Am I a noob for liking Raynor?

[kriimsilm]

When you talk about being a good solo pusher as Raynor, I assume you mean against an empty lane, because that's the only lane Raynor is good at pushing.

And if you're sitting in an empty lane as Raynor, you are a detriment to your team. Period.

No. Not an empty lane, man. I remember right now atleast one time I have pushed against two heroes and once atleast against Valla. And i did it well. Well, as it was quick match, and i have said it before in this thread, that it could easily be, that my opponents have been even more of noobs as I am.

[PaladinBash]

Raynor is the vanilla ret of heroes. Shit, easy to play, liked by baddies and reliant on a passive, an ineffective heal and autoattacks. If anyone can actually top tier him, they are going to be horrific if he ever gets buffed.

Still better and more reliable than Nova even though good Novas are pro at noobslaying. Nova is a character that very much shows your skill vs someone shit. Raynor kinda just...sits there killing you. It's boring.

[Nikkaszal]

I'm done commenting on Raynor's 1v1 (in)ability. A fight where magically landing all 3 Q's without having to chase and assuming they do nothing in return is getting old.

If I am to believe he is what you say he is, Raynor since his rework is then just 1 ability with average range and good damage that is average in teamfights, especially with any hero who makes NPCs to eat the first shot, and he isn't useful until lvl 16. Good to know we are agree he isn't very good. I personally dislike the Q spec Raynor's since it tries to be what he isn't, that is in close range trying to land Q's, and spec'd full AA with GK and NF at 20 so he can sit back and shred people while having his cc for when he needs it. He doesn't have the tankiness nor the mobility to get into the fray and land Q's on targets who need them.

He is just Okay. The problem is, there's at least 4 assassin who are better than okay which makes him weak.

So you're building a subpar spec because you don't like the Q spec (which does much, much more than AA) and are wondering why you find Raynor ineffective?

Rightyho then!

[Lesane]

Correct about needing the choice between 5-hit and double-proc. Bringing back BM and moving those other two onto the same tier, then changing Grace Of Air to provide double procs on all skills (otherwise you'd have a choice between a 5-hit WF with 5 procs or a 3-hit with 6, no brainer) would be a good fix.

Being able to 1v3 people who didn't have stuns was pretty bonkers, but the nerf was too harsh. This idea would bring back his melee staying power while forcing you to choose between burst damage or mega healing.

You didn't even need stuns to 3v1 him. If you got 1v3'd by Thrall you just suck or aren't paying attention to him and were occupied with something else, i.e. it wasn't a 1v3.

I'm going to save some time by saying that basically everything in this post is wrong. Not going to bother debating your Raynor prejudice for the 100th time. P.S. I would take Raynor over Valla in a heartbeat.

Jaina and Valla both have big downsides to go along with their upsides. They are both well-balanced heroes. I love Chen (my first hero gold buy) but he is literally the bottom tier hero in the entire game, Blizzard said so themselves.

Sonya does too little damage to be considered an assassin. That's her main problem, she isn't tanky enough to be a Warrior (unless she can whirl through a whole minion wave and that's temporary) and she doesn't put out enough DPS to be damage. One or both needs a buff.

It's not Raynor prejudice, I played a bunch of Raynor both before and after his rework. He wasn't very good before the rework, but he's even worse now. You taking Raynor over Valla means you apparently found out something that all the pro players in this game have yet to find out, since no one ever picks Raynor while Valla is still a staple pick even with the removal of Battle Momentum.

And just because Jaina and Valla have weaknesses doesn't mean that they are balanced compared to other ranged assassins. They are much better than the other ranged assassins, especially Raynor. They are balanced in their own right in that they don't have both damage, survivability and mobility or something, but that doesn't stop them from not being top tier.

Sonya is tankier than your average assassin so dealing less damage on her is fine. Her damage is reasonably good, if you go full slam build that thing hurts quite hard and it semi-AoE's. She can't solo tank, she will always be picked as damage so what's the point of labeling her as a warrior?

And Chen wasn't said to be bottom tier by Blizzard. They said he had the lowest win rate in ONE of the modes and would buff him because of it. Win rate doesn't always correlate with tiers. Tassadar and Illidan have a win rate below 50% but I doubt anyone would argue that they are not top tier heroes. Chen isn't that good, but most other warriors are even worse, so he got that going for him. That statement by Blizzard was also before the Stitches nerf.

They removed Battle Momentum.

Also, they put the triggerable D on the same tier as some good talents.

No, seriously, thats pretty much all they did. Frostwolf Resilience was nerfed, but the nerf was reverted. Mana was nerfed, but really, mana isn't a problem for any player that plays right. It doesn't take much at all to make a hero go from great to not-so-great.

Triggerable D was always on level 7, and no one ever took it because of Battle Momentum. Until this patch where they put the WF CD reduction talent on 7, 7 was a worthless tier for Thrall after BM was removed.

If you take a heavy Q build, Raynor can assassinate the shit out of people.

I played Valla to level 9 and stopped (back when 10 was the cap). She is a good hero, sure, but she has a weakness for every strength. I'd say she's well balanced. Her ultis in particular are annoying as it's quite easy to counter them. Her Q is often ineffective (admittedly I haven't tried a pure Q build in a long time) and her W is more of a slow attrition of the enemy than a straight gank. She can extend forward to get a kill with Vault but if you do that and get caught out overextended you're dead. Plus, crippling mana problems..

This confirms you have no idea how to play Valla and that's why you don't realize that she's infinitely better than Raynor. There's no such thing as mana problems on Valla, Q is not ineffective but it's not something you should use all the time. That's the reason why you have mana problems, you spam abilities and then wonder why the target isn't dead yet. Valla has a lot of auto attack damage to weave in between multishots, she's one of the highest AA DPS characters in the game without any AA talents. I think only Thrall and Tychus are higher, and I'm sure I don't have to point out the difficulties with AAing on those heroes. She also gets access to Blood for Blood, which is a huge power spike. Her ults are also very good and both are viable. They're not easy to counter, if you mean that you can be stunned out of Strafe, then you should realize that you don't pick Strafe against a comp that locks it down or you wait with using it until everything is on CD. There's nothing to counter RoV. It deals good damage and is a perfect follow up on other stuns.

Valla's only weakness is that she's squishy, which is easily compensated for by Vault.

Honestly, Sylvanas is over Tychus. Valla and Sylvanas are more often than not the first two picks in every HL match I've seen. Jaina has burst, but it's predicated on your ability to stack her passive.

Both her and Valla have incredible range, braindead AoE and on-demand single target burst as well as a superior get away. They keep pressure on a team with very little risk involved. It's really dumb that Sylvanas is like this because she's a specialist who does a better job assassinating than Tychus, Falstad and Raynor, combined with her ability to faceroll forts from 100-0.

Sylvanas' assassination power comes from Envenom+BFB. Her Q really doesn't hit that hard, and the W gives the deception of dealing a shit ton of damage because it spreads. If you want to blow up specifics targets, Sylvanas really isn't better than an Assassin unless you have Envenom and BFB up.

Her survivability is 100% dependent on having enough minions to whirl through to keep her life leech up. Even during this she's only really about on par with a normal tank. Run out of minions, get caught somewhere with no minions, or worst of all get stunnned and kablammo, she's suddenly extremely vulnerable. Plus her damage is nothing to write home about.

I really like her abilities, she flows very nicely, her ultis are cool and useful - she just needs a buff.

Her damage is much higher than that of other tanks. W spam build does a lot of bursty damage since the TLV patch. Leap is a very good heroic. Most Sonya's in competetive don't even use WW during team fights. They rely on their (double) healers to keep them up. That's another thing, every melee except Zeratul will seem shit without having 2 healers to keep them up.

Are you kidding? Valla, Tychus and Jaina are perfect Raynor food. They're made of paper and if caught out of their escapes they're easy to pin down, and you will win the HP war what with your stuns and heal. Yes sometimes they get away, but they get away on 10% and are forced to retreat. Objective accomplished.

Jaina instantly blows up a Raynor, especially since he has no escape. Either way, I don't see why people are talking about 1v1ing anyway. Most 1v1 happens early game, where Raynor sucks even more than he already does, and in late game it's all about team fights where the last thing you want is a Raynor trying to "stunlock" an enemy team member while making everyone else miss their skill shots.

You might be right about that, but competitive representation is all about team combos, not the strength of the actual individual heroes.

A hero not being picked for competitive play =/= bad hero.

Uhm, that really isn't the case at all. Did you ever watch competetive games or are you only watching Asian competetive games? Valla, Sylvanas, Rehgar, Uther, ETC, and so on don't have a 100% pick/ban in competetive because of "combos". They're all just infinitely better than the other counterparts in the same class. Raynor never gets picked because he's bad, especially compared to the other options you have. The only hero which gets picked for "comboing" would be Zeratul.

Raynor is viewed as an introductory hero so he's played by a LOT of newbies and bads. In skilled hands though, he is a COMPLETELY different story. Seriously.

If only skilled hands would actually pick him...

So you're building a subpar spec because you don't like the Q spec (which does much, much more than AA) and are wondering why you find Raynor ineffective?

Rightyho then!

I haven't even bothered with an AA spec anymore since his rework, when I play him I always go the Q build and it really isn't that hot as you people make it out to be. Your entire damage comes from hitting 3 body-blockable narrow skill shot in a row, that displaces on its own so needs constant readjusting. If you can land 3 Q's on a single target, yes, it's pretty scary. But the chances of that actually occuring are minimal, not to mention that your constant displacing is just gonna knock targets out of other people's AoE or skillshots. Also, you don't even have access to this pre-13/16.

P.S: Can we stop talking about 1v1? No one gives a shit about 1v1.

[Mormolyce]

Lol have you played Q Jaina since the changes? At lvl 16 her Q will do ~450 damage (~1/5th of Raynor's health) and have a 2 seconds cd with damn near a screen length in range. Don't even get me started on Icy Veins or Ele; with Icy Veins up her Q has less than a 1 second CD and if my Jaina blows everything on a Raynor he can die outside of his Q range in probably 3 seconds.

Claims Raynor's Q is easy to dodge, fears Jaina's Q...

We're just arguing in circles here, Raynor isn't bad, if you thought that after playing him then you were a bad Raynor. The end.

P.S. My Valla was level 9 before the levels got extended to 20. Would've hit 10 easily but I moved on to more fun heroes.

[Lesane]

Claims Raynor's Q is easy to dodge, fears Jaina's Q...

We're just arguing in circles here, Raynor isn't bad, if you thought that after playing him then you were a bad Raynor. The end.

P.S. My Valla was level 9 before the levels got extended to 20. Would've hit 10 easily but I moved on to more fun heroes.

Leveling a hero doesn't mean a lot. I've seen plenty of players with master skins still not being able to build the hero they play correctly. It just means you have a decent amount of games, that doesn't raise your understanding of the hero if you don't know how to play it and think the way you play it is how you're supposed to play it. If you reached level 9 on Valla and still talk about mana problems, then it's obvious that this is at play here.

[Pennoyer]

He can do fairly good damage, but the issue is that he needs to get AAs off and hit his narrow Qs (which knocks enemies out of his attack range). Better dps heroes have larger AOEs that can hit a lot of heroes or have some other mechanisms that let them dps without having to constantly reposition to get in range of enemies just to get damage done.

If a team is controlling the fight really well and creates isolated, stationary targets for Raynor, then he can excel. However, he's not particularly good in your average team fight. I'd say he's definitely the worst or second worst (Nova) of all assassin heroes and specialists that can act as assassins like Sylvanas.

[Hand Banana]

Claims Raynor's Q is easy to dodge, fears Jaina's Q...

We're just arguing in circles here, Raynor isn't bad, if you thought that after playing him then you were a bad Raynor. The end.

P.S. My Valla was level 9 before the levels got extended to 20. Would've hit 10 easily but I moved on to more fun heroes.

Jaina applies a slow so dodging it is harder.

My Raynor is lvl 6; got him to 5 before the rework then played him 3 times after (2 Q specced). Just nothing special really. Whether or not he is good isn't even relevant for me much anymore; he is just extremely un-fun. Assassin's in general are fun as hell to play; Illy and Jaina are so much fun to play in Quick Matches because one can carry fights and 3v1 bad people and the other can outright kill 5 people in 5 seconds without cc or focus. Raynor just stands there and Q's something. He isn't "bad" per-say, but there are at least 4 assassin's who are better and more fun so I don't see his point.

[BatteredRose]

Not at all. Raynor is pretty good. I kinda felt the same way about both him and Valla, but once I got some practice in with them, I realized they're both capable of pulling off some skilled combos.

[bigbleach]

Try not to have that LoL mentality. Every champion in HoTs is viable. I've played every champion, except for lost vikings, and have found that every champion can do very well with a little understanding and a decent build. There are tons of champions in LoL that are not viable unless you are just a god at that champion, and even then you could just pick a higher skill cap champ. Raynor doesn't play like an assassin, but more like a damage support/tank lol? Its weird, like sonya has the damage of an assassin and is not very durable but is labeled warrior. Some people will give you flak about raynor for one simple reason... In that 40 dollar pack to get you into the beta, raynor is played by new players more often than any other champion and they play him badly and that places a bad taste in everybody's mouth about raynor. A good raynor can be a bitch to deal with in lane and in team fights. If you like him bud, play him. I liked him a lot when I started, hes fun. Try other champs though, most of them are fun as hell

[Drunter]

Why is this still a thing? As most have pointed out, the kit that Raynor provides is vastly inferior to other ranged chars. Raynor is about as basic as pumpkin spice season.

[anikibilly]

Blunt yet effective. He is one of the best DPS (in term of dishing out damage only).
Raynor is my fav too.

[Eleccybubb]

Tbh just like whatever hero you want at the end of the day. Also Raynor is my 2nd favourite hero alongside Vikings and Valla. Raynor does have the kit there to be effective but I personally think he is the perfect hero for beginners alongside Valla.

[Deleted]

I haven't seen a raynor in so long now.

[Eleccybubb]

I haven't seen a raynor in so long now.

I play it on occasion but mostly atm im trying to get to grips with The Lost Vikings since I need to learn how to micro manage em a bit better.

[Nythiz]

Why is this still a thing? As most have pointed out, the kit that Raynor provides is vastly inferior to other ranged chars. Raynor is about as basic as pumpkin spice season.

His kit is basic, not inferior.
In the worst case he can be called sub-optimal for premade teams as he doesn't have much that combos well with others.

Raynor can do exceptionally well if you treat him like the ranged AD he is. He has immensely strong auto attack and his huge heal can make him a very hard target to pick. In a premade team I think there are better options, but that doesn't make Raynor bad at all.
For a newcomer he is quite easy to learn, yet can be very effective at higher skill levels too. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that HIS Q IS NOT A DAMAGE ABILITY. This is the main thing new players miss, which makes raynor seem like a noobtool. They use Q offensively and then it screws up everything for everyone. Raynor is all about the W and auto attacks.

[Keile]

His kit is basic... I wouldn't just call it inferior though.

Raynor can do exceptionally well if you treat him like the ranged AD he is. He has immensely strong auto attack and his huge heal can make him a very hard target to pick. In a premade team I think there are better options, but that doesn't make Raynor bad at all.
For a newcomer he is quite easy to learn, yet can be very effective at higher skill levels too. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that HIS Q IS NOT A DAMAGE ABILITY. This is the main thing new players miss, which makes raynor seem like a noobtool. They use Q offensively and then it screws up everything for everyone. Raynor is all about the W and auto attacks.

Q is for finishing a target who is an inch from death, or for the knockback (to save you or someone else).

[Lesane]

I haven't seen a raynor in so long now.

Probably because he sucks and you moved up in MMR so nobody bothers with him anymore.

His kit is basic, not inferior.
In the worst case he can be called sub-optimal for premade teams as he doesn't have much that combos well with others.

Raynor can do exceptionally well if you treat him like the ranged AD he is. He has immensely strong auto attack and his huge heal can make him a very hard target to pick. In a premade team I think there are better options, but that doesn't make Raynor bad at all.
For a newcomer he is quite easy to learn, yet can be very effective at higher skill levels too. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that HIS Q IS NOT A DAMAGE ABILITY. This is the main thing new players miss, which makes raynor seem like a noobtool. They use Q offensively and then it screws up everything for everyone. Raynor is all about the W and auto attacks.

He does less AA damage than a W build Valla and Valla can actually use her damage skills and has an actual mobility spell. Also, Imposing Presence completely shuts down AA based damage.

[Keile]

Probably because he sucks and you moved up in MMR so nobody bothers with him anymore.



He does less AA damage than a W build Valla and Valla can actually use her damage skills and has an actual mobility spell. Also, Imposing Presence completely shuts down AA based damage.

Raynor just doesn't do the AA he used to....I miss Searing Attacks

[Lesane]

Raynor just doesn't do the AA he used to....I miss Searing Attacks

Yeah I still don't understand why they nerfed his AA and instead pigeonholed him into a Q build. If they want that character to be noob friendly, the last thing they need is forcing Q builds.