Why aren't the ptr rogue buffs a live hotfix.

[GetGrimmed]

warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7

[Athonel]

That's pretty definitive...

[zyZ]

take away the meter padding: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

even then still prolly skewed, dunno if it counts mini bosses like beastlord beasts, operator man-at-arms, primal elementalist, etc

[KiwifruitOCE]

Because we are rogues.

If we were hunters, it would be a hotfix.

[Fiska]

Blizzard is more concerned about class balance at the start of tiers. Rogues weren't this bad when BRF came out. BM and MM, on the other hand, were. The dps charts you're seeing atm doesn't give you a representation of class balance at the start of BRF. What you're looking at is the farm stage of BRF. The charts are dominated by guilds who have BRF on farm, and who are wearing up to ilvl 700. Even on Normal mode this is the case. Blizzard aren't that worried about balance at that point. If they were, then bringing Rogue dps up for the sake of farm would risk making Rogues overpowered for guilds who are just starting BRF in 655-670 gear.

Blizzard acknowledges that Rogues are underpowered for very high ilvls, and attempt to fix that once HFC comes out.

[Calycia]

Blizzard is more concerned about class balance at the start of tiers. Rogues weren't this bad when BRF came out. BM and MM, on the other hand, were. The dps charts you're seeing atm doesn't give you a representation of class balance at the start of BRF. What you're looking at is the farm stage of BRF. The charts are dominated by guilds who have BRF on farm, and who are wearing up to ilvl 700. Even on Normal mode this is the case. Blizzard aren't that worried about balance at that point. If they were, then bringing Rogue dps up for the sake of farm would risk making Rogues overpowered for guilds who are just starting BRF in 655-670 gear.

Blizzard acknowledges that Rogues are underpowered for very high ilvls, and attempt to fix that once HFC comes out.

I don't necessarily disagree, but my irritation with Blizz this tier is that it was well known that rogues didn't scale well and we'd be in this situation. Rather than start us out in the middle of the pack, they should have put us higher or given us talents that scaled better.

Regarding everything being on farm, I'll acknowledge that, anecdotally, it seems that my meter rankings start to suffer as fights get shorter. Burst classes always jump out ahead, but on progression my rogue seems to catch up as the fight goes on. As fights get shorter and shorter each week, the dps numbers don't have enough time to revert to the mean.

[Symphonic]

They should know that at the start of an expansion, rogues should be tweaked with their bandaid patches of higher numbers, and then as the expansion moves forward, to reduce the buffs. I mean, that is a simple way to fix it, if they know that the problem is scaling. At the end of expansions rogues perform really well.

[zyZ]

obviously i think we should get more damage for being in the trenches as melee and having a complex rotation as sub.
but the fact that guilds needed 3 rogues to get the first few kills of mythic blackhand is good enough for me

[Athonel]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000

This is "the entire length of the teir".

Mages 1, 4, 23
Druid 2, 14
Hunter 3, 5, 12
Monk 6
Priest 7
Shaman 8, 19
DK 9, 24
Rogue 10, 18, 21
Warlock 11, 13, 20
Paladin 15
Warrior 16, 17, 24

Average ranking:
Mage 9.33
Druid 8
Hunter 6.67
Monk 6
Priest 7
Shaman 13.5
DK 16.5
Rogue 16.3
Warlock 14.67
Paladin 15
Warrior 19

Now, obviously, it is not fair or accurate to judge all of these specs in this fashion. The classes with one dps spec can not be quantified nearly as well as those with three. So I'll organize them into three columns for you.

One DPS Spec:
Monk 6
Priest 7
Paladin 15

Two DPS Specs:
Druid 8
Shaman 13.5
DK 16.5

Three DPS Specs:
Hunter 6.67
Mage 9.33
Warlock 14.67
Rogue 16.33
Warrior 19

There are definitely some conclusions we can draw from this information.

1. With the exception of Monks and Ferals, virtually all melee classes are in the middle and bottom. Monk is at the very bottom of the first "quarter", which puts it very close to the middle.
2. Hybrids are performing pretty well.
3. 60% of the non-hybrids (warrior would be a non-hybrid for the purpose of this) specs are below the halfway point of #12.
4. The other 40% of non-hybrids are performing extremely well (4 out of the 6 specs are in the top 5).

[Rosvall]

I guess I can add these here as well:
http://i.imgur.com/KW2BrBi.png

And for raw numbers used
http://i.imgur.com/HfyXHNH.png

This has list is made from taking the 95th percentile of each spec. Then for each class take the spec that has the most dps on each encounter and in the end adding it up.

There's A LOT of caveats though. I'll list some:
* Low sample size for several encounters/spec combos
* F.ex enhancement merged with elemental.
* Due to low sample size, there's people doing special mechanics still within the 95th percentile.
* Since we're using 95th percentile and only kills, we have few dead people. Rogue usually die less than other classes on progress.

[Deleted]

OP is not taking into account, that these are the averages for ALL bosses, since rogue specs have such clearly defined roles, it distorts a stat like that, especially compared to hybrids who don't switch specs. It would be a better comparison if you looked at the 95th precentile for each boss, and took the average, but for the spec that is approperiate for that boss. Of course Combat is going to be weak on Gruul and no one is playing Sub on Maidens.

Edit: I'm not saying Rogue is not in a bad spot, just pointing out that the situation isn't quite as bad as the OP suggests.

[Deleted]

are there any simcraft results for the ptr? Would like to see how assa performs with these buffs in comparison to combat and sub

[Rosvall]

OP is not taking into account, that these are the averages for ALL bosses, since rogue specs have such clearly defined roles, it distorts a stat like that, especially compared to hybrids who don't switch specs. It would be a better comparison if you looked at the 95th precentile for each boss, and took the average, but for the spec that is approperiate for that boss. Of course Combat is going to be weak on Gruul and no one is playing Sub on Maidens.

Edit: I'm not saying Rogue is not in a bad spot, just pointing out that the situation isn't quite as bad as the OP suggests.

Hello, this is exactly what I did in this post:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post33385889

[Fiska]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...sdps×pan=1000

This is "the entire length of the teir".

This is a good example. We can clearly see that the Rogue specs start off high, but slowly decline going forward.

Some Rogues try to gear for both Combat and Subtlety in order to spec switch depending on the fight. I wonder how much of an impact this has.

[Deleted]

Every class buff/nerf wont mean much until people have average HFC citadel gear + their set bonuses. Some classes scale harder than others and the set bonuses don't all have the same values. Same could be said about Archimonde trinkets if they are as good as they sound.

[brok3nh3lix]

So while rogues may have a scaling issue, there is something that commonly gets over looked by people when they see this https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000 from warcraft logs. it is just an average or aggregate generated from the classes percentage on each individual fight, which the scores them selves are generated based against the top performers. This is important, because the top performers tend to be general outlier specs (BM hunter or fire mage for instance) or specs that just do particularly well on that fight due to some mechanic they handle very well (monks on iron maidens). If we look at rogues, with the exception of one fight (i think its kromog), they have at least one spec, usually 2, that are in the upper half of specs. What they dont have is any fights where they are an outlier. This affects the averaging when we look at the overall for the teir. Other classes which do okish on most fights, maybe lower half, but have 1 or 2 fights they really excel at (wind walker for instance), get a boost and push down the averages of other classes from that one or 2 fights. Rogues never get this "benefit".

Does it kinda suck that rogues never get some huge moment to shine and be the outlier, sure, we can debate that. But as a whole, on a fight by fight basis over the course of the raid, rogues are pretty solidly middle to upper middle of the pack. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There will always be classes/specs in the middle or in at the bottom, its a list, unless every one is dead equal, this will always happen. Just because a class is not topping the charts, does not mean its a horrible class or horribly broken in need of major buffs (not saying that rogues may not need some buffs, more so talking to the perception and attitude many players have). In the realm of the top mythic guilds does it come into play? yes, because they will take any advantage they can get to get the kills that much quicker. But they will also do so because of mechanical reasons, like say rogues various non direct dps benefits on some fights.

At the end of the day, what is really important is the delta between classes/specs. There are usually a few outliers, some times it is just across the board and in those situations the classes should be nerfed or buffed. other times, its just how a fight plays to a specs strengths which can be much trickier to deal with, and probably isnt a huge deal. As a whole, once you take out the very small amount of outliers, the deltas are in a very good place across classes right now. even with the outliers in place, the deltas are fairly small.

I would say one of rouges larger issues, is how specialized the specs seem to be, and having a larger need to spec change for optimal performance compared to other classes. the differences in gearing between specs makes this a larger issue as well. A shadow priest for instance, while not a class doing phenomenally well, but in a good spot overall, can change talents based on fight, and the stat weights don't change significantly enough to necessitate whole separate gear sets.

[Fiska]

Arcane and Fire Mages are just as specialized as Combat and Subtlety Rogues, and they will also swap spec between fights. Their numbers are just greater though, so they come out better. But you are right about what you say. I think the argument is that such specialized Rogue specs should probably be competing for outliers on their respective fights, which they don't. And Assassination could become the more allround spec similar to hybrids, but Blizzard keeps holding its AoE back.