"Man and wife" vs. "husband and wife"

[Beery Swine]

Semi-random and somewhat inconsequential gripe I'd like to share and get your views on. Growing up with marriage ceremonies happening left and right all over every TV show and movie the minister or JP would always end it with "I now pronounce you man and wife. You may kiss the bride." Even writing that now I'm starting to realize another thing that bothers me about this, which I'll get to later. Probably just before I turned 9 I went to see the movie Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, which has a wedding at the end, and what does Friar Tuck say? "HUSBAND and wife" plus the kiss bit. Back to our current tradition, the whole "man and wife" thing is kind of like saying "he's his own person and you are his property", like he's not yours but you're his. Do you get what I'm saying? The words seem to indicate that she's his wife but he's not her husband. It seems very one sided to me. Conversely, when you say "husband and wife" there's more symmetry to the arrangement, each party devoting themselves to the other with a sort of honorific title to indicate this. I really don't know why they seem to always say "man" instead of "husband", but it may have at least originally been for misogynistic reasons. I can't think of how to end this paragraph and segue into the next, so smiley.

The second thing that I just thought of while typing is "you may now kiss the bride". It's easy enough to reach the same misogynistic conclusion with this one without me blathering on about it. She's now yours to do with as you wish, she has no agency, etc.

fyi I'm absolutely NOT an SJW aka tumblr feminist despite being called one by a literal nazi in another thread. I loathe and despise that "community" as being both some of the worst examples of humanity and best cautionary tales of group think I've ever come across.

[endersblade]

I can't believe I actually read all of that.

You must REALLY be grasping at straws for attention, eh?

[Adam Jensen]

The second thing that I just thought of while typing is "you may now kiss the bride". It's easy enough to reach the same misogynistic conclusion with this one without me blathering on about it. She's now yours to do with as you wish, she has no agency, etc.

Or it's just a wedding tradition where the couple displays their love for the world to see . . .

[s_bushido]

Is "misogyny" going to become the next "literally?"

Seeing as the man has traditionally been seen as the head of the household (especially with the woman taking his name) it makes sense to me that the phrase might have those connotations. However, I can't imagine that such a simple thing would negate all the reciprocal vows that the couple had been taking/saying to one another up to that point in the ceremony.

Anyway, "man and wife" just sounds better, imo. Less clunky, i guess. I mean...imagine how strange it would sound if someone started a speech/introduction with: "Gentlemen and ladies..." It doesn't roll of the tongue as well.

[Kraenen]

On some root level it's probably true, but probably not the or a major cause of that old fashioned misogynistic mentality. I don't think many people put much thought into the words used (although that might be a problem and a way that hierarchies and dominance continues).

[Dispraise]

This is among the most inane rants I've seen on this forum... today, at least.

Also, "husband" effectively translates as "housedweller", I.E. "the person in this relationship who owns property". You find that terminology... less misogynistic?

[Beery Swine]

I can't believe I actually read all of that.

You must REALLY be grasping at straws for attention, eh?

Just getting my thoughts out there, actually. Tell me something, though: would it be a good idea to ignore your posts in the future or was this just a one-time bullshit post?

Or it's just a wedding tradition where the couple displays their love for the world to see . . .

That seems like just an argument from tradition.

. . . I can't imagine that such a simple thing would negate all the reciprocal vows that the couple had been taking/saying to one another up to that point in the ceremony.

I wasn't saying it did. I said this was kinda nitpicky to begin with.

Anyway, "man and wife" just sounds better, imo. Less clunky, i guess. I mean...imagine how strange it would sound if someone started a speech/introduction with: "Gentlemen and ladies..." It doesn't roll of the tongue as well.

I actually think "husband and wife" sounds better. Also you may just be used to "man and wife", so, had you always heard the other, your current preference might seem strange by comparison. But it's not too important either way.

Also, "husband" effectively translates as "housedweller", I.E. "the person in this relationship who owns property". You find that terminology... less misogynistic?

Eh, language evolves, the meanings of words change. Now "husband" just means "man who is married".

[Deleted]

In Czech Republic we actually say: man and woman - "muž a žena".

[minteK917]

The second thing that I just thought of while typing is "you may now kiss the bride". It's easy enough to reach the same misogynistic conclusion with this one without me blathering on about it. She's now yours to do with as you wish, she has no agency, etc.

I dunno about you, but most marriage now days involves both party to accept. If the bride doesent wanna be kissed, she can just break the weeding, easy enough lol.

[Super Kami Dende]

Is this really a legit thread? or is this just bait. I really can't tell with MMO-C these days. Either way, what does it matter?

[Itisamuh]

I suppose my OCD would make me say husband and wife do go together better, as boyfriend does with girlfriend, man does with woman, boy does with girl, etc. However, I never would have imagined seeing misogyny in it either way, though. If this is a serious thread, I have an easy time seeing why you might have been called a SJW in another thread, no offense.

[Tyrgannus]

Eh, language evolves, the meanings of words change. Now "husband" just means "man who is married".

I find it funny that you admit this here where husband is an archaic holdover but can't admit that stating man is exactly the same type of archaic holdover. Also, he could be her man just as easily as he could be her husband. The words don't imply ownership more or less depending on swapping out the noun. I will give you that there is more symmetry in husband and wife, but I can't help but think you're reading into this a little much

[Independent voter]

Women couldn't vote a 100 years ago, earlier they couldn't own land, couldn't go to Yale because it was all male, etc.

I think we men did own our wives back like two hundred years ago but I'm not sure. They were probably classified the same as our children.

The US has forced gender equality on some nations. Japan is one, we demanded the Japanese give women the right to vote during our occupation. In Afghanistan too. Such fundamental change seems insignificant to us but it's a huge issue in those countries.

[Notshauna]

Anyway, "man and wife" just sounds better, imo. Less clunky, i guess. I mean...imagine how strange it would sound if someone started a speech/introduction with: "Gentlemen and ladies..." It doesn't roll of the tongue as well.

That's learned though. It's just through repetition that we organize things in such a way. And while numerous speaking patterns are undoubtedly more appealing that is largely cultural, read learned, and as such they aren't fair arguments. I don't think "Man and Wife" is the right battle, speaking as a feminist, but it is clearly antiquated and the misgivings are legitimate. I agree it should be Husband and Wife, or Wife and Wife, or Husband and Husband, and so forth but we should be focusing on fighting cultural limitations that say men can't be nurses or women tech specialists, not quirks of language used by individuals.

[Beery Swine]

I dunno about you, but most marriage now days involves both party to accept. If the bride doesent wanna be kissed, she can just break the weeding, easy enough lol.

I'm not talking about how relationships are today, merely pointing out how I think they were based on traditions that we still use.

Is this really a legit thread? or is this just bait. I really can't tell with MMO-C these days. Either way, what does it matter?

Just wasting time, really. If you don't wish to waste yours in this thread, no hard feelings.

- - - Updated - - -

I find it funny that you admit this here where husband is an archaic holdover but can't admit that stating man is exactly the same type of archaic holdover. Also, he could be her man just as easily as he could be her husband. The words don't imply ownership more or less depending on swapping out the noun. I will give you that there is more symmetry in husband and wife, but I can't help but think you're reading into this a little much

I may be, I'm no marriage historian or anything.

Honestly, people, this wasn't meant to spark any sort of polarizing debate, but merely a discussion. Please don't take it as baiting or anything like that. If you think it's worthless, that's fine, just ignore this thread.

[nextormento]

In Spanish we go "husband and woman" (And we do have a word for "wife")
Is it misandry? or just inane interpretation?

[Nachturnal]

/runs after fleeting brain cells.

[Tyrgannus]

IHonestly, people, this wasn't meant to spark any sort of polarizing debate, but merely a discussion. Please don't take it as baiting or anything like that. If you think it's worthless, that's fine, just ignore this thread.

This is MMO-Champ. We're just a bunch of dry tinder hoping for a spark every single post and every single thread.

[Deleted]

It's a ritual, in the same way that chivalry was originally based around men being polite to women (okay it's not JUST that but read up the medieval times) instead of... Y'know just be polite to everyone and don't be a cunt.

I'm pretty sure if you have a problem with it at your own wedding you can specify that what you want the guy to say. There's a lot of stupid traditions and stuff we still do without even realizing. I got told off for wearing a hat in a restaurant once, the only reason I wore it was because I had had a late shower and having really long hair back then, didn't want to have it dripping down my back.

Silly traditions mean very little now days.

[Ryme]

Suscint version: Ancient ceremony uses outdated language; I don't like this.