythic) available from PvP? That obviously won't happen, PvErs would have to PvP to get BiS gear, can't have that. Meaning PvP BiS gear will be found in Mythic raids.

Unless they add ilvl normalization (which I'm sure they will), in that case it'll be better. I still highly doubt they'll put in gear for all possible stat combinations for every single slot, so some BiS gear will still be found in raids. With the other mentioned issues (RNG, OP trinkets) still remaining.

It seems like the logical answer would be, all gear scales to X item lvl, which is fine.................however

Each class has its own favorite secondary stats i.e i want haste/mastery on my SP

If the gear you get from pvp does not provide the stats you want but there is some raid gear that does..........BAM! ppl will feel forced to raid for those pieces, and for that reason it seems like they will keep the set bonuses on the PVP gear to make sure even tho the gap is small PVP gear is still a little better than PVE.

Sound reasoning, however some of the 4-piece PvP set bonuses of today are really bad and not used so they'll have to think long and hard about remaking those to make them lucrative for Legion if they want to moderate which gear you use for PvP in this way. The set is also only 4 pieces (currently, they could add more I guess) so there are still a lot of items which could potentially be BiS from PvE (just like you mentioned).

Moreover it sounded to me like the gear would be normal PvE gear? I mean the only difference between the current PvP and PvE gear are those set-bonuses and how you get them (honor & conquest), so I'm guessing that's what's gone.

Another thing which was brought up is that if we partly share gear with the PvErs any changes they want to do to ilvls will directly affect us too.

[XorMalice]

I mean, I just think we should wait for a dev to weigh in. As stated, this change ruins everything. They are, uh, probably aware of that fact.

[Dottzx]

Honestly im sure with the expac being as far away as it is that everything will be worked out; we still have a limited amount of info. But basically what ive gathered is there is only PvE gear now in teh game , and thats our gear. and we can earn it through PvP too. my only fear is that raiding gear will out class the gear earned through pvp and force pvpers into raiding which is exactly what i dont want to do

[DechCJC]

Make items, purchasable with gold (or something), that enchant your current item (not over-writing old enchants) to scale to a certain item level in PvP (higher than what you can currently achieve in raids or very close to BiS Mythic) - This means that you can go out in the world and farm the gear with the stats that you want or you could just plop it onto your PvE gear if you have it. This way, you can pvp in any gear that you want for convenience sake while still having to actually do something to obtain the gear (something that's not getting hammered by higher geared players). The other obvious alternative is to just hand out free PvP gear that scales high in PvP scenarios but is quite low anywhere else (quest green level for PvE/Mythic ilvl in PvP).

Or I don't know, something like that. Whatever they do, I hope there's some kind of way to scale my item level up the moment a player attacks me; It's going to be really annoying if some full Mythic geared backpedaler can just one shot me outside of bgs because I don't have gear to scale me up. With all that being said, i'm sure they're not going to let it go live like this, they said themselves that it's not enjoyable to be behind in gear; They'd be contradicting themselves if they didn't address this problem.

[trevoroxx]

Idk if this has/hasnt been said anywhere but its how i think scaling could work:

You will probably get the weaker versions of every single pve item in the game through pvp (honor/strongboxes). Maybe the super cool items with procs that summon things and shit will be converted into the basic + damage trinket. point is when it scales id imagine youd be able to choose your secondary stats and trinkets from the hundreds of crap pieces youre gonna collect (strongboxes lol what a waste just give the option of getting straight gold for the win and save the bagspace/hassle).

This way you will still have the ability to customize your pvp play but still remain weak in pve.

[Stormspellz]

wouldn't be a big deal if they boost your ilvl to heroic warforged ilvl and disable sets/tinket procs

but i doubt that is whats going to happen.

[Luxeley]

If people have to raid for BiS gear for PvP I won't even go near this expansion, but I don't think Blizzard would be that stupid.
I'm sure they'll have a viable and reasonable solution to gear players for PvP and keep it separate from PvE.

I agree with part of what you say. And that is, if people have to raid and not only raid, but raid on mythic level, I am 100% done with WOW after playing nearly 7 years. I disagree with you with regard to Blizzard being that stupid. After all, they did hire Holinka and they did toss WOD at us. I honestly think they will go through with this stupidity.

[Tojara]

They have minimum threshold scaling upon entering PvP combat right now, with the outright removal of PvP gear it seems fairly logical in my eyes that they would simply make it so your iLvL rises upon entering PvP combat. For example in the current season maximum iLvL is 730 with conquest gear, with the removal of PvP gear they could simply just make you scale to 730 automatically upon entering PvP combat, giving advantage to nobody.

As far as gear selection and itemization goes, that's fairly easy to fix too. Throw a bunch of items that have a pretty low base item level, but are itemized differently. sort of like we have now with 2-3 different selections for stats on each item. Now upon entering PvP combat these scale up to the threshold they set for each season, and they of course naturally scale up as the expansion progresses. What this does is basically what we have now, except with the added bonus of removing the the grind for the gear in addition to putting everybody on equal footing.

There is no advantage to doing PvE in the above situation if they keep a threshold minimum iLvL in place that closely reflects what you would have obtained with theoretical conquest gear added in. For example the range in HFC Mythic for gear is 720-735, with most of the items squarely at the 725. Meaning that theoretical highest iLvL is probably going to be around 730, which perfectly aligns with the iLvL you're set at with full conquest gear now. Seems to me that would be the most logical way to do it and the easiest way to do it as well.

This keeps the grind away, people on equal footing and puts all of the rewards firmly in the prestige category (pets, mounts, banners, titles, transmog etc).

Right now the only place that PvE gear can possibly earn you an advantage is in world PvP. Set bonuses don't work in instanced PvP, but even in world PvP the item levels should be very similar when comparing full Mythic HFC to full conquest. PvP trinkets are probably superior to PvE trinkets in PvP considering they give flat DR, which leaves the only advantage being the legendary ring.

[rda]

https://youtu.be/d7u8vKLjwZM?t=12m20s speaks about it more in-depth.

He says that item levels will not be normalized (no scaling of your gear, pvp-ilvls etc), this is utterly retarded and forces all PvPers into Mythic raiding to get BiS gear, for PvP. It would be the WORST gearing solution yet, worse than TBC, worse than mandatory Ashran/RBG.

They cannot possibly go through with this, have they learned nothing from the shitstorm we just gave them about Ashran/RBG?

Lets assume ilvls are normalized though (they will be, even if the expansion goes live with them not being, it will change quickly - shitstorm).
You are right in what you're saying with the exception that gear itemization may heavily favor some items which are exclusively found in PvE raids, since everything will scale (hopefully) you're fine with doing LFR to get that stat combo you want. However some very rare stat combos might only be available from say Heroic/Mythic, I'll quit the game for good once the day comes that I have to do (serious) PvE content again to get BiS gear in PvP.

We'll also have OP broken trinkets and legendaries etc back in PvP again, they'll have to tweak every single OP raiding trinket for PvP.

Also this "solution" has the same obvious flaw as mandatory and RNG Ashran/RBG - if you're unlucky you might never get BiS.

This is simply put a shitty implementation.

No RNG, No PvE. Please.

I just watched this fragment and I am stunned.

I was concerned about them not saying anything about normalization, but I kind of thought that they would do it, because, well, nobody is stupid enough not to do it, right? we fought with this for years.

Now I see this (no normalization).

GG