Guardians: Mastery or Multistrike?

[Dejablue]

EDIT: I am in no way trying to do a macroed /cancelaura Ursa Major. Removal of UM was solely to provide an extreme example.

Recently both AMR and Simulationcraft changed their stat weights from Master/Versatility to Multistrike/Mastery. With bonus armor where possible.

Is there a consensus?

I am interested in the argument for Mastery as well as HEALER's perspective, specifically since we have moved from the MoP paradigm of spikey tank damage and topping off immediately to now having room for HoTs to tick and also tank's self healing, especially Guardians and Bloods,


Here is my debate for Multisrike:

Ursa Major is percentage based.

What this means is that Multistrike is not just health but also mitigation.

Lets say at baseline you have 500K HP and you take a hit of 100K, you are now at 400K HP. That is 20% of your HP.

Lets say now that you have focused on multistrike and you have a reasonable 600K HP.

You take that same 100K hit and are now at 500K instead of 400K as before. You could take another 100K hit and be back at where you were with one 100K hit without focusing on MS. But we are talking %s so instead of a 20% HP hit that same 100K was a 16.6% hit.

This plays out even after the fact. Lets say that you have max HP of 600K and take the 100K hit and go down to 500K HP and then you lose the Ursa Major buff, or more likely it goes down from say 20% to 15%. When this happens it doesn't effect that damage already taken, it simply scales down what HP you have left based on the %.

In this example you have 600K HP and take a 100K hit and go down to 500K HP. Then you lose Ursa Major, for example all of it, and your max HP goes back down to 500K HP, but the healers have not healed you yet. Meanwhile the 100K damage taken has been scaled down because it was calculated at the 600K level and now that you have a max HP of 500K you display 416,666 HP left instead of displaying 400K HP left as you would have if you had a max HP of 500K when you took the 100K hit. The % carried over and has provided mitigation versus your baseline HP.

Now in practice it will usually not be all or nothing it will be deviations both ways but the good news is that even if you peak at say 37% then any damage taken is mitigated. Sure, in the moment of wanting to top me off healers may consider me a mana sponge, but if nothing happens, no heals come in, and I take the hit and Ursa Major is reduced afterwards then damage was mitigated and I need less healing.

For healers it is counter intuitive, especially after MoP and the whack-a-mole spiky damage we took and constant need to top off tanks.

Now we have self healing and active mitigation so overhealing room needs to be left not just for HOTS and other healers but also for tanks, especially Guardians and Blood DKs.

We will of course be toped off before specials like Inferno Slice but those are special mechanics where CDs are used, they are planned for and are not normal ability expenditure based.

[Deleted]

I'd go mastery>multistrike.

Most leather gear has both of it in BRF, so no real choice, so get mastery in your enchants. I find that there is no real huge advantage in getting obscene levels of multistrike, its nice to have it up to 25%+ passively single target, but having much much more than that wouldn't really do much.

You have to also remember the 5% bonus from your survival of the fittest buff, which makes mastery all that more attractive.

[Raugnaut]

Yes, as you lose Ursa Major health, and your HP % changes to match that, you "mitigate" the damage. At the same time, as you GAIN the stacks, you "take" more damage. And law of averages states that everything gets averaged out.

Now, I suppose that Bears can utilize Ursa Major to actually have a bit of a block- You can /cancelaura the buff, and go back down to health. (For instance, if you had, say, 100% extra HP, and cancelaura that buff, you would effectively have reduced the actual damage taken by 50%).

Thats all assuming that it actually is mitigation, and not misunderstood.

Overall though, Mastery just flat-out provides more mitigation, and does so COMPLETELY passively.

[Dejablue]

I'd go mastery>multistrike.

Most leather gear has both of it in BRF, so no real choice, so get mastery in your enchants. I find that there is no real huge advantage in getting obscene levels of multistrike, its nice to have it up to 25%+ passively single target, but having much much more than that wouldn't really do much.

You have to also remember the 5% bonus from your survival of the fittest buff, which makes mastery all that more attractive.

Yea the gear is the same it comes down to gems and chant choices.

Yes, as you lose Ursa Major health, and your HP % changes to match that, you "mitigate" the damage. At the same time, as you GAIN the stacks, you "take" more damage. And law of averages states that everything gets averaged out.

Now, I suppose that Bears can utilize Ursa Major to actually have a bit of a block- You can /cancelaura the buff, and go back down to health. (For instance, if you had, say, 100% extra HP, and cancelaura that buff, you would effectively have reduced the actual damage taken by 50%).

Thats all assuming that it actually is mitigation, and not misunderstood.

Overall though, Mastery just flat-out provides more mitigation, and does so COMPLETELY passively.

As I gain stacks I do not take more damage because the incoming hits remain static at 100K. If you look the other way, say I take the hit pre Ursa Major and have a max HP of 500K, take the 100K hit, go down to 400K then gain Ursa Major taking my max hp up to 600K and my current health from 400K to 416K. Going up I simply take whatever damage is taken.

[exochaft]

I think it's safe to say that most healers pay attention to the health deficit percentage versus the actual missing help amount when it comes to choosing heals. Playing games with Ursa Major will likely not alter how a healer responds to damage taken, and purposefully removing UM can actually have the opposite effect upon subsequent hits since the %HP lost per hit may actually be greater before UM builds up again. If you find yourself at a health deficit where the only way your healers can catch us is by dropping your UM stack, you're likely going to die because of the amount of damage you've been taking to get in that situation anyways. Only real viable case where dropping UM to let healers catch up would be damage dealt that's based upon a percentage of your max HP.

Mastery's purpose is to smooth out the damage you take, let it do its job. The effect is much more pronounced at higher levels of mastery once you reach them. If it's magic damage you're worried about... well, that's what our CD's and FR are for.

[Dejablue]

I think it's safe to say that most healers pay attention to the health deficit percentage versus the actual missing help amount when it comes to choosing heals. Playing games with Ursa Major will likely not alter how a healer responds to damage taken, and purposefully removing UM can actually have the opposite effect upon subsequent hits since the %HP lost per hit may actually be greater before UM builds up again. If you find yourself at a health deficit where the only way your healers can catch us is by dropping your UM stack, you're likely going to die because of the amount of damage you've been taking to get in that situation anyways. Only real viable case where dropping UM to let healers catch up would be damage dealt that's based upon a percentage of your max HP.

Mastery's purpose is to smooth out the damage you take, let it do its job. The effect is much more pronounced at higher levels of mastery once you reach them. If it's magic damage you're worried about... well, that's what our CD's and FR are for.

I never said anything about removing UM as a method of practice, that was suggested by someone else. It will fluctuate back and forth around 15% and 25% with ~ 3 - 6 second spikes peaking at 35+% my current gear, losing all of it was for explanation.

If healers are only going on %, which I assume and is the point but also a problem, then they will see my HP % and actual HP up more than with Mastery. If UM fluctuates down and I take a hit, I am not going to take more damage than what was dealt.

However if I proc more UM then the healer wont see that reflected in % as it maintains the current % but increases max HP and also gives me more current health. That increased current health may not be seen by a healer only looking at % because the % stayed the same.

I would love to capitulate because Mastery is passive and easier. I am not convinced it is better. The point is nearly moot because weighing stats either way yields the same BiS loot table and the only thing one can change is gems and enchants.

My mind is truly open, I want to know the answer and am looking where I can.

To that end, the linked website with one of the creators of the TMI and Simulation Craft (or he at least does a podcast "Tank Cast" with him and appears to endorse and provides tutorials for it) have changed Sim C and acknowledged that Sim C and AMR are weighing Multistrike above Mastery but they are not convinced either.

As well, I am not using Sim C and AMR as gospel, I certainly think for myself, hence why I am here questioning the status quo, but I do want to know where things stand and WHY so I can make informed decisions on a boss by boss basis for various reasons, such as knowing a fight is a weak point for Guardians and there is nothing I can do about it Guardian stat wise.

I appreciate any information and insights you and anyone has.

Cheers!

EDIT: I have also looked over logs and watched videos for:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Pumps/advanced
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...d-Guardian-PoV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3LvX1dguE&hd=1

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Sejta/advanced
Etc.

These are highly skilled players and with such a tight table of loot where only gems and chants matter and who may also already be on farm or broken through Mythic progression and gear thresholds like 2 and 4 piece I am not certain what to do moving into Mythic progression. My guild leader and raid leader have said as much, to not worry about it, a good player it wont matter because the loot is the same and it is just gems and chants.

So, I am set to go Mastery with Blackrock, but I am certainly curious, and while I can test out MS with farm content I really do not wish to waste other's time or patience doing so.

As well, over the last month I have read several posts by Guardians, we are rare as one can imagine, but those in the middle of progression have said MS helps but that once they get past it Mastery is where they go back to. I am not sure if this is because if higher ilvl and thus more HP from gear, 2 piece or 4 piece, etc.

Thanks again for your time.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

MS is easier to achieve than stamina. Once we get to a certain Ilvl the mitigation aspect you describe from MS may get bigger (with more MS and bigger health pools) but less effective. The idea in progression has mostly always been: get stamina, then go for mitigation. You want big healthpools to survive hits you're not geared for. Once you get geared you have the mitigation to actually survive them properly.

I'm not saying I'm a hig-end bear like the ones you linked (Although I wouldn't trust sejta anymore, at least not his gear choices, since he is using other classes for progression now THX OBAMA) but I still believe that to be true.

This is why MS is the go to stat for progression, but while progressing you try and stack up on mastery when able. I myself am considering the following at the moment: BA >> mastery > Multistrike >> versatility

Weapon enchants are a tricky thing right now. I'd consider Mastery for farm, Blackrock for progress, since on progress your uptime will be higher.
Tier is not a reason we change I believe. This tier is very disappointing for us. The 2 set is handy for rage control. But that's about it.
I don't even consider the 4 set to be a bonus. At 250% resolve I'm already at 34% overhealing on frenzied rejuv, and on 45% overhealing on CW, I don't want even more burst healing, I want to be able to use it more, hence the 2 set being good.

Last point I have to make. MS is a fickle mistress, You have a solid 30% up and have a huge hit incoming, chances are you will proc an MS (after a drought) and drop down to 4% 1 second before it hits. (Thanks to Mythic gruul for that one)

[exochaft]

Last point I have to make. MS is a fickle mistress, You have a solid 30% up and have a huge hit incoming, chances are you will proc an MS (after a drought) and drop down to 4% 1 second before it hits. (Thanks to Mythic gruul for that one)

Ain't that the truth, I gave up and started just using a stamina trinket on Gruul since we don't need the extra DPS and it provides that buffer where Ursa Major sometimes got me killed. This is mostly why I treat MS as a DPS stat versus a survivability one, as we don't have control over it and one of the biggest complaints about Guardian survivability is the RNG factor. The less I rely upon Ursa Major to get me through an encounter, the better the chance that it doesn't get me killed. There's also the irony of our healthpools being less of a factor the further into mythic BRF you go, at least towards the typical boss progression path. Getting gear (and mastery) helps, but I've felt there's less instantly dangerous "tank-killer" mechanics on the back end of BRF that require massive HP or mitigation.

These are highly skilled players and with such a tight table of loot where only gems and chants matter and who may also already be on farm or broken through Mythic progression and gear thresholds like 2 and 4 piece I am not certain what to do moving into Mythic progression. My guild leader and raid leader have said as much, to not worry about it, a good player it wont matter because the loot is the same and it is just gems and chants.

So, I am set to go Mastery with Blackrock, but I am certainly curious, and while I can test out MS with farm content I really do not wish to waste other's time or patience doing so.

As well, over the last month I have read several posts by Guardians, we are rare as one can imagine, but those in the middle of progression have said MS helps but that once they get past it Mastery is where they go back to. I am not sure if this is because if higher ilvl and thus more HP from gear, 2 piece or 4 piece, etc.

Thanks again for your time.

I'm probably unique since I have multiple Guardian druids with varying gear setups, so I get the chance to mess around with different stat allocations/enchants/etc... sometimes I don't have a choice when it comes to loot that actually drops, too. From a survivability standpoint, as I've mentioned in other threads, mastery levels make a huge difference in Guardian survivability. There's only been a few times where my health has been a concern, and altering my cooldown usage or just throwing on a stamina trinket solved those issues. I've generally regretted relying upon Ursa Major via MS for survivability, because we cannot control it. My second-best-geared druid actually has a lot more MS (and less mastery) that my main druid, and I certainly feel more survivable overall opting towards mastery.

[Raugnaut]

As I gain stacks I do not take more damage because the incoming hits remain static at 100K. If you look the other way, say I take the hit pre Ursa Major and have a max HP of 500K, take the 100K hit, go down to 400K then gain Ursa Major taking my max hp up to 600K and my current health from 400K to 416K. Going up I simply take whatever damage is taken.

You have baseline 600k hp, your UM takes you up to 800k. You take a 400k hit, go down to 400k/800k. You loose your UM BEFORE you can be healed. Does HP go down to A) 300k/600k (Health %age remains the same), or B) 400k/600k (Actual health amount stays the same). Either way, to hit 100% health, you need to be healed for LESS then what you did before UM brought you up (At the very least, 100k less, or 25% less then what you would otherwise need in this situation). Finally, lets assume that you tank-swap off right here after being healed to full, and climb back to 800k health. Pretty much, you "mitigated" 100k hp in this scenario. Probably not useful currently, but should bears start reaching REALLY high HP through Ursa Major, manually cancelling UM to lower the amount healers need to heal you may be a valid thing to do, providing you can survive burst (should be able to) with lower health pool.

[Braindwen]

You have baseline 600k hp, your UM takes you up to 800k. You take a 400k hit, go down to 400k/800k. You loose your UM BEFORE you can be healed. Does HP go down to A) 300k/600k (Health %age remains the same), or B) 400k/600k (Actual health amount stays the same). Either way, to hit 100% health, you need to be healed for LESS then what you did before UM brought you up (At the very least, 100k less, or 25% less then what you would otherwise need in this situation). Finally, lets assume that you tank-swap off right here after being healed to full, and climb back to 800k health. Pretty much, you "mitigated" 100k hp in this scenario. Probably not useful currently, but should bears start reaching REALLY high HP through Ursa Major, manually cancelling UM to lower the amount healers need to heal you may be a valid thing to do, providing you can survive burst (should be able to) with lower health pool.

1: It would be situation A: you go to 300k/600k. UM preserves % health.

2: Cancelling UM in that situation does the following: Damage you for 100k, and reduce your maximum health by 200k. It does nothing positive, actually *increasing* the healing you need from the healers to get back to a safe point. The only situation where that could conceivably be a good idea is something like baleroc's decimation blade, a situation where you really wouldn't want a bear who's stacking MS in the first place.

3: If you swap afterward, nobody will ever care that you required 100k less healing, because it's just going to be passively healed up by stuff like bacon or lifebloom. UM would not be fully restacked by the time you taunt back either; that crap has ~45s of ramp-up, so you would end up lowering your max health while tanking in exchange for adding 100k overhealing.

Cancelling could be useful against a %HP attack, but that's the only situation where it's not a completely terrible idea.

[Raugnaut]

1: It would be situation A: you go to 300k/600k. UM preserves % health.

2: Cancelling UM in that situation does the following: Damage you for 100k, and reduce your maximum health by 200k. It does nothing positive, actually *increasing* the healing you need from the healers to get back to a safe point.

Given that UM preserves health %age, as your HP returns to 800k, your current HP amount will also remain static (For instance, if you are healed back to 500/600k, and then recieve a large string of multistrikes in a short period of time and your max HP returns to 800k, your current hp will be 666/800k). You were healed for 200k, and then need to be healed for an additional 134k to return to max health, so you only needed to be healed for 334k hp, DOWN from the original amount of 400k hp.

So... I'm pretty sure you are mistaken there, and canceling UM CAN be a form of mitigation, since UM causes your health%age to remain constant, and will NO way, in any form, cause healers to HAVE to heal you for more. So this would be useful on fights where you have periodic, predictable large spikes of damage with normal auto-damage the rest of the way (Think Execute with Nazgrim). It also requires Healers to be aware that you are doing this (No Problem with well-cooridinated groups) so that they ONLY heal you for as much as you need healing.

[exochaft]

So... I'm pretty sure you are mistaken there, and canceling UM CAN be a form of mitigation, since UM causes your health%age to remain constant, and will NO way, in any form, cause healers to HAVE to heal you for more. So this would be useful on fights where you have periodic, predictable large spikes of damage with normal auto-damage the rest of the way (Think Execute with Nazgrim). It also requires Healers to be aware that you are doing this (No Problem with well-cooridinated groups) so that they ONLY heal you for as much as you need healing.

If the group is well-coordinated enough to deal with dropping UM as a tactic for damage spikes, they should be good enough to just use efficient heals or just not top you off and let HoT's do their thing (since nothing does %HP damage in the current tier or is based upon %HP). The big problem comes when at the end of all this, your actual remaining health gets lowered if you preserve your health percentage when one drops UM, and we cannot control UM stacks building up on-demand. It's likely just better to let UM do it's thing versus trying to micromanage it, especially since we're designed around having some level of UM stacks up at any given time.

This isn't to say that there may be some issues with tanks having massive HP disparities versus the healing attention required to keep them comfortably alive, I just don't think messing with UM like this will have much of an effect. Going kitty probably has a more profound effect, although I'm assuming this discussion involves actively tanking.