Fury Warrior T18 Bonus Analysis: aka What's wrong with 4p

[Archimtiros]

2P Bonus: While your Bloodsurge is active, your Wild Strike critical strike chance is increased by 15% and Wild Strike critical strike damage is increased by 15%.

Is very similar to a repeated suggestion for a Bloodsurge change aimed to fix its rage capping problems. While this set bonus doesn't fix that issue, it doesn't add any either. It is slightly devalued on AoE but Bloodsurge can easily be used in both a multi-target rotation and sub-20% since it is only on proc and free.

The only downside here is that Fury's dps is already heavily influenced on proc luck. How many Enrage procs you get, how many Sudden Death, and how many Bloodsurge can have lead to an extreme variance on DPS. Putting a bonus on a luck based proc isn't conductive to helping that in the least, and will only widen the gap between who got more Bloodsurge procs. Unfortunately that is Fury for the foreseeable future.


4P Bonus: Your Wild Strike critical strikes reduce the cooldown of your Recklessness by 20 sec. (this is very likely an error and intended to be 2 sec, lest they intend for us to be Recklessness machines, but who knows)

Unfortunately this does have negative impacts on the spec, mostly due to Haste and rotational interaction.

• Wild Strike negatively interacts with Haste, since it's GCD is not compressed as the normal GCD is.
• It pushes the player into Furious Strikes. Doubling the amount of Wild Strike usage massively imbalances the 4p effectiveness based on whether or not the talent is used. Additionally, it doubles the negative interaction from Haste, leading to even more GCD waste/overlap.
• The T18 Warrior trinket Fury effect compounds the overlap as it increases Haste by a significant amount.
• Wild Strike is directly replaced by Execute sub 20%, leading the player to either not make use of this bonus, not not use Execute while attempting to reduce the cooldown of Recklessness.
• Wild Strike is not used in the AoE rotation, severely limiting the 4p effectiveness, lest the player use it to "gamble" crits for an extra Recklessness.
• The bonus devalues the Anger Management talent.
• Somewhat devalues Critical Strike (Fury primary stat) due to increased emphasis on Wild Strike and Recklessness.

Suggestion
The bonus is fine, but change the trigger to:

• Bloodsurge: Which would make the bonus very similar to the 2p and likely put too much emphasis on one RNG effect.
• Bloodthirst: Keeping in mind potential spam problems from Unquenchable Thirst.
• Raging Blow: Tweak effect accordingly for less ability use, but would keep Crit as a primary stat.
• Whirlwind: So that it reduces the cooldown along with Wild Strike.

Any of these triggers would benefit both Single Target and AoE rotations, as well as the sub-20% Execute phase. Furious Strikes value will no longer be inflated which will negate issues from Haste interaction.





Comments are welcome, please no suggestions on how the bonus effects could be completely changed from current, as that is not the subject of this thread. The intent is identify small changes that retain the concept but fix the issues presented.

[nenwavriana]

RB seems like the most talent-neutral option.

BT would probably be fine provided it (sigh) continues to hit like a dull spoon. At least until collision comes along with a sim showing that 4pc+UQT is 300 dps ahead over 100k fights and I spend the period from 6.2 to the next expansion punching myself in the dick.

[Murlocbait]

What about auto-attack crits activating it instead? It seems like the issue is that if you attach it to any particular button, it then alters the way we look at that button within the rotation. So couldn't it just NOT be attached to a button and instead work off AA crits? Keeps crit as focus for spec, rewards haste (haste does speed up auto-attacks, right? or am i thinking out my ass), and doesn't interact with talents at all. There'd be an issue with SMF vs TG, but they could just alter it slightly, such as "Your auto-attack critical strikes reduce the cooldown of Recklessness by 10 seconds for Single-Minded Fury or 15 seconds for Titan's Grip" (let's be honest, it won't go live as 20).

Just spitballing.

[Deleted]

They'll probably change it anyway, it's really broken with furious strikes and a decent %age of crit (we could reach like 40-45% buffed), you could have a reck every 30 seconds or something, also makes the warrior gameplay really stupid since using any spell but bloodthirst and wild strikes seems to be a loss, the only exception may be execute during the execute phase(i doubt spamming wild strikes is better since execute crits already reach over 300k easily)

I don't really like tier bonus changing the gameplay completly, fury was already kinda dull after the revamp, would be really a shame to turn the gameplay in a kind of frost dk hurr durr 3 buttons spam

[G-Seven]

Less RNG the better, so I would vote for BT and limit triggering the bonus to once per 5-10s. A 5-10s cap on the trigger may discourage UQT spam.

Did I mention less RNG the better, because I feel like that bears repeating...over and over.

[Felroar]

I think a good question is, what will the actual reduction be? No way it can go live as 20 seconds, as you'd end up getting your recklessness off CD before your first one even ends, or at least it'd have a very short cooldown. Just 3 crits would take off an entire minute.

[Archimtiros]

The amount is kind of irrelevant, I'm focused on the function less so than the balance.

[Kumqatninja]

I hope these are just placeholders. I already hate wild strike enough... having both tier sets tied to WS, will really make this tier aggravating.

[Archimtiros]

Placeholders? No, too much work goes into these kinds of things for that. Final iteration? Not necessarily.

Also it seems the effect is indeed supposed to be 20 seconds, or there was a major error in the spell data.


Courtesy of Collision's digging.

[Deleted]

32% crit chance raid buffed
Double Thunderlord proc goes up to 43%
Recklessness pushes it to 73%
2 set pushes Wildstrike to 88%

What happens if on the pull you get a Bloodsurge proc? You're gonna spend that shit pronto - but what happens if you get it again? Shit son that's 2 more you've gotta spend... But with 88% crit chance (85% on bosses I suppose) you're quite likely going to get the majority of these as crits.




I cannot wait for someone to figure out that UnQ is better because it gives you an increase chance to get Bloodsurge procs, coupled with Raging Blow hitting like a piece of shit and us no longer using the previous tier making it even less useless and er... Furious Strikes being basically mandatory with the new tier set.

Wow this class is going to have the BEST rotation ever

[Celarent]

Unfortunately, Arch, I don't think there's intent for an exciting and effective change to the Fury rotation, but instead show who's boss. Hope I'm wrong, fear I'm not.

Anyway, since Fury is always at risk for valuing Crit too much, why not make use of WoD's pseudo-Crit for once and tie the bonus effects to Multistrike? Then broaden the 4-piece to all attacks to prevent distortions in the rotation. Tune accordingly.

2p - While your Bloodsurge is active, your Wild Strike multistrike chance is increased by x% and your Wild Strike multistrike damage is increased by y%.

4p - Your multistrikes reduce the cooldown of your Recklessness by z sec.

If it's a sin to neglect the attuned secondary, keep assignment to Crit with above mechanics.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, Arch, I don't think there's intent for an exciting and effective change to the Fury rotation, but instead show who's boss. Hope I'm wrong, fear I'm not.

Anyway, since Fury is always at risk for valuing Crit too much, why not make use of WoD's pseudo-Crit for once and tie the bonus effects to Multistrike? Then broaden the 4-piece to all attacks to prevent distortions in the rotation. Tune accordingly.

2p - While your Bloodsurge is active, your Wild Strike multistrike chance is increased by x% and your Wild Strike multistrike damage is increased by y%.

4p - Your multistrikes reduce the cooldown of your Recklessness by z sec.

If it's a sin to neglect the attuned secondary, keep assignment to Crit with above mechanics.

This would cause a conflict between Mastery and Multistrike being better, however it'd have great synergy with the on-use trin... nevermind wrong tier. :x

[Celarent]

Fair enough, hence my last line.

Any particular reason to influence gearing behavior? Seems like whichever way you go, there, something feels forced. Can both bonuses be set to flat damage increase/proc rates?

[Archimtiros]

Unfortunately, Arch, I don't think there's intent for an exciting and effective change to the Fury rotation, but instead show who's boss. Hope I'm wrong, fear I'm not.

I'm absolutely certain there isn't any intent to add "exciting or effective" changes for Fury, hence why I didn't suggest any. The problems I've identified, as well as solutions are relatively simple in the grand scheme for precisely that reason.

- - - Updated - - -

Fair enough, hence my last line.

Any particular reason to influence gearing behavior? Seems like whichever way you go, there, something feels forced. Can both bonuses be set to flat damage increase/proc rates?

Influencing gearing behavior (by which I assume you mean Stat weights) isn't a real concern to be honest. There is no effective gameplay difference if you end up going for Crit over Multistrike or Mastery over Crit. Nothing is really lost or gained.

The only time it can be a detriment is if one of the stats becomes devalued to the point where it is absolutely worthless, which isn't happening anyway. I only bring up the shift of stats because it has a noticeable affect on our rotation. Crit is billed as the Warrior stat, and I believe it should continue to do so, because it adds reliability whereas every other stat is a simple damage modifier.

TLDR: Your "best" stat shouldn't be the one with the highest DPS gain, the best stat should be the one that helps gameplay. Shifting that is only detrimental to players.

[Deleted]

I've always liked tier bonuses that amplify the spec, not create it. I know it's boring but it's also the safer option.

[Celarent]

I'm absolutely certain there isn't any intent to add "exciting or effective" changes for Fury, hence why I didn't suggest any. The problems I've identified, as well as solutions are relatively simple in the grand scheme for precisely that reason.

I disagree with that — tier bonuses are a great opportunity to tease out some empowering fun of a rotation, as many past designs have. Current 6.2 PTR looks suspiciously like "Don't like Wild Strike, huh? Hate the sound, huh? Press it all the time to down Archimonde, suckers."

I only bring up the shift of stats because it has a noticeable affect on our rotation.

Hmm. Reads like you think I'm challenging what you said. It's just an open-ended question about what's in the PTR. Tier bonus procs have mimicked secondary mechanics without magnifying them in the past, so that is an option. And I'm not sure if I'd say that Fury players aren't sensitive to the centrality of Critical Strike, even if the value isn't on par with 5.0-5.4.

[Penegal]

I wish it were Raging Blow crits instead of Wild Strike ones. Would've loved the 4p

[Archimtiros]

I disagree with that — tier bonuses are a great opportunity to tease out some empowering fun of a rotation, as many past designs have. Current 6.2 PTR looks suspiciously like "Don't like Wild Strike, huh? Hate the sound, huh? Press it all the time to down Archimonde, suckers."

While true, the bonuses still don't add anything ground breaking. They don't actually change anything about how we would play (using Furious Strikes) without the bonuses except for using Reck more.

As opposed to class bonuses in the past which would alter the rotation in noticeable ways.

Hmm. Reads like you think I'm challenging what you said. It's just an open-ended question about what's in the PTR. Tier bonus procs have mimicked secondary mechanics without magnifying them in the past, so that is an option. And I'm not sure if I'd say that Fury players aren't sensitive to the centrality of Critical Strike, even if the value isn't on par with 5.0-5.4.

I was replying to (what I assumed was) a question regarding my point that the bonus diminished critical strikes value, and the suggestion that it be changed to multistrikes instead.

I think, from a design perspective, that doing anything to subvert the Crit > All for Fury scheme for Fury would be a disservice to the players. One it creates artificial breakpoints where you want so much crit to sustain the rotation, but lots of Mastery or Multistrike to get more damage out of it. For two, it means the stat you are stacking isn't directly benefitting the reliability of the rotation (outside of directly increasing the damage). If they are going to tie our performance to a single stat, making that stat in any way unattractive to use is almost a slap in the face as far as I am concerned.

Not every stat needs to be equal, that isn't to say that some should be complete crap, but we don't need total balance either. In many ways I think it's better when you do not.

[Crazypills]

As opposed to class bonuses in the past which would alter the rotation in noticeable ways.

I actually went back to check out previous set bonuses and had myself a good chuckle, and then refreshed the thread to find this. Swing and a miss here, unfortunately. A vast majority of our set bonuses were "Increase Bloodthirst and Mortal Strike damage by X%" (usually 5 or 10). And then of course there's the absolutely spec changing "Bloodthirst and Mortal strike cost 5 rage less." Straight damage boosts abound, as well as minor rage cost reductions and a few cooldown reductions, as well as the ever-so-rare stacking attack power buff. There were some mildly interesting ones around Cata, like the firelands one which had a chance to spontaneously do a fire attack that was extra damage, or the Mogu one where autoattacks had a chance to cause enrage. Tier 16 is now a talent called Sudden Death. The Dragon Soul one was kinda cool, BT has a chance to apply Colossus Smash. Overall though, none have really been spec changers and none have actually messed with mechanics until now for various reasons. Tier 17 was by far one of the best set bonuses, really.

It should be noted that I'm not defending these set bonuses, cause they're garbage, but hey, at least they're trying now. It could be worse, they could remove wild strikes' haste immunity, that'd be funny!

I'd rather see something like:

2 pc - Blood Surge procs cause your next two Raging Blows to consume a WS proc and deal triple damage.

4 pc - Raging Blow increases the duration of your recklessness by 2 seconds; You may now have up to 4 stacks of Raging Blow

But hey, why find something cool, might as well pay someone at blizz big bucks to create terrible set bonuses.

[Celarent]

While true, the bonuses still don't add anything ground breaking. They don't actually change anything about how we would play (using Furious Strikes) without the bonuses except for using Reck more.

Oh, if we're talking about that, I agree. If Wild Strikes needs anything, it's a sharpened fun factor, and not so much higher priority.

One way you might turn the tables with tier would be other abilities given a very low chance to proc 1 stack of Bloodsurge (2P); and proportionally increase Raging Blow's damage and rage cost when used above, say, 60 rage (4P); intention being that Wild Strikes are generally freebie GCDs to get the bar full, while Raging Blow becomes the first-choice resource dump. Spitballing, but I think that's at least an amusing variation on the basic rotation.

I think, from a design perspective, that doing anything to subvert the Crit > All for Fury scheme for Fury would be a disservice to the players.

I bet you could get away with increasing the value of a second-placer like Multistrike without discouraging gearing/gemming for Crit. All the same, you have a valid point, and since Crit isn't the king it was in Mists, there's technically room to make it better.