What if PvP isn't that bad? Even as a Destro Lock...

[JellyRollzz]

--- TLDR ---
PvP isn't as bad as people say, even for destro locks. The standard complaints like too much burst, too much cc, gearing, healers, either can properly be handled if you know how to play or have always been in the game considering PvP. Off healing is a bit crazy and the game is not perfect, but does anyone else think that game is not that much different? Or am I genuinely missing something?

After reading complaint after complaint on reddit, mmo-champ, and the wow forums, I felt really compelled to post this.

I made my warlock during patch 3.1 in 2009 in Wotlk. I've PvPed in pretty much every patch since then. Honestly, after 6 years of mostly destro spec, PvP (to me) really isn't that bad...nor has it really changed since late MoP.

It's so weird to me the kinds of posts people have been posting on reddit for the last month. Everything from, too much burst, too much cc, gearing is too hard, can't kill healers, etc. After playing this game for about 8 years, I'm wondering if I have gotten so use to WoW that those types of complaints don't bother me or it's just not true. My question to the community is...have I gotten to complacent with WoW and the game really sucks now? Or do people just not know how to play lol?

Firstly, here are a few screenshots - http://imgur.com/a/9Cm0B - from the last month in random BGS. The last one if from December 8th 2014 when I had mostly blue gear. Now, I know that anybody can play a ranged class and have an execute spell to rack up killing blows, but I'm usually most damage done and way ahead of everyone else in the BG. If there is a time where I've seen an ENORMOUS amount of people complaining about destro it's now. But, all of these screenshots were taken this expac in destro spec.

To be fair guys...PvP really hasn't changed that much since 5.3. In that patch, they added base resilience for everyone, and off healing was buffed. Another big change to pvp was during the Cata launch that increased everyone's health by triple. (in WoD they got rid of resilience but again increased health and lowered damage) But WoD PvP, to me, is just an extension of MoP's style of play.
The only complaint that I agree with people is the outrageous amount of off healing almost every class can do. Including pure dps. I can spec Searing Flame and Charred Remains and become a healer essentially. However...

Too much burst? Really? Where were you guys in early BC and early Wrath? You could straight up global people with 2 piece PvE gear (destro conflag) and engineering trinkets. It's always been that way. Burst is apart of PvP and probably always will be. However, we can counter it. You have cc and offheals. Even destro right now can sit in a multi chain cc burst in 1v1 and survive if you know how to play.
Too much cc? If you didn't play late MoP, you don't know too much cc. God lord cc was crazy. I will agree that the 'ability pruning' really didn't do that great of a job, because most classes can still chain healers for 15+ sec. But, again, if you know what your doing and spec/glyph right, you can get around it. Most classes have a stun, disorient, kick and a root. Not really that hard to remember.

Gearing too hard? LOL??? I don't get this one. Right now, 100% certainty, is the easiest time ever to gear your main/alt. With Glad sanctum and gear boxes off bgs, you can at least basic blue gear in a few days so you won't get your nuts smashed. You may not get a lot of killing blows or top damage meters, but you can at least contribute until you get full geared. I see a lot of videos (such as WoWnation and PvE blogs) talking about how much harder it is than raiding? Really? If I went into a Heroic/Mythic raid not spec/glyphed and geared right, I would probably suck just as much if you did the same with PvP. Why is that any different? Gear is apart of the game, and it's sure as hell not THAT hard to get it currently in WoD.

Can't kill healers? Maybe. Healing is pretty crazy right now, but if you really focus on your chain and burst, you can at least stop them from healing other people in a bg and contribute enough to allow your team to kill other people. I do this all the time in randoms. People don't focus healers, so I do my best to at least cc them and focus a little burst so they can't heal the raid. But again, it's always been like this. Healers have ALWAYS been hard to kill. It's designed that way. If you could kill them easily, they wouldn't play it.

I know this is long and I've said a bunch. But is there anyone else out there who has been playing awhile that feels the same way as me? Or am I just blinded by experience of the game and is it really that much different? Even from a few years ago? I'm really curious to see what people who do well in BGS say.

[Gatsbybutters]

So because its easy to gear and you kill people in randoms pvp is in a good state? Oki doke.
Why recount in pvp tho(or at all actually, skada does the same without bogging your comp down)?

[Illiterate]

tl;dr you addressed a total of 0 points that actually matter

[JellyRollzz]

So because its easy to gear and you kill people in randoms pvp is in a good state? Oki doke.
Why recount in pvp tho(or at all actually, skada does the same without bogging your comp down)?

Good point. Maybe it's not in a 'good state' or even the best. But what I was trying to point out is that even in okay gear you can survive and do decent damage. To me we have had this state of play for awhile. It's just weird to me the amount of posts people make about how bad it is. Once you geared and have a good understanding of the class, its still basic cc and burst (since forever). We have more defensive cds, and I pointed out off healing is crazy, but its still wow Pvp.

I've had recount forever. I don't even look at it in PvP. Just there from other addons and other alts.

[solarfallz]

It's less of an "extension" of MoP PVP, and more of an "exaggeration of only the bad parts" of MoP PVP. Since Wrath, virtually every expansion has fallen further into the "everyone either dies instantly or never dies at all" pace of PVP, thanks largely to the insane amount of damage cooldowns vs the insane amount of instant/passive heals and defensive abilities. If you don't kill someone with retarded overpowered burst, nobody dies at all. It's gotten worse every expansion. The risk vs reward of many abilities and classes is completely insane, too. Mages, for instance, have to bust their ass to get one or two frostbolts off in PVP, only for them to do so little damage they damn near heal the opponent. But comet storm and ice nova, instant casts with a relatively low CD, virtually no way to stop or outplay them? Yeah, those hit for like 5x as much as frostbolt. Really awful design. Mages aren't the only ones that way. Why does Murder of Crows do like 250k damage as an instant-cast non-dispellable dot? Who in the world thought Clarity of Power was a good idea? Why is enhanced bandit's guile a thing? Why do fire mages do zero damage without hot streaks? Why does burst of speed even exist? It is all a mystery.

On a somewhat related note, MoP was a rollercoaster for me. I enjoyed the even number patches, and hated the odd number patches. Loved 5.0, then 5.1 nerfed a number of fun things and generally slowed down the game. 5.2 comes along and PVE gear and ultra-damage was back in action and I really loved it. 5.3 introduces base resilience and item level fuckery in what was easily my least favorite patch of all time (and I've played literally all of them). 5.4 came back strong though with Timeless Isle and some big ol' buffs to a bunch of classes for some super fun.

[Ktperry]

Seriously i wont even bother to read the wall of text, i just saw you used random bg's as an example.
Sure i can go with 3 of my mates on their healer, and me on my Ele shammy and wreck people in random bg's.
Does this mean Ele is good? Fuck no.


I already lost faith in Blizzard about balancing pvp.
Instead of every expansion make changes, wasting so much time trying to invent new to things to add to Pvp, they could just go and separate the spells.

Spell X, deals Y dmg in PVe, and Z dmg in Pvp. Simple as that. Then it has a chance to be balanced, until then FO.

[Thelxi]

The problem with destruction is how easy one and especially more than one melee can completely shut down the spec with very little effort while not having the tools to deal with that whatsoever.

[Stormspellz]

Good point. Maybe it's not in a 'good state' or even the best. But what I was trying to point out is that even in okay gear you can survive and do decent damage. To me we have had this state of play for awhile. It's just weird to me the amount of posts people make about how bad it is. Once you geared and have a good understanding of the class, its still basic cc and burst (since forever). We have more defensive cds, and I pointed out off healing is crazy, but its still wow Pvp.

I've had recount forever. I don't even look at it in PvP. Just there from other addons and other alts.

now go play 30 matches of 3v3 with a destro. Random bgs is literally another world.

[Talon8669]

OP I agree, while I haven't played arenas this xpac I have played a lot of rbgs and really my only complaint is off healing. It's just out of control, wish we could go back to TBC or even wrath but those days are behind us. Will they return? Maybe but not this xpac. In all honesty my real complaint with PvP is lack of world PvP with a reason to do it beyond griefing. I had high hopes for ashran but that place is abysmal. At least group finder you can find event groups and get some decent gear and start getting in pug rbgs until fully geared and ready to do real rbgs with a set group.

[DenniZ]

I dont think random bg's are the right reference to the current state of PVP.

[Gatsbybutters]

Good point. Maybe it's not in a 'good state' or even the best. But what I was trying to point out is that even in okay gear you can survive and do decent damage. To me we have had this state of play for awhile. It's just weird to me the amount of posts people make about how bad it is. Once you geared and have a good understanding of the class, its still basic cc and burst (since forever). We have more defensive cds, and I pointed out off healing is crazy, but its still wow Pvp.

I've had recount forever. I don't even look at it in PvP. Just there from other addons and other alts.

In all seriousness, go play some rated bgs or arenas, and get back to us on how balanced you think it is. I have fun in randoms too, because most randoms are filled with bot targets and S key heroes.

And turn recount off for pvp. It's a resource hog, it will help your comp's performance. If you hit esc they have an add on menu you can bring up where you can turn them on and off with a quick reload while you wait at the gate.

[Faenskap]

PvP especially as destro is not in a good state. I can link 20+ kbs with 0 death screenshots too, but what do they prove? That sometimes you can feel like we're back in MoP.

Melee is truly a big problem. I use Recount too though, and it's so fun to see I'm always taking 20% of all damage in a 10m bg (yes, it can't be 100 % accurate, I realise this)

Getting blue gear isn't as shit as it once was, I'll give Blizz that. But getting that conquest gear though - ugh. If you think gearing up isn't hard or time consuming, do it like me - just through bgs! Because why? No random people wanna play with destro in rated pvp.

[Gatsbybutters]

PvP especially as destro is not in a good state. I can link 20+ kbs with 0 death screenshots too, but what do they prove? That sometimes you can feel like we're back in MoP.

Melee is truly a big problem. I use Recount too though, and it's so fun to see I'm always taking 20% of all damage in a 10m bg (yes, it can't be 100 % accurate, I realise this)

Getting blue gear isn't as shit as it once was, I'll give Blizz that. But getting that conquest gear though - ugh. If you think gearing up isn't hard or time consuming, do it like me - just through bgs! Because why? No random people wanna play with destro in rated pvp.

It's not that it can or can't be 100% accurate, it's that it won't be 100% accurate, or even close. You're using a hammer when you should be using a screwdriver, but at the same time its a very heavy hammer, slowing you down. Recount has its uses, but none of them are in bgs. Just fyi, do you.

[Deleted]

how about you prove it by reaching 2k as destro, you're at 1.5 atm

[Deleted]

I read two lines and the title and two words are echoing in my head: SUB! FIFTEENHUNDRED!

Is the OP as horrible as I think? Is it worth reading on?

[Gatsbybutters]

Does recount even bother at all if u have a decent computer? Since ppl seem to be talking about it or whats the fuzz about?

Depends what your doing, your settings, connections, etc, but in most cases recount eats a lot of resources compared to most other add ons. Like I said, recount has its uses, but pvp just isnt one of them. I loved recount. I used that shit every day. But I turned it off in pvp because of it's short range and the fact that overall dps/hps simply doesnt matter in pvp. I use skada now because its just a lighter recount (for pve), and im always on the look out for better performing add ons.

[Jeanti]

Pvp isn't in such a bad state.

I have no other argument that as still like playing (and i play ele sham, top kek), so my point is that if people don't like to pvp anymore, there's probably is a problem.

I think that it's the point to OP here. Trying to name exactly what is wrong, if anything, is useless.

Now we can all argue for years about what the problem really is, but in the end, almost all those posting will still be pvping. But crying that pvp is shitty is untrue, not constructive and depressing for everyone.

[Deleted]

PVP is shit. The reason most (note I said most) people pvp is because they want to feel powerful, to defeat other players, they don't really care about arenas and even less about high ratings, these guys are pve-ers and casuals, the brunt of the wow playerbase.

Now, here comes the problem. The classes and specs are so well balanced (sarcasm btw) that unless you play a dk, feral druid or one of the millions of huntards, you really can't have fun in pvp because you're only fodder not only for these guys but for many others as well due to your class losing a lot of cc and mobility while melee lost none. This puts melee classes, pretty much all of them, higher on the pvp food chain than the ranged (bar hunters, only ranged class that can still have fun in pvp).

As a ranged class player you have 3 options: reroll to an OP melee, stay out of pvp, or just cancel sub until brighter times. Considering how awful this expansion is as well, a lot have chose option 3 altogether, while others are going with 2. Which is now why most things in bgs are dks, ferals, hunters, warriors (deluded as always that they are "owning", when in reality they suck at pvp and only only work in group pvp) and their disc priests and resto druid healers. Everyone else has fucked off to pve and/or other games.