would you stop playing ret if emp seals was significantly better in t18

[Urioh]

Emp Seals is really fun for me. Idk why but, I really like seal twisting. If it does end up being the better talent choice im going to have a blast

Also im all for the seals themselves doing damage when activated. But im not sure how you would go about implementing something like that. Maybe if Liadrin's Righteousness also used something like holy wrath when activated that did increased damage to any target affected by Censure. Maraad's Truth could cast some pulsing aoe that applied censure to every target within 8-10 yards of you.

[Raqubor]

Emp Seals is really fun for me. Idk why but, I really like seal twisting. If it does end up being the better talent choice im going to have a blast

Also im all for the seals themselves doing damage when activated. But im not sure how you would go about implementing something like that. Maybe if Liadrin's Righteousness also used something like holy wrath when activated that did increased damage to any target affected by Censure. Maraad's Truth could cast some pulsing aoe that applied censure to every target within 8-10 yards of you.

I also play with EmpS and I love it, puts some thought in to the button mashing style of Ret. If you don't keep up the buffs, you fail and to me 15% haste makes my rotation much more fluid.

[Reghame]

I also play with EmpS and I love it, puts some thought in to the button mashing style of Ret. If you don't keep up the buffs, you fail and to me 15% haste makes my rotation much more fluid.

its really the question of if you like more haste or not. as for the thought of using EMP seals there is not much. you simply just replace a shitter filler if the buff is going to fall out soon or use an empty GCD for the switch.

The reason some people dis like the talent is either because either the buff is hard to notice or simply really annoying because you have to keep it up so often, Or that to switch you are using an ability ( if we can call seals that at all ) that does nothing for you, then use another one just to gain a short time buff.

[Manabomb]

Yes, unless they made seals vastly more interesting. As it stands EmpS is nothing more than a substantially more annoying Inquisition replacement. If they made seals or judging different seals produce different effects like they used to I'd be more inclined to use it. Funny thing is they took away stance dancing from Warriors by removing the stance requirements, yet they then readded that general idea back to Ret with EmpS.

Yeah, because TV doing more damage and the t16 4 set we got as a proc doing even more damage after FV is soooooo intuitive and fun guys. It's just, like totally tubular in terms of mechanics.

Stop kidding yourself, all the level 100 paladin talents are dry and boring. Emp seals is just a flavor of boring you detest for whatever personal reason. Also, comparing emp seals to inq, this guy, fucking this guy.

[Deleted]

all the level 100 paladin talents are dry and boring. .

I wouldn't describe them as boring compared to many other classes. Quite a few classes/specs have level 100 talents that don't really have any interactivity at all in combat. I would describe our talents as unsatisfactory, but I think that's largely because I was very happy with the general way Paladins worked at the end of MoP (tier bonuses aside).

[Raqubor]

I wouldn't describe them as boring compared to many other classes. Quite a few classes/specs have level 100 talents that don't really have any interactivity at all in combat. I would describe our talents as unsatisfactory, but I think that's largely because I was very happy with the general way Paladins worked at the end of MoP (tier bonuses aside).

Seraphim is also a buff you have to keep up every 30 seconds and I'd say it does less than EmpS. It also removes your weapon mog for a light hammer which I really don't like. FV is a passive talent, couldn't get more boring than that. The animation is nice, but that's it.

EmpS could be imprived visually. I would rather have color coded high res concentric circles for the buff rather than the big low res circle with icons.

[Deleted]

FV is a passive talent, couldn't get more boring than that. .

Well, it's described as passive but, again, I would argue that it isn't really because it changes your play. Compared to the effects of quite a few level 100 talents which literally just buff some of your abilities without affecting your play in any way whatsoever. It doesn't do much, granted. Which talents do you like, as a matter of interest?

[Matt0193]

Stop kidding yourself, all the level 100 paladin talents are dry and boring. Emp seals is just a flavor of boring you detest for whatever personal reason. Also, comparing emp seals to inq, this guy, fucking this guy.

Both EmpS and Inq are activated buffs that are required to be maintained through using resources (HP for Inq, 2x GCDs for Seal switching for EmpS). Both are required to be maintained for optimum damage output. The only differences between the two are ramp up time and different resource costs. The end effect is the same, so yes, they are similar in functionality.

And yes, FV is boring. I'm not saying that it's a good talent. Personally the only interesting talent on the bottom row is Seraphim and even then it's still not ideal. But I dislike seal twisting as it stands because it's so fucking basic. If Seal twisting was engaging, as in seals interacted or judgment effects returned, without using this talent and the talent reinforced that while giving it a fair benefit then great and I'd probably be interested in using it. As it stands you can macro EmpS, you can't macro Sera or FV as accurately due to the RNG procs changing priority from one use to the next. EmpS exists outside of the priority, you just need to find 2 gcds to make sure you maintain Truth and Righteousness.

[threads]

EmpS is annoying, seraphim being 5 hp is annoying. Atleast FV buffs storm and has the benefit of being slightly ranged.

[tuesday the paladin]

It's really not too bad since seals are considered stances now.

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:1]Seal of Righteousness; [stance:2]Seal of Truth

Add in some simple weak auras to watch their duration, and it's honestly easier to have perfect uptime on EmpSeals than it is with Seraphim.

[Deleted]

Seriously? Do you even play ret?
Hand of Light- the only semi-passive damage source we have isn't doing more than maybe 30%-35% of our damage...
Compare that to Combat Rogues that do 70%-80% of their damage with blade flurry and poisons?

If you're thinking of procs then you should really take another look at the way damage is delt now...

Some clearly dont get what im talking about... but as always, time will prove me right, like it did when i argued that paladins are shit and will be even worse 6months ago... and Huntingbear was arguing how nice and good they are...

Does any class have abilities/talents that provide dmg through LESS activity? No, not really... what did snd do to assassination in the past? just passive dmg through att speed at a cost of resources = more dmg for doing less aka maintenance buff! What did rupture mean for combat? same thing! Now the result of the changes is: snd passive for assassination, still has rupture as it gives energy = more activity + more dmg! What does snd do to combat that it stayed? More attacks, more energy = more activity and more dmg!

What does seal do for ret? Passively ticks and provides absolutely nothing but dmg pad while having 0 interaction with the player... you cannot consume it, spread it, apply it, you dont get more resources... absolutely nothing gameplay wise! What does seraphim do? Spends a lot of resources for more passive dmg for a short time = less activity for more dmg... so instead of dmg coming from moves you do, dmg comes over 15s from using resources that prevents you from doing it yourself!

EmpS is also horrible... you spend crapload of GCDs and use less actual abilities so your char can passively deal more dmg on its own...

Dmg through passive gameplay... something blizz removed from all (or almost all) classes except paladins, who are getting more of it...
Only class with dot that does nothing but dmg... on top of it having no interaction with the player... only class that gets even more of "dmg through less activity" type of gameplay... only class with 0 synergy between its abilities... only class that relies on set bonuses to fix/change all the bad in the class and whose set bonuses change whole gameplay and forces into 1 spec... only class with proc that you DONT want to use at all (unless forced by mentioned set bonuses) as its tied to worst ability in the book and doesnt even improve/change it in any way whatsoever... only class whose set bonuses are tied to same worst ability the class has...

Im sure you see where im going with it... you might find other classes boring or "passive" like you mentioned rogue... but you couldnt be further from the truth... we have more abilities just because they are tied to CD... as 4 of our abilities could be 1 ability (cs, j, exo, how) as they just do dmg! If rogue had melee range SS that does 100% dmg and best CD, ranged SS that does 75% dmg medium CD, another ranged SS tied to proc that does 60% dmg and has worst CD and another ranged SS used only while some other ability is up that does 125% dmg and has good CD too... would that be better? Its not like you have any decisions to make... you just go from top dmg to bottom based on what CD is up, hopefully never getting to lowest dmg form of SS!

Also... even if blade flurry and poison is the most of their dmg, its not at the cost of activity (well, blade flurry is to some extent with less energy regen while its up... unless some mechanics work in certain way... but nm that now)... poisons are "core" and its all accounted for! Its like saying they need to spend 8 CP to cast poisons for 15s every 30s! Then it would be dmg boost at the cost of activity, as you sacrifice 1.6 finishers just to deal more dmg passively for 15s. That would be promoting less activity for more dmg gameplay that paladins have.

Hand of light actually promotes active gameplay, as 100% of its dmg comes from abilities so it rewards more ability usage(obviously depends on mastery ratings but with same rating... more abilities = more dmg from mastery unlike emps and seraphim that cost you abilities so you deal more dmg from using less of them aka more passive gameplay)

You need to differentiate dmg from passive gameplay and passive dmg! Most of passive dmg comes from active gameplay, as its tied to abilities and things you need to do (even poisons deal more dmg the more abilities you use). You do more = more dmg... and some of our talents are... you do less = more dmg from autoattacks and abilities for a duration, as you get to use less abilities, but each does more... bad design!

If seraphim was 30s(or 1min, no idea) buff with 15s duration(0 HP cost) that for example reduces your GCD by 0.5s... then it would promote more dmg through activity... as you would need to actually press buttons to get that dmg boost and you wouldnt lose any ability usage to do so... and emps are just bad and cannot be salvaged at all

[Alanar]

No. I'd still play. Might take a while to get that hang of it though.

Sealtwisting is one of the things that made me roll a paladin.. there is some skill involved and so far what I have seen is there is a big difference is a good ret aka kiting seal twisting and doing crazy burst well the other 1 kinda dont do much..

[raps]

It's all the same. It simply adds pseudo complexity. If you hit a button that does X damage, or hit a button that gives you Y buff to increase your damage, it all yields that same result: more damage. EmpS is just another thing to get used to, and another button to press. The same goes for Seraphim. Another button to push, and short duration buff to manage.

IMO the biggest annoyance with EmpS is that its tied to a Judgement cast. It makes the rotation feel awkward because you're not just managing the buff/active seal, you're also timing it all around judgements cooldown. If they wanted to make it a more tolerable, then make the buff static while the seal is active, and then make it an x seconds buff once you switch. This reduces it to a single macro or 2 buttons to alternate between, while keeping it on the GCD. This probably still goes against their design for it, and would mean they'd need to re-tune the buffs.

[Viking]

Already stopped. Screw EmpS.