Subtetly, FW and Vanish timing

[Deleted]

Rerolled from an enhance shaman to Rogue recently, to join a new guild after our last one fell, I think I can play Assa and combat to a good level but Sub leaves me wondering.
When to use Vanish regarding WF uptime? Should I use all of the uptime to spam abilities and make good use of that FW uptime or pool during FW so I can throw a couple Ambushes during Subterfuge and get a good long WF with less abilities?

And yes this is with Subterfuge, with Shadow Focus I should just Vanish+Ambush just as FW is about to fall off, correct?

So let's say I'm on the opener and the FW after Shadowdance is about to fall off in the next 10 or so seconds. Should I start pooling energy DURING the WF and use it just as the WF is about to fall off with Vanish+Ambush for long consistent FW uptime OR should I spam abilities to my fullest during FW and pool energy to Vanish+Ambush AFTER the FW has dropped off?

[Shyrshadi]

Many questions.

So for the opener you only want to vanish and reapply fw if hero is up. Hero will help with regen so it offsets the need to pool. You also hit prep and vanish again right before fw expires the 2nd time (with hero of course) to max uptime while hero is going.

If you DON'T have hero, you'll want to pool before you vanish, and yes you do want to try to get another ambush off before subterfuge is finished to max the uptime. Try to make sure you're not going to have to refresh snd and rupture during fw (not usually possible with multi as high as it is but it's the ideal situation).

As far as during the fight,I run anticipation so I can pool combo points during subterfuge. I'll use maybe one finisher to keep from combo point capping and just try to use as many amb. as possible.

One thing to note is if you have sd coming off cd within 15 seconds of your vanish, wait for dance so you won't waste uptime.

As far as shadow focus I don't use that and probably won't until t18 4pc, but yes that's how you would do it.

[Deleted]

One "cool trick" with Vanish Subterfuged and Energy & CP management is trying to pool to max energy & 7 CPs before Vanishing. That way you can instant Ambush for 2 CPs + 1 from Thieves, ending up at 10 CP, you can then double Eviscerate (or refresh SnD/Rupture if need be, sadly, but you might want to clip them a bit earlier [6s- for Rupture, 10s- for SnD without losing any value] to avoid this case and maximize your FW Eviscerate damages) and cast a second and even a third Ambush thanks to Relentless Strikes (and Subterfuge) in a single Vanish window

TL;DR pool to 110+ and 7 CPs, Vanish, Ambush, Double Eviscerate, Premed, Double Ambush, GG

We're talking best case scenario here, it sometimes won't be possible to get to 7 CPs without delaying FW uptime because of Rupture falling off early or bad SnD refresh timing, but it's still satisfying as hell.

[Shyrshadi]

And while you are vanished don't forget to premed.

[Deleted]

One "cool trick" with Vanish Subterfuged and Energy & CP management is trying to pool to max energy & 7 CPs before Vanishing. That way you can instant Ambush for 2 CPs + 1 from Thieves, ending up at 10 CP, you can then double Eviscerate (or refresh SnD/Rupture if need be, sadly, but you might want to clip them a bit earlier [6s- for Rupture, 10s- for SnD without losing any value] to avoid this case and maximize your FW Eviscerate damages) and cast a second and even a third Ambush right after thanks to double Ruthlesness procs (and Subterfuge ofc) in a single Vanish window

TL;DR pool to 110+ and 7 CPs, Vanish, Ambush, Double Eviscerate, Premed, Double Ambush, GG

We're talking best case scenario here, it sometimes won't be possible to get to 7 CPs without delaying FW uptime because of Rupture falling off early or bad SnD refresh timing, but it's still satisfying as hell.

Well, pooling and all that is pretty basic stuff I feel and indeed it is possible to do this, also you made me realize I'm not using even near the maximum potential of my premed because it actually doesn't add to Anticipation so thanks.
Also Ruthlessness is a combat rogue passive?

So for the opener you only want to vanish and reapply fw if hero is up.

So if I'm on the opener I should NOT Vanish to reapply FW after the debuff runs out after Shadowdance, if hero isn't up? I'm pretty sure I understood it wrong here?

If you DON'T have hero, you'll want to pool before you vanish, and yes you do want to try to get another ambush off before subterfuge is finished to max the uptime. Try to make sure you're not going to have to refresh snd and rupture during fw (not usually possible with multi as high as it is but it's the ideal situation).

I know I want to pool before Vanish in general, but do I want to pool IF FW is up? Or do I keep spamming abilities during FW and then pool energy after FW comes off?
This scenario would only become relevant when using Shadowdance 1st and then Vanish or when using Vanish and then prep Vanish.


I don't feel like I got an answer for my question here so I'll try to say it some other way.
Do I want to:

Shadowdance
Shadowdance ends
Find Weakness (10sec)
Pool energy during Find Weakness and only use abilities to refresh Rupture, SnD and/or to avoid Capping combo points and energy.
Find Weakness 1sec
Vanish->Subterfuge
Ambush
Ambush
Find Weakness (10sec)
Max dmg spam and back to normal rotation

OR

Shadowdance
Shadowdance ends
Find Weakness (10sec)
Spam Backstab + Evi for maximum dps during FW
Find Weakness ends
Start pooling energy to around 120
Vanish->Subterfuge
Ambush
Ambush
Find Weakness (10sec)
Max dmg spam and back to normal rotation

[Shyrshadi]

Sorry, should have explained a few things better.

If you have here on the pole you want to reapply find weakness right before it expires. Like at half a second or so.
If you do not have hero on the pull, you will want to pool before vanishing to reapply.

I pool a little bit during subterfuge to make sure I get the last ambush in, but I can't really think of any circumstances where you will want to pool during find weakness.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically the second one is more like what I do.

[Deleted]

I do pool energy during find weakness. The reason is that so I don't have to delay Vanish for another 3-4 seconds though it's ready.

Is there any calculation or numbers that shows what's better: Pool during Find Weakness or pool afterwards and delay Vanish for 3-4 seconds?

[Deleted]

Also Ruthlessness is a combat rogue passive?

Yeah, I don't even ... FailFish

[Kaite]

Probably talking about Relentless Strikes.

[Deleted]

When you are talking about "pooling"..how long do you pool? I mean..sometimes I find myslef waiting from 20/30E till 110 like before vanish..so several seconds without doing anything..is that the right way or..not?

Do you "pool" CPs (if u dont need to refresh shits) before FW?

[Deleted]

You can try to NOT be at 20/30 energy at this moment, which means not mindlessly spamming BS after getting out of Dance and getting ready for the 110e/7cp Vanish, even under FW, since this energy will be used for Ambushes which is theoretically a DPS gain ... is there a failure in this reasonning ? It feels weird though.

[Deleted]

yeah but if u want to go at 20/30 u have always to pool sooner or later. or using abilities not at GCD but 1.5GCD or such

[Smaxy]

Nothing wrong with BS spam if you have FW active

[Deleted]

Yes with pooling before Vanish I mean pooling to 100+ energy and doing nothing else but refreshing and making sure that I don't waste any CPs.

[Demeia]

Yah, my nub question is how do you make sure to get that last ambush before you are out of stealth and stuck backstabbing? There must be a timer I'm not looking at or is there a weakauras trick?

[Deleted]

Yah, my nub question is how do you make sure to get that last ambush before you are out of stealth and stuck backstabbing? There must be a timer I'm not looking at or is there a weakauras trick?

Make a insanely big timer that pops up and fill the whole screen the last second of Subterfuge (and related)

[Deleted]

asd. indeed. I have an aura (a pretty badass "arc" on the right side of my char) that fills down while subterfuge is up really useful!

[Deleted]

You use your vanish on cooldown with over 10s on your dance cooldown ideally you can use it a bit later ias you wont instantly use dance every time, if its less than 8~ seconds on your dance you want to hold it till after your dance Fw has dropped. During the opener you want to pool your energy as much as possible after your dance has refunded you combo points and then vanish just as the Fw from dance drops and reapply with your double ambush. Premed as soon as you can so the cooldown of it is ticking asap and just repeat with energy pooling until your Fw from the 1st vanish falls off and then repeat with ambushes. Pooling for trinket proccs is big.