Healing: The counterpoint of any skill requirement of World of Warcraft PvP.

[Deleted]

The Balance between healing and damage is one that is difficult. Actually, that's incorrect. It is factually EASY to do if you take the merest seconds of time out of your day and think.

Healing in World of Warcraft is not one they took those seconds to think about. And because of that, it runs directly ramshod over every other idea of tactical ability in World of Warcraft and why the PvP in this game is so ruined and without any requirement for talent outside of "Get a healer".

Many of you would think this hyperbole. But have you never seen a BG run entirely on two healers being impossible to kill on the enemy team? Or a Arena game where it is decided entirely by the healer.

This would not be a bad thing, if the support was with it's risks, as all roles and tactics, it should be about weighing the costs with said risks. Healers have no risks. Because they are so strong in relation to damage, even when you control them, interrupt them, hold them down. They still have those few skills designed to bounce back up to 100%.

A revision of this would make more sense. To one where the Healer isn't an unstoppable beacon that controls everything that will ever happen and the entire games focus on taking down.

Shifting more to a support role akin to the medic from TF2, where being a great team-changing tool comes at the cost of personal weakness. The action of this is beautifully twofold. One, it makes Healers less important as direct players in the field, but more important and indeed viable as targets beyond a supreme three man to one ratio requirement. Second, it makes Peeling and defensive CC alot more useful, so the players OTHER than the Healer can decide a fight by doing more than just "Handle the enemy healer"

In short; Healers need a supreme reduction in their PvP surviability. I think this should be done by heals being less effective when self cast Or by a vast reduction in defensive cooldowns for healers, making them more worth time on beating at.

[solarfallz]

For the most part, I agree. However the problem lies with more than just the healers. The overall design of the game and its classes needs to be fixed in order to balance healers. There was once a time (pre-BC) when healers mainly served to DELAY death in PVP, rather than completely stop it. Even in group fights with multiple healers, people still died, and fast. I think this was much more fun for everyone involved.

But this wasn't because heals were bad at the time, no, in fact one flash heal would heal a huge chunk of your hp, like 30%+. The thing is, almost everything had some way to stop or counter it in those days. All direct heals except Holy Shock had a cast time, and there were only 3 hots in the whole game, all dispellable. Likewise, though, most damage was avoidable: melee were much more susceptible to CC, almost all damage spells had a cast time, hunters had a 3 yard deadzone.

In more modern iterations of the game, there is much more unavoidable, constant damage output. This necessitated some degree of constant, unstoppable healing output to counter it. Ever since BC, and especially since Wrath, there's been an unstoppable-ability arms-race. It's led us to our current situation: If you nerf healers in a significant way right now, healers will die without it being their fault. Dying to unavoidable damage that simply out-DPSes your heals, even if you play better than your opponents, is not something that is desirable. There's really no sweet spot between "dying to unstoppable damage bullshit" and "being an immortal god because of unstoppable healing bullshit", because even right now, both of these things are a problem. Even if you removed healers from PVP altogether, with the current design of damage dealers, PVP would still be boring for similar reasons.

Basically what I'm trying to say is: PVP's fucked and it would require major changes to all classes, not just healers, to actually fix it.

[DirtyDotter]

have you never seen a BG run entirely on two healers being impossible to kill on the enemy team? Or a Arena game where it is decided entirely by the healer.

(1) Healing in random bgs is super easy because 90% of the people you face are uncoordinated and don't know what they're doing. It's even funnier in Ashran where as a paladin I can run into a large group of players and holy shock / denounce kill one or two of them and run back out without using very many defensive cds. This doesnt mean healers are gods, it means the dps they're going up against are just bad.

(2) In arena, it doesn't matter how good a healer is if their dps partner(s) suck. If they don't peel at the right times or can't force cooldowns and get kills then the healer is just as worthless.

It is much much easier to tell a good healer apart from a bad one. A bad dps is a little harder to spot because as long as their healer can keep them alive they might still be able to get a kill in deep dampening.

Personally I much prefer playing healer because its bit more engaging. When I play dps I can get away with making some bad plays, on my healer if I make a bad play I know what I did wrong right away and why I lost a match even if the loss comes 2 minutes later in the game.

I absolutely agree with you on all the NS abilities in the game though, except when fighting certain comps that can keep you CC'd for days and NS is the only thing that can save your partners .. that's more a problem with CC though.

I think we can all agree that wow pvp is in a funky state atm and needs some changed mechanically.

[Deleted]

Geared healer + 5 undergeared scrubs + random bg = Live lord.

I do it on my disc priest. I can tank 5 idiots on my own provided they aren't fully epic pvp geared.

[nightfalls]

Usually if the arena's completely decided by the healer (outside of maybe one big cooldown, like SLT, etc. usage) then that means the other team just isn't really that good. Same with a BG with two "impossible to kill" healers, it just means the enemy team's completely uncoordinated.

No healer will be able to survive versus 2 DPS or a DPS and supporting healer without assistance from their partners. Even 2 healers cannot survive at all versus 6 DPS on an enemy RBG team without help from their DPS either.

And edit: Just because you don't see the help from the DPS partners in videos doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Deleted]

Usually if the arena's completely decided by the healer (outside of maybe one big cooldown, like SLT, etc. usage) then that means the other team just isn't really that good. Same with a BG with two "impossible to kill" healers, it just means the enemy team's completely uncoordinated.

No healer will be able to survive versus 2 DPS or a DPS and supporting healer without assistance from their partners. Even 2 healers cannot survive at all versus 6 DPS on an enemy RBG team without help from their DPS either.

And edit: Just because you don't see the help from the DPS partners in videos doesn't mean it isn't there.

Factually incorrect. Please do something other than post lies.

- - - Updated - - -

(2) In arena, it doesn't matter how good a healer is if their dps partner(s) suck. If they don't peel at the right times or can't force cooldowns and get kills then the healer is just as worthless.

It is much much easier to tell a good healer apart from a bad one. A bad dps is a little harder to spot because as long as their healer can keep them alive they might still be able to get a kill in deep dampening.

Personally I much prefer playing healer because its bit more engaging. When I play dps I can get away with making some bad plays, on my healer if I make a bad play I know what I did wrong right away and why I lost a match even if the loss comes 2 minutes later in the game.

Factually incorrect by another person. Healing is so hilariously easy that the skill cap is dramatically low.

[Deleted]

I just love how you decide what is a fact and what are lies. And your argumentation is flawless!

[Deleted]

I just love how you decide what is a fact and what are lies. And your argumentation is flawless!

I don't though. Evidence in this very thread proves them wrong. And Healing and it's difficulty?

Healing in WoW is like DPSing, but your HPS requirement is lower and your spells do much more healing than other things do damage.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the post regarding 1550 experienced dps not being able to kill an X experience healer.
Before I get started I just want to say that based on your replies to other people
its very obvious that you wont believe a word anyone else says and will keep on living
in your little bubble of cluelessness. Your replies are hilarious even, but sad when you
try to take them seriously.

Now to business.
Healing is stronger then dmg ?
Ofcourse, because healers are always outnumbered.
(rbgs = 3heals 6-7dps / 3s =healer + 2 dps / 5s = 2 heals + 3 dps)
SO OBVIOUSLY healing has to be stronger then dmg or a game would end in X seconds.

I rlly dont want to bother saying any more because this thread is nothing more then a waste of time for all who read it.
(BUT obviously I will because I'm shocked)
You really dont know even the basics of wow pvp and that is why you are holding on to the 'healing/support' role from other games.
There is nothing more to it, end of story.

Just in case you are not conviced, (ofcourse I will never convince you, because you are right, healing is retarded OP,
yet at any decent lvl of pvp healers get rekt often and games always end in kills deuh)
if healing is completely braindead overpowered as you are implying, then why do normal/decent players kill anyone and therefore win games?
I mean if healing was like you say it is, then all matches would last until 75% dampening right?
Wow why am I still typing........

If you had actually ever played a healer at any decent skill level of wow pvp then you would realise
how intensely skill based it is, you need to
-constantly focus on EVERYONE their positions, yours, your partners, enemy team
and constantly adjust it (for avoiding cc, getting heals/dispels off, going for cc, ......)
-be aware of all offensive cds left in the enemy team as well as all your own defensives
and all the defensives of your teammates
-be vocal and coordinate your team about them being overextended or being safe to push in,
when they have to use a defensive or when you are using them and they shouldnt
-and those are just basics, besides all that you are also actively contributing to scoring
the kill with the tools you have available like an interrupt/silence/stun/cc/offdamage etc

WHY AM I STILL TYPING ?

Plz dont make a thread like this again, ever.
It makes no sense what so ever to anyone who has the bare minimum
of awareness what pvp actually is in wow.

This opinion of yours is ONLY shared by pve players (maybe) or the kind of pvp players that only play a random bg
and then spam buttons barely knowing what they are doing let alone anyone around them is doing.
When this kind of player (aka 1550 arena exp probably) sits on a healer that might be 2.2exp
and the healer is just trolling him because the dps cant kill him with his tiny game knowledge and skill,
THEN this player gets mad and frustrated and makes a thread on the forums about how OP and braindead healing is
instead of simply realising he has alot/everything to learn and should just go do that.

peace

[Tya]

The Balance between melee and ranged is one that is difficult. Actually, that's incorrect. It is factually EASY to do if you take the merest seconds of time out of your day and think.

Melee in World of Warcraft is not one they took those seconds to think about. And because of that, it runs directly ramshod over every other idea of tactical ability in World of Warcraft and why the PvP in this game is so ruined and without any requirement for talent outside of "Get a melee".

Many of you would think this hyperbole. But have you never seen a BG run entirely on two melees being impossible to kill on the enemy team? Or a Arena game where it is decided entirely by melee.

This would not be a bad thing, if the melee was with it's risks, as all roles and tactics, it should be about weighing the costs with said risks. melees have no risks. Because they are so strong in relation to ranged, even when you control them, slow them, hold them down. They still have those few skills designed to bounce back into melee range.

A revision of this would make more sense. To one where the melee isn't an unstoppable beacon that controls everything that will ever happen and the entire games focus on taking down.

Shifting more to a durable role akin to the heavy from TF2, where being a great team-changing tool comes at the cost of personal weakness. The action of this is beautifully twofold. One, it makes melees less important as direct players in the field, but more important and indeed viable as targets beyond a supreme three man to one ratio requirement. Second, it makes Peeling and defensive CC alot more useful, so the players OTHER than the melee can decide a fight by doing more than just "Handle the enemy melee"

In short; melees need a supreme reduction in their PvP surviability. I think this should be done by melees being less effective gap closers Or by a vast reduction in defensive cooldowns for melees, making them more worth time on beating at.

[Eldrad]

The Balance between melee and ranged is one that is difficult. Actually, that's incorrect. It is factually EASY to do if you take the merest seconds of time out of your day and think.

Melee in World of Warcraft is not one they took those seconds to think about. And because of that, it runs directly ramshod over every other idea of tactical ability in World of Warcraft and why the PvP in this game is so ruined and without any requirement for talent outside of "Get a melee".

Many of you would think this hyperbole. But have you never seen a BG run entirely on two melees being impossible to kill on the enemy team? Or a Arena game where it is decided entirely by melee.

This would not be a bad thing, if the melee was with it's risks, as all roles and tactics, it should be about weighing the costs with said risks. melees have no risks. Because they are so strong in relation to ranged, even when you control them, slow them, hold them down. They still have those few skills designed to bounce back into melee range.

A revision of this would make more sense. To one where the melee isn't an unstoppable beacon that controls everything that will ever happen and the entire games focus on taking down.

Shifting more to a durable role akin to the heavy from TF2, where being a great team-changing tool comes at the cost of personal weakness. The action of this is beautifully twofold. One, it makes melees less important as direct players in the field, but more important and indeed viable as targets beyond a supreme three man to one ratio requirement. Second, it makes Peeling and defensive CC alot more useful, so the players OTHER than the melee can decide a fight by doing more than just "Handle the enemy melee"

In short; melees need a supreme reduction in their PvP surviability. I think this should be done by melees being less effective gap closers Or by a vast reduction in defensive cooldowns for melees, making them more worth time on beating at.

So wrong.
I could easily swap the word melee for ranged in your post and it would be equally accurate, which is to say... "not very".

[Deleted]

I don't though. Evidence in this very thread proves them wrong.

So somewhere in this thread you proved that 2 dps can't kill a healer? That's awesome and good for you, although this theory may not survive the contact with reality.

Healing in WoW is like DPSing, but your HPS requirement is lower and your spells do much more healing than other things do damage.

The HPS requirement is exactly the same as the dps. If I heal less then I get damage, I die. If I heal more, nothing happens because my health is full. And yeah, healers (given the same skill level) are capable of healing more then the damage of a single dps, because the game is balanced for 3v3. I think about 4 different people said this to you and you still haven't replied to it in any other way then to say "factually incorrect", which it isn't.

But honestly, I think that biggischkris is kinda right - you won't consider other opinions even for one second and instead choose to disregard any evidence or opinions that don't fit into your theory. I guess you're a theology student? It would fit.

[nightfalls]

So wrong.
I could easily swap the word melee for ranged in your post and it would be equally accurate, which is to say... "not very".

I think you might have missed the point of the post

[solarfallz]

(snip)

Healer who thinks he's better than he is detected.

[nightfalls]

Healer who thinks he's better than he is detected.

Personally I don't really think I'm that "great" - but I've played enough to figure out what the abilities and limitations of healers are. Good DPS can really do a number on healers, bad DPS really hardly scratch them. Same with healers, good healers can evade damage and control, bad healers who can't position or use their escape abilities go down instantly when focused and fall behind on sustained damage.

Simple as that.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

This is an issue I have with Heroes as well.
Being able to survive in pvp as your main focus simply isn't suitable to balance.

However, WoW is WAY too far gone.
They should have never added Arenas to the game and attempted to call it "ranked."

BGs and world pvp make sense in the game, but the clearly have no interested in making truly balanced competitive pvp. I'm surprised so many people still do it, or make posts like this arguing its ups and downs.

If PVE was this imbalanced I would have simply moved on.

[solarfallz]

Personally I don't really think I'm that "great" - but I've played enough to figure out what the abilities and limitations of healers are. Good DPS can really do a number on healers, bad DPS really hardly scratch them. Same with healers, good healers can evade damage and control, bad healers who can't position or use their escape abilities go down instantly when focused and fall behind on sustained damage.

Simple as that.

You are not the person I quoted.

[Deleted]

Healer who thinks he's better than he is detected.

I've played just about everything and unlike you I'm not stuck in my dps bubble that says :
'I'm a dps, thats the only thing that takes skill, healers are all noobs'

Good luck with that

[solarfallz]

I've played just about everything and unlike you I'm not stuck in my dps bubble that says :
'I'm a dps, thats the only thing that takes skill, healers are all noobs'

Good luck with that

I never said that or even implied it. Only pointed out that your first post (and this one too I guess) just reek of the type of player that thinks they're way better than they really are.

[Deleted]

You think healing is stupid now? You probably don't remember wotlk when dps-ers had no self heals, with a few exceptions, and healers had very decent damage. You could win any any duel or wpvp as a healer simply by grinding down the opposition while being immortal.

Back then I actually got ganked on my dk by an equally geared disc priest because even spamming deathstrike couldn't keep up with his retarded damage for a healer and there was no day to even dent him in 1v1.