Distants vs Melee : do melee have enough tools to avoid kiting ?

[Cannibalus]

Hi,

I'm not making any affirmations, I'm just asking. I've recently started playing my warrior again, and I'm gearing it. I'm far from an average player with this toon, but I'm on a learning curve, and slowly improving.

I've run several arenas and bgs, and I frankly wonder if we have the tools to really counter kiting from distant damage dealers. I reach that base held by a hunter, he immobilizes me with that kind of ice thing for a few secs, slows me down, uses that thing that makes him jump behind, slows me down, traps, uses that thing that makes him invulnerable, and so on ... am dead.

I know the game is not made for one vs one situations, but these happen more than often, in bgs, or even arena when you're the last survivor. It might be a matter of " skill ", which would be good because I'm doing all I can to improve, and then it's juste a matter of time and training.

Somes mechanics were, from my point of view, necessary years ago, when, as a melee, you reached contact with a caster in example, for sure he was dead. That's absolutly not the case anymore if you reach that mage/warlock/hunter..., but I have the feeling the " escape " mechanics improved, general survivability improved too.

That's why I'm simply asking : when those situations occur, melee vs distant, are our gap closers/anti-slowdown techniques enough, and just a matter of skill, and if so, a high skillcap thing against distant damage dealers, or is it simply a thing I have to accept, against a distant, it is very hard to overwhelm kiting/escape techniques in general (and simply survive the necessary time) ?

You have 2x Charge and a Leap + Stormbolt. Not saying that it's enough given ur skill or the opponent's skill but u can't say that you just don't have anything to close thoses gaps. Oh and defensive stance is bo$$ and you could easily melee the hunter's pet to gain rage while running for the hunter (even tho it looks so hard, when you learn it well it will be reflex).

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Hope you're not talking to a Unholy DK. "Many".
A Death Grip.
A Asphyxiate.

A .. Chain......


Yeah, and they have counters to every one.

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What does Double Trinket have to do with Gap Closers?
And Ranged ROOT? Where? Unless we actually don't spec Asphyxiate we have, but then we lose our ONLY stun. And Chains no Root otherwise, it's a shitty slow.
And our Death Grip can be countered by every ranged nowadays.

DKs - Worst gap closers. Sure we're hard to stun. But we don't compete with gap closers like the rest. Oh and, slow a DK, he'll run like a fool. Nothing against slows, roots and knockbacks. Nothing!

Actually Death's Advance says hi. DK is fine

[Gourmandise]

Quite balanced: Paladin
.

Everyone give a hand for Arancor!
Paladins are perfect <3

I'm happy about where they are too. I feel good but not OP

[Vathius]

Melee gap closers are fine, Ranged gap openers are fine


This entire thread is dancing around the main concern which is hunters are far to powerful at kiting. And their tool kit needs a thorough going over. Its beyond the joke now. Far too many options to escape

[Deleted]

Melee gap closers are fine, Ranged gap openers are fine


This entire thread is dancing around the main concern which is hunters are far to powerful at kiting. And their tool kit needs a thorough going over. Its beyond the joke now. Far too many options to escape

Actually, they're in many cases not. Melees still have MoP levels mobility and gap closers alongside MoP level shutdown abilities while quite a few ranged have lost mobility and cast on the move. Currently melees are insanely strong compared to many (not all) ranged. Hunters for example are outliers, they're not even true ranged since that usually means casters but "distance melees" for that matter.

Seriously the whole thread from the very get go runs off the assumption that melees should be able to avoid "kiting", they shouldn't. Melees aren't supposed to have 100% uptime on their targets unless it's another melee, not even remotely close to it. They do significant damage while they are up and close on their target and often shut down their target while they do so.

This means that casters NEED to be able to keep melees off them for significant ammounts of time to be able to deal similar damage in return. This isn't currently the case for quite a few casters such as elemental shamans and explains their sorry state.

[Zafire]

Hunter is a joke. They have all the strengths of a melee class from range with more escape mechanics than any other class in the game. You can't interrupt them and they can do everything they need to do while moving. That's like all the benefits of being a melee and a caster with none of the disadvantages. The only weakness hunter has right now is their defensive CD's, but even immunity to basically everything for 5 seconds is long enough for the healer to react. I don't really get why it's allowed to go on like this. It's a horrible design.

I agree that outside of druids and hunters, melees seem to have the advantage.

[Kezotar]

Actually Death's Advance says hi. DK is fine

Oh, and that's where you're extremely wrong.
A DK with most comps is "FORCED" to take Asphyxiate. Else a DK sux.

And if you do, you lose Death's Advance. And that silly ability doesn't even remove roots. Only slows.
DK is not fine.

[Christhammer]

Chains of ice should have a 15-20 sec CD, then DKs would be fine.

[Kagthul]

wtf did i just read.

kick is nearly useless?!?!?!?

And using stuns to stop a spellcast is just a serious no-no.

Its on such a short cooldown that you get to use it on basically ever 3rd spellcast (when considering time spent locked out). Yeah, it's garbage.

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Melees basically dominate, there isn't many ranged classes that can keep them off. Only class that could complain might be DKs, rogues, ferals and warriors are night unpeelable and have way to high uptime coupled with an insane ammount of ways to shut casters down.

Lets not forget insane damage to go with nearly 100% uptime. 30+ a global. By the time i get out of their initial stun(s), im already at half HP.

[Deleted]

I haven't played much this exp but from all I hear, aren't melee gap closers and mobility at an almost all time high? Especially given the culling of ranged-CC potential?

[Ealyssa]

Oh god !!! Another thread filled with caster crying about ret being OP at the begging of WolK...

The ret tears are just unbelievable. You can have frost mage being disgustingly OP for 5 years. Warlock at the top of the food chain since BC. Hunter raping the leaderboard.

But no... "Ret paladins touched me where they shouldn't 6 years ago". Casters. Really.

[Theed]

Melee is too dominant without question. Gap closers are part of the problem, cc breaks and incredibly low skillfloor another.

[Kagthul]

Like i said earlier.. the entire premise of thread is ... bad.

Do melee have enough tools to avoid kiting? In most cases yes... and they shouldn't. If they are allowed to completely avoid kiting (their only weakness), then casters have to be able to be totally avoid ever being interrupted or having a spell fail to function.

[Deleted]

Short answer.

No.

Long answer.

Ranged will forever have an advantage because they always have equal or greater areas of damage potencial due to range. Unless you literally have 2 low cooldown gap closers, you are worthless as a class.

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Like i said earlier.. the entire premise of thread is ... bad.

Do melee have enough tools to avoid kiting? In most cases yes... and they shouldn't. If they are allowed to completely avoid kiting (their only weakness), then casters have to be able to be totally avoid ever being interrupted or having a spell fail to function.

Right, this logic is brilliant. So basically every Melee Class should be inately useless?

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I haven't played much this exp but from all I hear, aren't melee gap closers and mobility at an almost all time high? Especially given the culling of ranged-CC potential?

Well, let's look as the ranged CC culling..... oh wait, there was none.

[Riistov]

Melee gap closers are fine, Ranged gap openers are fine


This entire thread is dancing around the main concern which is hunters are far to powerful at kiting. And their tool kit needs a thorough going over. Its beyond the joke now. Far too many options to escape

Sounds like another random BG hero who is getting frustrated in 1v1's against hunters. Hunters have 1 tier 1 comp at the moment (hpal jungle) that can compete with RMD/Godcomp, and even then it's only when said comp makes a huge mistake. Most of the other hunter comps (thug, KFC, Cupid) Have exploitable weaknesses that are easily countered. Hunters are very strong in 1v1 settings yes, but we all know this game is not balanced around 1v1.

Crows/Barrage is about the only thing I would say that needs to take a hit and that's happening next patch.

[zire]

Short answer.

No.

Long answer.

Ranged will forever have an advantage because they always have equal or greater areas of damage potencial due to range. Unless you literally have 2 low cooldown gap closers, you are worthless as a class.

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Right, this logic is brilliant. So basically every Melee Class should be inately useless?

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Well, let's look as the ranged CC culling..... oh wait, there was none.

sry, thats bullshit. there is adiffrence between like 100% uptime and beeing useless - stop that hyperbole.
if melee are on the target, they hurt, therefore they shouldnt be liek 100% sticking on the target. range have the advantage of beeing ranged but they have to CAST to do dmg. atm melee not only have like very high uptime on the target, they also have interrupts and felt one milltion of stuns to interrupt and stop casting (avoiding dmg, or stopping defense heals) while runnign aorund like mad and still have defense cds for the cast a caster can actually do.

what advantage is range when there is actually nearly no range becasue the hammerswing besercer just sits on your back all the time?

iam playing elemental shaman and i can tell you, it is no fun at all. charge -> thunderstorm -> anothertcharge -> root -> range stun> using 3min cd to to root again > fear/jump > using goblin rocket jump (which i cange to to have anothe rtsmall gap opner > oh charge back up again beein charged to while jumped in the air and the root stoips the jump bringed me down .

this is just one example, may not be in that order but everything i have is countered so the melee stays on your back while smashing your head on the ground

i dont know what other caster have lost, but i can tell i cant cast while moving anymore, i cant instant hex anymore (bisde lavaburst dotn hit that hard anymore and tremor is nerfed aswell)

not all ranged are like hunters, u know? some have to catually cast to do dmg and stand still while doing so now.

[Deleted]

sry, thats bullshit. there is adiffrence between like 100% uptime and beeing useless - stop that hyperbole.
if melee are on the target, they hurt, therefore they shouldnt be liek 100% sticking on the target. range have the advantage of beeing ranged but they have to CAST to do dmg. atm melee not only have like very high uptime on the target, they also have interrupts and felt one milltion of stuns to interrupt and stop casting (avoiding dmg, or stopping defense heals) while runnign aorund like mad and still have defense cds for the cast a caster can actually do.

So what you are saying is that melee trade off a 100% uptide of damage potencial for more theoretical damage.

Except that's wrong, because most melee don't do MORE damage than Ranged, and quite the opposite, ranged can usually hit harder, but like you said, need to cast.

But here lies the kicker. You're still attacking from 40 yards away, with greater CC skills, and most interrupts are melee range meaning you always get a good 2-3 casts off to deal damage.

So no, it's not bullshit, because by your own fucking post you prove Range STILL have the advantage.

[Livevil]

Somewhere along the line Blizzard forgot that all the instants they gave caster classes over the years , were to counteract the mobility and interrupts buffs of melee classes.

Then came ability pruning, which was so badly designed and implemented, that saw the removal of all the tools that casters were given to compete against melee whereas all the melee tools were left untouched. So you end up with BC casters vs MoP melees.

[ComputerNerd]

Neither side is too strong overall, just strong examples of both when it comes to mobility.

Somewhere along the line Blizzard forgot that all the instants they gave caster classes over the years , were to counteract the mobility and interrupts buffs of melee classes.

Then came ability pruning, which was so badly designed and implemented, that saw the removal of all the tools that casters were given to compete against melee whereas all the melee tools were left untouched. So you end up with BC casters vs MoP melees.

Plus some outdated mechanics like pushback, when melee suffers no slowing of attacks when taking damage.

[zire]

So what you are saying is that melee trade off a 100% uptide of damage potencial for more theoretical damage.

Except that's wrong, because most melee don't do MORE damage than Ranged, and quite the opposite, ranged can usually hit harder, but like you said, need to cast.

But here lies the kicker. You're still attacking from 40 yards away, with greater CC skills, and most interrupts are melee range meaning you always get a good 2-3 casts off to deal damage.

So no, it's not bullshit, because by your own fucking post you prove Range STILL have the advantage.

sorry, no. to stay at the example of the classi play. a hardcast lightbolt do NOT hit harder then a no effort autohit. and most caster got these main filler hard cast spells which do take more effort then autohits but dont hit hard(er). iam pretty sure i got crit as hard and ahrder from melle abiltietes, then my lavaburst, or a hard to get full stack fulmination.
casts have a cast time and can be interrupted with interrupts, silence, stuns, los, fear, knockbacks, etc. thats their downside. the advantage is range.
melee abilties can only way to be "interrupted" is to gain range. thats their downside (needign meleerange). their advantage is they do high uninterreptable dmg when they are on the target.
what you are just saying is, that it is ok to interrupt and avoid casts (dmg) but in at the same time its not ok to have a few timeframes to avoid melee dmg and actually get cast offs?

really man, i cant remeber the time i could stood there and just cast from 40y range. the exact opposide is happing i need to cast from meleerange most of the time, having all the downside of cast while melle just ran around like stupid smahing the buttons with no downside at all.

some melle downt even need to use their interrupt becasue they are on the target having stuns, fears, spellreflects, cloak, etc. and btw. while try to fake cast i dont do dmg or healing eiter, u know.

[Demsi]

Any TSG, Rogue, DK or Ret comp obliterated Caster cleave.
Stop telling lies please.

did you even play WoW? atleast throughout the whole of cata and mop, pvp, (pve a little bit) was completely dominated by caster/ranged, sure you had warriors in 5.0, 5.1 and 5.4 and rouges, but that was it, casters have been dominant for quite a while now, stop being delusional