Nationalism.

[Deleted]

I was watching a documentary on BBC3 the other night about the Russian extreme nationalist movement and it got me thinking..

What's the point of nationalism? Not specifically targeting the Russian nationalists, but nationalists in general. Why are they so against free movement, different races and religions etc?
One of the most interesting parts I watched involved an interview with an ultranationalist who compared keeping anyone who wasn't white out of Russia to breeding dogs.
He said that 'If the blood of a n*gger and a white person is mixed, their children would be weaker than that of two 'pures' (whites)'. But surely the opposite is true, if we take his metaphor seriously. 'Pedigree' dogs suffer far more health issues than mongrels, live shorter and more miserable lives and are far, far more expensive.
Surely the 'mutt' (Or in this case, mixing races) is better off?

I'm drifting off topic, sorry.
The question I wanted to ask is, does nationalism serve any useful purpose in terms of the human race as a whole? Since countries are just arbitrary lines drawn up and fought over and most people who claim to be nationalist have done exactly nothing to contribute to that country ('WE INVENTED *insert thing here*, WE ARE THE BEST. - no you didn't, someone who happened to have been born in the same geographical area as you invented that thing, what did you contribute to it?), it seems to me that it would be better instead of being nationalist to be globalist. Don't give a shit where you happen to have fallen out of your mother's womb and concentrate instead of furthering humanity as a whole.

Sorry if this post wasn't that articulate, just observing a lot more nationalism recently (UKIP, French National Front, Russian ultranationalists, ISIS etc) and thought 'why?'

[XangXu]

"Culture is not your friend"

Terrance Mkenna said that and I agree with him. The idea that your are part of a "team" or you are somehow different then someone oveseas, just because you happend to be born in a different plot of land is stupid. In fact I would go so far as to say thay nationalism is a hinderance on true human progress.

It's petty and outdated.

[Deleted]

"Culture is not your friend"

Terrance Mkenna said that and I agree with him. The idea that your are part of a "team" or you are somehow different then someone oveseas, just because you happend to be born in a different plot of land is stupid. In fact I would go so far as to say thay nationalism is a hinderance on true human progress.

This is just not true. There's a wide difference even between individual european countries. When you look to countries outside of Europe the cultural differences are massive. Sometimes to the point it won't work to have them introduced here.

[XangXu]

This is just not true.

Explain please.

[Deleted]

Explain please.

How does one explain cultural differences to someone who is seemingly blind to culture?

[Stormdash]

Nationalism is to the make-up of a nation-state as confidence, assertiveness, and self-esteem are to the make-up of a person's psyche. An enabler of great or terrible things, at the mercy of the moral character of the nation or the person respectively.

And like those traits, the worst potential results are an outlier, not the norm. In the ordinary case, they are just necessary for productivity and even self-preservation. What use nationalism? Plenty, if you think your nation is -- if not the best -- at least worth having around. Spend enough time telling yourselves and the rest of the world that you nation is no big deal, it won't be too long until they all believe you. Then what?

[Independent voter]

You can be a non ultra nationalist and be against immigration. I saw this European guy on TV talking about how he didn't like immigration, he was a roofer and roofing work is the kind of work immigrants tend to do. Why would he want all that competition? In his case his anti immigration views were economic. Other people don't like change and immigrants bring change.

Also I've noticed when the economy is good, people don't care about immigration. When it's bad, immigration is suddenly a huge issue.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If it's nationalism predicated on a group of ideas rather than race, religion, sex or Orientarion sure. Provided that nations membership is based on individuals participating to look out for each other in their efforts for their society as a whole.

However, unfortunately now much like communism or capitalism or any other ideaology or social trappings it's useally vulnerable to the same kind of human failure. Because any time you have an idea like nationalism there is that temptation for those citizens to fall asleep or not feel like doing their fair share without looking over their shoulder at what someone else is or isn't doing. People shut off their brains they stop appreciating the process for knowledge or anything else.


Bottom line is that it doesn't work history has proven it.

[Grummgug]

I was watching a documentary on BBC3 the other night about the Russian extreme nationalist movement and it got me thinking..

What's the point of nationalism? Not specifically targeting the Russian nationalists, but nationalists in general. Why are they so against free movement, different races and religions etc?

What's the point of different political parties? Why are political parties so against other ones?

Because power.

1. People assemble into different groups.
2. They then fight each other for power.

There you go.

Why?

Because that's what lifeforms do. They fight each other for power. It can be beneficial to organize into groups to increase your odds of winning. ANY flimsy reason to get lifeforms to organize into groups is a good one by Darwin's standards.

Darwinism is brutal.

1. Group A organizes and supports in each other because they all hate the color of someone's skin, Darwinism validates group A's action as a wild success.
2. Group B doesn't organize around anything good OR bad.
3. Group A and B enter into a conflict.
4. Group A is more likely to win, everything else being equal.

If you want to see extreme examples of this, you should see some experiments in fascism with teenage kids. Its truly frightening how the human mind seems WIRED to adopt fascist ideas if left unchecked. They get militant and highly organized in about two weeks. And its all programmed into the human mind to be highly organized as a survival feature. They just start freely and openly excluding people and discriminating against them. That's why morality is so important...to prevent that.

[XangXu]

How does one explain cultural differences to someone who is seemingly blind to culture?

There is being blind to culture and then there is resisting it. Culture, if you really look at it, is a way for those in power to get you to do what they want without telling you to do it.

Let's teach our children to be homophobic, our culture supports this.

Let's get people to buy products they don't need, our culture supports this.

Let's get an entire nation of people to act like they are "American" or "Canadian" rather then act like an individual.


I love my plot of land. It is beautiful. But the culture is insane. I might even say that it's even too late for me. I think I might be suffering from some sort of cultural insanity, I just don't know how to break free of it.

[Spectral]

I have, over the last few years, become much more likely to identify myself as an American nationalist. I mean this in the sense that I think there's value in having a national identity and having a nation that favors the interest of its citizens over citizens of other nations. That's a relatively mild position relative to some of the racist and xenophobic forms of nationalism that are more commonly heard, but it still is nationalism. Not that my position is not predicated on race in any way - in fact, one of the things that I find fantastic about the United States is its diversity.

In the American context, this means that I'm very much in favor of immigration, but would favor a shift towards selecting immigrants on the basis of the their skill set, education, and willingness to work. We should have many productive immigrants and few unproductive immigrants. There are other implications to the statement, "a nation should privilege its citizens over those from other nations", but immigration policy is probably the most obvious outcome.

[Deleted]

Nationalism is to the make-up of a nation-state as confidence, assertiveness, and self-esteem are to the make-up of a person's psyche. An enabler of great or terrible things, at the mercy of the moral character of the nation or the person respectively.

And like those traits, the worst potential results are an outlier, not the norm. In the ordinary case, they are just necessary for productivity and even self-preservation. What use nationalism? Plenty, if you think your nation is -- if not the best -- at least worth having around. Spend enough time telling yourselves and the rest of the world that you nation is no big deal, it won't be too long until they all believe you. Then what?

This.

I mean, for example, nationalism is needed in several African countries. Instead of civil wars between tribes and different religious groups people could band together as Congolese or Somalians and create a prosperous country which protects the welfare of all its citizens.

Then you have countries like Sweden that are developed enough not to need nationalism to prosper, you already have a fairly unified population simply because nationalism have developed a culture where Swedes care for eachother naturally.

Basically, it depends. Though extreme nationalism is never good.

[Pull My Finger]

What's the point of nationalism?

Very simply put, it's the anchor of the stupid and fearful.

[Mayhem]

As with every ism it´s good to a certain degree, but can be abused if lead by the wrong people.

[hellhamster]

There is literally nothing wrong with nationalism. You know, as long as one group doesn't murder the other.

Live and let live and so on and so forth.

[Deleted]

There is being blind to culture and then there is resisting it. Culture, if you really look at it, is a way for those in power to get you to do what they want without telling you to do it.

I see no particular explanation here as to how this would make someone born in an entirely different part of the world than me, in an another culture, exactly the same as me.

[Grummgug]

Very simply put, it's the anchor of the stupid and fearful.

Its not stupid. As a darwinian survival tactic it is brilliant. Its just a brutal, nasty life and we want to be better than that.

[Kruncholyo]

"Culture is not your friend"

Terrance Mkenna said that and I agree with him. The idea that your are part of a "team" or you are somehow different then someone oveseas, just because you happend to be born in a different plot of land is stupid. In fact I would go so far as to say thay nationalism is a hinderance on true human progress.

It's petty and outdated.

Terrance McKenna is clearly an imbecile.
Cultures are different as they produce people with different values and ways of living. Some are barbaric and backwards, like the tribalistic and paternalistic types you see in North Africa and Southwest Asia. Some are more tolerant and enlightened, like northern Europe, Singapore, Japan.

The naive and stupid belief that everyone is the same should be stamped out.

[XangXu]

Looking passed nationalism is a little bit like starting from square ome again. It's touch to think about it.


Right now it's a god damned freight train rushing at full speed to... some place... I think off a cliff but...

[Doctor Amadeus]

Its not stupid. As a darwinian survival tactic it is brilliant. Its just a brutal, nasty life and we want to be better than that.

No he is right it's a delusion typically shared by those who like to romantasize reality. Or watches too much fantasy.