I am having issues raid leading IRL Friends

[Zoldor]

Make them better, be a leader. I'm so tired of all of this I'm a great raid lead but I can't deal with player problems. No, you aren't a great leader you are a great strategist. You can assemble the correct strat and communicate it to the group that is about 1/3 of raid leading. The other 2/3 is getting your raiders on the same page, managing them, and inspiring them to be better.

What you need is someone who plays boomkin to talk to her on her level. Some people don't do research at all and when they do they get confused and frustrated. Someone showing her what to do as another boomy would probably change her tune. Really the only fight her dps is going to lead to your end is Blast Furnace on heroic everyone needs to pull weight there and even then it isn't that bad. Each member is different and the game is pretty easy so making someone better isn't very hard if you approach them correctly. Talk to her boyfriend, maybe she just plays because he plays and isn't really that interested in raiding. The best way to handle her is going to be ask what she wants out of raiding and then tell her to achieve that you and her need to get together and look at her rotation and movement. Is she using DBM? Is she paying attention while raiding? Have her download GTFO. DPS numbers don't matter all that much in Normal or Heroic. They make shit easier, but they don't make or break many fights. Maybe she is just awful at boomkin. The issue I imagine is that she just really isn't that into raiding.

Your shit tank is an easy fix. He's raid led, he understands messing up, and it sounds like he and the other tank don't communicate. They should know each others CDs and learn from each other. If he talks to other tank and realizes other tank only uses 1 cd for each breath he'll probably mimic that activity. He's just over panicking and blowing cds he doesn't need. He needs to have faith and trust in his healers. Let him know you've got his back. He's trying to compensate for his failures on his own. Make sure his gear is set up optimally (I'm sure it is, that is an oldschool problem) and let him know hey on those breathes just do one CD and I've got X healer on you solely for that breath don't worry if your health dips we got eyes on you. Make him feel like he can trust his heal team. Communication outside of Raid chat between healers and tanks makes a fight work. Healers should always coordinate CDs (as you know since its the fix that got you leader), and should communicate with the tanks personally through whispers or a separate channel. Keep communication open and ready. Flame breathes are killers on Bender, but so are a lot of other excess damage going into a breath. Your dps don't stack up right for a bomb and tanks each a massive chunk right before a breath and it becomes fatal. Etc.

Look to really raid lead you need to have a goal, all your players need to be on board with this goal, you have to deal with each raider on the individual level, passive aggressive talking in the shadows behavior isn't something you can do and have a healthy raid environment as a leader. You have to handle each person with kid gloves. People hate this because deep inside they don't want to lead. They want to lay out a plan and walk away and just assume its all going to work out and when it doesn't they just want to kick whom they see as a failure and who is the lowest on the buddy-buddy chart. A great leader can mold a player and lead them to water and get their asses to drink. But it all starts with each individual players goals. Also on Darmac just call the spears for a couple attempts and she'll probably start to pick it up. If she is apathetic then let her leave she might be happier not fucking with raiding. Your other tank I think just needs some confidence and trust boosts. Oh, I also removed my wife from a raid I led. Why and How? She couldn't perform and her interest in doing so was waning so I told her to quit and she was happier, she misses it sometimes but knows she doesn't have the interest in a scheduled raid environment. Make the players who are under performing understand that it isn't just them its a team effort and their lack of interest hurts the whole team. make the decision seem like theirs, because really it is. You can only do so much to make them better but if they aren't interested they'll never be better. Talk to her boyfriend maybe he knows something you don't. I'm going to assume they raid from the same location.

[Tankitbetter]

Make them better, be a leader. I'm so tired of all of this I'm a great raid lead but I can't deal with player problems. No, you aren't a great leader you are a great strategist. You can assemble the correct strat and communicate it to the group that is about 1/3 of raid leading. The other 2/3 is getting your raiders on the same page, managing them, and inspiring them to be better.

What you need is someone who plays boomkin to talk to her on her level. Some people don't do research at all and when they do they get confused and frustrated. Someone showing her what to do as another boomy would probably change her tune. Really the only fight her dps is going to lead to your end is Blast Furnace on heroic everyone needs to pull weight there and even then it isn't that bad. Each member is different and the game is pretty easy so making someone better isn't very hard if you approach them correctly. Talk to her boyfriend, maybe she just plays because he plays and isn't really that interested in raiding. The best way to handle her is going to be ask what she wants out of raiding and then tell her to achieve that you and her need to get together and look at her rotation and movement. Is she using DBM? Is she paying attention while raiding? Have her download GTFO. DPS numbers don't matter all that much in Normal or Heroic. They make shit easier, but they don't make or break many fights. Maybe she is just awful at boomkin. The issue I imagine is that she just really isn't that into raiding.

Your shit tank is an easy fix. He's raid led, he understands messing up, and it sounds like he and the other tank don't communicate. They should know each others CDs and learn from each other. If he talks to other tank and realizes other tank only uses 1 cd for each breath he'll probably mimic that activity. He's just over panicking and blowing cds he doesn't need. He needs to have faith and trust in his healers. Let him know you've got his back. He's trying to compensate for his failures on his own. Make sure his gear is set up optimally (I'm sure it is, that is an oldschool problem) and let him know hey on those breathes just do one CD and I've got X healer on you solely for that breath don't worry if your health dips we got eyes on you. Make him feel like he can trust his heal team. Communication outside of Raid chat between healers and tanks makes a fight work. Healers should always coordinate CDs (as you know since its the fix that got you leader), and should communicate with the tanks personally through whispers or a separate channel. Keep communication open and ready. Flame breathes are killers on Bender, but so are a lot of other excess damage going into a breath. Your dps don't stack up right for a bomb and tanks each a massive chunk right before a breath and it becomes fatal. Etc.

Look to really raid lead you need to have a goal, all your players need to be on board with this goal, you have to deal with each raider on the individual level, passive aggressive talking in the shadows behavior isn't something you can do and have a healthy raid environment as a leader. You have to handle each person with kid gloves. People hate this because deep inside they don't want to lead. They want to lay out a plan and walk away and just assume its all going to work out and when it doesn't they just want to kick whom they see as a failure and who is the lowest on the buddy-buddy chart. A great leader can mold a player and lead them to water and get their asses to drink. But it all starts with each individual players goals. Also on Darmac just call the spears for a couple attempts and she'll probably start to pick it up. If she is apathetic then let her leave she might be happier not fucking with raiding. Your other tank I think just needs some confidence and trust boosts. Oh, I also removed my wife from a raid I led. Why and How? She couldn't perform and her interest in doing so was waning so I told her to quit and she was happier, she misses it sometimes but knows she doesn't have the interest in a scheduled raid environment. Make the players who are under performing understand that it isn't just them its a team effort and their lack of interest hurts the whole team. make the decision seem like theirs, because really it is. You can only do so much to make them better but if they aren't interested they'll never be better. Talk to her boyfriend maybe he knows something you don't. I'm going to assume they raid from the same location.

You make a massive amount of assumptions and many of them are incorrect.

1: She is really in to raiding. She doesn't play "just because her BF does." She uses DBM. She hates GTFO because "It's always screaming at her" - trying to explain why that is a good thing fell on deaf ears and she uninstalled it. I call every single Darmac spear on TS and say "Spears, move" and she still gets hit. I also call patterns on H/F, and she gets stamped. I also call corners on Oregorger, and she gets rolled on. Assumptions are bad, yo.

2: Not all players are mythic quality so when you say "DPS doesn't matter that much" on heroic, you're assuming you can carry a few bad people with really good people. Some of my players could be - and have been - in old heroic/current mythic progression and done exceptionally well. However, not all of them play at that level anymore and not all of them were at that level, ever. I have four raiders whose only experience raiding came when they joined us in Siege.

3: I've never said I'm a great lead, although I can see how that came across on my post because I do think I am a great lead. I've developed tons of players in to top tier players over the course of 10 years. It's not arrogance or bragging - there's no way I could've done it without those players putting forth the time and effort to make themselves better. I taught them to fish and they fucking fished. The druid doesn't want to learn how to fish.

4: I actually really appreciate the advice on the warrior. He's been Pavlov'd in to thinking that healers won't help him because he had bad healers for 3 months. I'll have a talk with him specifically about that and I really think that will help. Much of the responses in this thread have been focused on the druid rather than the warrior and this is really good advice for the warrior.

[Seezer]

It's good you don't judge

It's likely going to be a much nicer version of #2. Players don't start off amazing. It's possible that the druid AND the warrior both just haven't been mentored in to better play. I would rather sit down with them, tell them they're underperforming, and work to improve them.

I'm just scared that the reaction is going to be extremely negative.

Number 2 isn't going to do shit. The druid is just a passive/aggressive mess. I've raided with plenty of people like this over the years. Any anytime they aren't happy they show it by leaving the group, going afk for 15 minutes while everyone waits on them, or they constantly d/c between every pull, and don't respond to anything they don't want to do. So if they want to stand in fire and hold the group back and do 10k dps, they expect the raid to be okay with that. And if the raid isn't okay with it, they'll whisper allies. Trying to get people on their side. Just leave the group and find another guild. You can't make people do anything they don't want to do. And the harder you push, they more they'll crawl into their shell.

- - - Updated - - -

You make a massive amount of assumptions and many of them are incorrect.

1: She is really in to raiding. She doesn't play "just because her BF does." She uses DBM. She hates GTFO because "It's always screaming at her" - trying to explain why that is a good thing fell on deaf ears and she uninstalled it. I call every single Darmac spear on TS and say "Spears, move" and she still gets hit. I also call patterns on H/F, and she gets stamped. I also call corners on Oregorger, and she gets rolled on. Assumptions are bad, yo.

2: Not all players are mythic quality so when you say "DPS doesn't matter that much" on heroic, you're assuming you can carry a few bad people with really good people. Some of my players could be - and have been - in old heroic/current mythic progression and done exceptionally well. However, not all of them play at that level anymore and not all of them were at that level, ever. I have four raiders whose only experience raiding came when they joined us in Siege.

3: I've never said I'm a great lead, although I can see how that came across on my post because I do think I am a great lead. I've developed tons of players in to top tier players over the course of 10 years. It's not arrogance or bragging - there's no way I could've done it without those players putting forth the time and effort to make themselves better. I taught them to fish and they fucking fished. The druid doesn't want to learn how to fish.

4: I actually really appreciate the advice on the warrior. He's been Pavlov'd in to thinking that healers won't help him because he had bad healers for 3 months. I'll have a talk with him specifically about that and I really think that will help. Much of the responses in this thread have been focused on the druid rather than the warrior and this is really good advice for the warrior.

Look. It isn't the fact that "It's always screaming at her.". It's the fact that you suggested GTFO. She will find a problem with almost everything you suggest. Because the problem is her. Not GTFO. Not addons, not the raid, and not her fellow raiders. She is not into raiding. You can't be really in to raiding and get hit by 9 pins. Doesn't happen. Either in her passive/aggressiveness she's purposefully getting pinned, or she just isn't trying. Don't defend it. If you make suggestions to someone on something that can help them improve and they say "No, I can't because it does this". Then they aren't interested. That's part of being passive/aggressive. To be stubborn.

[Zoldor]

Look. It isn't the fact that "It's always screaming at her.". It's the fact that you suggested GTFO. She will find a problem with almost everything you suggest. Because the problem is her. Not GTFO. Not addons, not the raid, and not her fellow raiders. She is not into raiding. You can't be really in to raiding and get hit by 9 pins. Doesn't happen. Either in her passive/aggressiveness she's purposefully getting pinned, or she just isn't trying. Don't defend it. If you make suggestions to someone on something that can help them improve and they say "No, I can't because it does this". Then they aren't interested. That's part of being passive/aggressive. To be stubborn.

This. If she was into raiding like you claim she would actually attempt to be better. If something is yelling at you and you can't figure out that it means move when you actively download an addon that is there to yell at you when to move you aren't fucking trying. That is the exact opposite of trying. The reason I suggested another druid help her is because she isn't going to listen to you. She'll fight you tooth and nail...why? Dunno. It happens. Also, I did assume a lot of shit because you didn't bother to qualify anything other than she dies to shit, doesn't do good dps, and her boyfriend is also in the raid so you have to be nice. Those three things say to me she doesn't have addons, doesn't know what she's doing, or she just doesn't really want to do it at the level required for scheduled raiding in heroic. You've now stated you are doing everything I suggested without knowing all the facts...that pretty much points to one thing...She really isn't that into raiding. She's into hanging out and playing with folks, but not into focusing and executing at a raid level. If you are the worst in the group and do nothing about it and fight everyone at every turn do you really want to be in the group? Maybe class switch her? Or just let her know that its a team thing and she has got to take a step up...but that she can do it, she probably has the skill and could do better. Its about focusing and effort at this point. You've given her the tools. Again last idea is get another boomkin to talk to her.

As to the you don't need dps, that isn't some mystical thing in BRF I just made up. Its real. Gruul and blast are the only real DPS races outside Blackhand. Thogar and Kromog have dps checks, but you only need some good AE classes in the mix to trivialize the dps check. Oregorger is a slight dps check, but its really more about having enough people stay alive coming out of the second roll phase if your dps is low. Even still, the problem isn't your numbers its one bad player, your tank I think is probably good just panicking like you said and I suspected.

[Deleted]

1: She is really in to raiding. She doesn't play "just because her BF does." She uses DBM. She hates GTFO because "It's always screaming at her" - trying to explain why that is a good thing fell on deaf ears and she uninstalled it. I call every single Darmac spear on TS and say "Spears, move" and she still gets hit. I also call patterns on H/F, and she gets stamped. I also call corners on Oregorger, and she gets rolled on. Assumptions are bad, yo.

Have you pointed her at the article that every raider who is struggling with raid awareness should read? http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...acticed-skill/

[Deleted]

Have you pointed her at the article that every raider who is struggling with raid awareness should read? http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...acticed-skill/

Hamlet's article should be "must-read" for any raider - especially those who raid in "friends and family" guilds.
But even if she reads it, is not a guarantee that things will improve. Most likely they won't.

Raiding "seriously" in the environment you've chosen is difficult because the difficulty ramp-up of "progression" will require your players to adapt and be better automatically - and if they don't, they need to improve after your feedback - as a RL you need to have people who can take this without throwing a fit - it's tricky as your guild organisation and dynamic extends to real-life.

Having to be "nice" (i.e. not be able to give constructive advice) to someone because their significant other is also in the raid makes your leadership troubles multiply tenfold. Having that person ignore your feedback because they know they can get away with it is very detrimental to the group progression.

A normal progression guild would just remove such person - however you can't - all you can do is feed her with articles, links and advice and hope for the best.
Personally I wouldn't attempt serious progression with my real life friends, it's just not worth the grief you get and the mountain of work you have to put in.

[Thelxi]

I've been in that situations a few times and there is nothing you can do other than stop raiding with IRL friends. It is a brick wall that you will hit and not get past, so you have to either accept it or move on to other ppl. You sound like you are far more capable of a raider than being in a struggle flex/normal "progression" team, so it might be time to move on. Else just accept that you won't get very far ever with this group of IRL friends.

[l33t]

Actually, you have only two choices here, in my opinion.

1. You do make your IRL friend to learn to tank and just get used to carry his girlfriend;

or 2. You find yourself a new tank and a new damage dealer.

Also, I do believe he's not such a big friend to you if you can't tell him he suck at playing without fearing he will instantly stop being your friend after this.
Progressive raiding with real life friends is hard, yes.

[Tankitbetter]

Actually, you have only two choices here, in my opinion.

1. You do make your IRL friend to learn to tank and just get used to carry his girlfriend;

or 2. You find yourself a new tank and a new damage dealer.

Also, I do believe he's not such a big friend to you if you can't tell him he suck at playing without fearing he will instantly stop being your friend after this.
Progressive raiding with real life friends is hard, yes.

My best friend is not the tank. It's two separate issues - a casual friend (tank) and a healer who is my best friend's girlfriend (druid). Sorry for the confusion.

[l33t]

My best friend is not the tank. It's two separate issues - a casual friend (tank) and a healer who is my best friend's girlfriend (druid). Sorry for the confusion.

Oh well, I guess it is me who should say sorry for not reading right. Sorry!

Then it is even simplier. Get a tank who knows how to play, make your casual tank friend go damage dealer and just get used to carry that boomkin baby.

[Deleted]

There's only two options, you either figure out the underlying issue that makes them be better players fit for your guild. Or you replace them. The sad fact is that most of the time people dont shape up on their issues until they are let go. It's actually amusing how many subpar players ive seen to do so much better in other guilds.

TLDR: It's a game, friendships should not and will not break because of it.

[theburned]

Well you could learn her how to do her opener properly.

comparing our gruul kill with the numbers you have given us, if I went afk after the first 15 seconds of the fight, I would have done roughly 13k dps. (this is assuming dots where removed also.) while I am quite a bit more geared than her, my point is that such a huge part of the boomie dps is in the opener, if she could just do those first 15 seconds properly, she could probably just cast starfire all fight and it'd still be a massive improvement to her current dps. To my experience doing those 15 seconds well is much easier than doing your rotation very properly for 4-5 minutes

[randomnamegenerator16]

Talk to them, force them to listen and try to improve. With that druid you can also talk to her BF so he should also talk with her. With her kind of attitude, I imagine that it's more possible that she will listen to him, not to you.
And if they ignore it, if they don't even try to improve - just kick them out of your raid group without "mercy" if you want to progress. I suspect that you would not be so forgiving to random internet guys and that preferential treatment may cause some problems with other guildies, maybe even causing your raid group to fall apart.

You can of course be okay with it and leave it as it is. However, if your raid group will fall apart, you will be also responsible for this due to your inaction.

[Everlet]

Lets be honest Effective raid leading requires you to be able to take charge, criticize players and kick players when you play with friends you can do these things but then you might loose your friends. There are no tips to solve this the players that don't want to improve and are angered when their failure is noted will be angry and cause drama. Lets imagine your boomkin gets the boot because shes terrible, suddenly she takes her BF with her and shit talks you IRL, so now you have problems in game and your reputation in IRL is damaged. Its not worth insulting people and causing real life issues but that is what you need to do. The solution is to just not raid with them quit the game, find a new guild or create a new hidden account to raid on if you wana play but your friends will be insulted.

just kick them out of your raid group without "mercy" if you want to progress. I suspect that you would not be so forgiving to random internet guys and that preferential treatment may cause some problems with other guildies, maybe even causing your raid group to fall apart.

see thats fine and dandy but then this guy is fucking himself over in IRL over a game he only played because of these people, so this advice is terrible

[cFortyfive]

Don't think I could have a too deep friendship with people acting retarded after any bit of even polite criticism.
That said since you obviously are already dealing with that in real life why do you not just ignore it here as well. It seems obvious that's what you do anyways. Or quit doing it I don't see any other option.

[Deleted]

You make a massive amount of assumptions and many of them are incorrect.

1: She is really in to raiding. She doesn't play "just because her BF does." She uses DBM. She hates GTFO because "It's always screaming at her" - trying to explain why that is a good thing fell on deaf ears and she uninstalled it. I call every single Darmac spear on TS and say "Spears, move" and she still gets hit. I also call patterns on H/F, and she gets stamped. I also call corners on Oregorger, and she gets rolled on. Assumptions are bad, yo.

Lost cause.

Ditch her asap. If she's not willing to download a simple addon that'll literally solve -most- of her problems, she's dead weight. Tell your best friend it's just not acceptable and she's holding everyone back from progressing, which is unfair on the raid as a whole.

If people aren't willing to improve or refuse help that would solve problems for the entire raid group, then remove them. If they're willing to accept criticism, listen to you and slowly work on getting better, then they're worth keeping. Friend or not.

[GarGar]

Keep in mind too, in a casual and friendly environment such as a game, people react much better to criticism in private, and often react badly when it's given publicly. Try helping your friends out in private, and not after a raid when moods might already be sour.

[Tankitbetter]

Boyfriend spoke to her. The explosion was...not good. I'm afraid raiding has cockblocked him for awhile. On the other hand, I think that a conversation with the tank is going to go well.

[Xirrohon]

I raided with some IRL friends for about a year and it was the most awful thing that I ever did! Everything you are going through, I went through. People take their game performance way too seriously and in the end feelings got hurt. Only two people that were in that guild still play the game. One of them is my on/off girlfriend. To this day, she refuses to play with me because she doesnt like losing to me in DPS. Its a bit crazy.

Ide say if you want progression. Then no couples in the guild. Sorry, it rarely if ever ends up well.

[theburned]

Boyfriend spoke to her. The explosion was...not good. I'm afraid raiding has cockblocked him for awhile. On the other hand, I think that a conversation with the tank is going to go well.

as much as I would like to see this conversation, as it must've been entertaining that is going to be quite bad.

I would suggest that you perhaps set serparate raid days, putting up 2 days for normal + hc farm clear, then one day for hc progress -> mythic idk.
for the latter day you tell people it's only for people who actually can pull their weight. While the first 2 days are for shits and giggles.