Stats between arcane and fire?

[pkm]

So if we are using both specs switching depending on fights, which one do we gear for? I heard it was mastery but does that mean mastery all the way? Or do i wanna focus on gearing up for one spec?

[Deleted]

The one you use the most? If you spend half the fights as one and half the other, pick one or gear for the middle stats of both. If you spend 75% as one spec and switch for the other 25%, it's obvious which to gear for.

[MerinPally]

Mastery for enchants and stuff. The tier pieces you want are hat, shoulders, chest regardless of spec, then your 4th piece depends on spec although I can't for the life of me remember which way round it is. Weapons and trinket will vary slightly too but the number of offpieces is small so you'll get the lot eventually anyway.

[Deleted]

Arcane wants: Mastery and Haste
Fire wants (with 4pc): Haste to 900-mastery-crit
So you go with haste till 900, rest mastery, some crit.
Enchants/gems all mastery (maybe 1 gem haste if u reach 900 with that)
Beside that its not really much which u can switch. After 900 haste fire is happy about more crit so u can maybe swap some parts out.
Also for trinkets its possible to swap them around (gore+darmac for fire, gore+blackhand for arcane) but it assumes u have luck with drops.
Most of the time u will wear the same equip. The gain for another part is very small and most of the time eaten up by the fact that the offpiece has a socket or wf.

[BreaKerNZ]

trinkets for fire are Gorens and Blackhand according to Lexi from method are there updated sims showing the darmac trinket?

[Wilderness]

Mastery is Arcane's best stat. Mastery is Fire's best stat for cleave/AoE fights. If its a single-target fight, you're probably playing Arcane. If its cleave/AoE, you're probably playing Fire. Seems pretty easy which way to go.

[ablib]

When and how did mastery become more important for fire?

[Wilderness]

When and how did mastery become more important for fire?

Its not, for single-target. Mastery is only better for cleave and AoE, which is generally what you're using Fire on.

[Deleted]

trinkets for fire are Gorens and Blackhand according to Lexi from method are there updated sims showing the darmac trinket?

Especially for fights without BL at the start the darmactrinket is better for the 2pc-trick. But it all depends on your current equip, your options and at least a little bit personal preference. The gap is really small.

[Deleted]

Especially for fights without BL at the start the darmactrinket is better for the 2pc-trick. But it all depends on your current equip, your options and at least a little bit personal preference. The gap is really small.

Correct. When you don't BL at start, and adds don't have high amount of HP, Darmac's trinket is better than BH's. I'm pretty sure it involves encounter lenght as well (BH trinket is probably better for longer fights, where Darmac's for shorter). For instance, Blast furnance mythic, (I guess hc too) before you do 2ib trick (at pull) without Darmac's the adds will probably be gone already or with low amount of hp (so basicaly when you are not on foreman's side your combustion uptime may be close to ~3 seconds). On my tries I had a great example of that since I do own Goren's + Crucible and the other mage has Goren's + Darmac's. When I was going for 2ib trick, the adds were already at <50% hp and it led to me having like ~80k dps where the other mage could spike for 150k+ or even 200k+ sometimes. What I realized after some tries is that when you are in the similar situation as me (not having Darmac's trinket on fights like this) is that you can go on Foreman instantly and stay on him and Combust without doing 2ib trick. By the time he reaches Operator you will already have Pyro proc and the overall uptime of Combustion will be higher (this only works if you are on Foreman's side of'course). By doing this i could spike a bit higher rather than when I was trying to do 2pc trick without having Darmac's trinket. Excluding pull, I was always going for 2pc trick with combustion though.

[Zelendria]

As far as drops go the easiest all round set to go for if you're Arcane/Fire is

Arcano head
Gruul's Neck
Arcano Shoulders
Kromog's Cloak
Arcano Chest
Darkened Sky bracers
Arcano Gloves
Beastlords belt
Maiden's legs (Turret Mechanic)
Oregorgers boots
Maiden's Ring
Legend Ring
Blackhand/Goren for Fire
Blackhand/Darmac for Arcane

[Deleted]

For fire you want mostly crit. Mastery is slightly better only for 3+ targets with 100% uptime. There are no fights to favor this. Also for small adds (beastlord,...) crit is again better because of the living bomb not benefiting from mastery at all while it benefits from crit.

The statment mastery > crit is made by simcraft but humans are not playing on simcraft rotation, that rotation is a complicated one made to generate top numbers. Humans cant react to procs because sometimes the react time is less than 150ms including the latency.
Using a human normal action list in simcraft results crit > mastery for less than 3 continuous targets.
For primary target dps, where the main target dmg is more important crit is > mastery even with 3 targets.

Also more crit is less frustration and more stable dps.

[Deleted]

For fire you want mostly crit. Mastery is slightly better only for 3+ targets with 100% uptime. There are no fights to favor this. Also for small adds (beastlord,...) crit is again better because of the living bomb not benefiting from mastery at all while it benefits from crit.

The statment mastery > crit is made by simcraft but humans are not playing on simcraft rotation, that rotation is a complicated one made to generate top numbers. Humans cant react to procs because sometimes the react time is less than 150ms including the latency.
Using a human normal action list in simcraft results crit > mastery for less than 3 continuous targets.
For primary target dps, where the main target dmg is more important crit is > mastery even with 3 targets.

Also more crit is less frustration and more stable dps.

1. With T17 2 and 4pc mastery is better then crit even for singletarget.
2. This thread is about both Fire and Arcane. So the right answer for Singletarget or Prioritytargetfights is not crit its Arcane
3. 3+ targets is also false. Arcane is better then Fire in Singletarget. But every decent Firemage beats an equal decent Arcanemage at Hans/Franz (which is a fight with 1-2 targets) And btw: They do that with Mastery as primary stat.
4. Regarding Beastlord: The maindmg on the adds comes from spreaded Ignite (which is Mastery). LB is only good because u get the dmg on the boss.

Conclusion: Crit>Mastery only for pure fire spec, without T17, for lower itemlvl. Every decent raider above Normal BRF who wants to do the specdance fire/arcane goes Mastery.

[Zelendria]

If your guild stacks the adds up properly on the boss LB will be your highest dmg spell on Darmac. Especially if you've timed the LB properly as you can spread, it blows up when the timer runs out, and you spread a fresh one that explodes when the adds die. That's heavy dmg on Darmac.

If the adds aren't stacked on the boss you might as well kiss your DPS goodbye

[Deleted]

1. With T17 2 and 4pc mastery is better then crit even for singletarget.
2. This thread is about both Fire and Arcane. So the right answer for Singletarget or Prioritytargetfights is not crit its Arcane
3. 3+ targets is also false. Arcane is better then Fire in Singletarget. But every decent Firemage beats an equal decent Arcanemage at Hans/Franz (which is a fight with 1-2 targets) And btw: They do that with Mastery as primary stat.
4. Regarding Beastlord: The maindmg on the adds comes from spreaded Ignite (which is Mastery). LB is only good because u get the dmg on the boss.

Conclusion: Crit>Mastery only for pure fire spec, without T17, for lower itemlvl. Every decent raider above Normal BRF who wants to do the specdance fire/arcane goes Mastery.

Single target fire with human play rotation


This is the real 2 targets fire stats with more human play rotation


I see no way for mastery being better on single target with a human play rotation, unless you think you play like simcraft does.

We are not here to talk about what spec to use for a number of targets, fire also beats arcane on single target.
There is no fight in brf with constant 3+ targets to favor mastery for fire, just because for few seconds there appear some adds means nothing, mastery needs 100% uptime adds to beat crit.

1. wrong
2. wrong
3. wrong
4. wrong: feel free to check warcraft logs top mages and you will notice (with only few exceptions) living bomb is main dmg on adds


Ontopic conclusion: for arcane you need mastery, for fire you need crit. Yes, fire can go fine with mastery but its not optimal, crit would perform better

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1691
You can pick nearly every combo of percentile and difficulty and u will see arcane is above fire.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1693
You can pick nearly every combo of percentile and difficulty and u will see fire is above arcane. (most of them with mastery again)

Regarding Darmac it depends
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=4&target=72
More dmg from ignite and Combustion. But here it heavenly depends on luck so i dont think this point goes anywhere.
We use LB for darmac which is clear.

Regarding simcraft: To say "a more human rotation" is a really vague argument. Mastery for fire is the clear winner for a long time for fire now (starting at the start of BRF as theory and then evolving with T17 and more gear; now its common standard).
Now you came over here mumble something vague as "human rotation" posting some out of the box scale factors and its fine.
Oh and you completly forgot one thing: The 2pc-trick. Its not working in simcraft right now. But it works ingame and increases mastery by a fair point.
If u really want to proof something there is something more to do.
At least you should get a log with higher numbers as critmage.
(btw: The log screenshot you posted: We cant look into it. Bad proof for everything)
Try better next time.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1691
You can pick nearly every combo of percentile and difficulty and u will see arcane is above fire.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1693
You can pick nearly every combo of percentile and difficulty and u will see fire is above arcane. (most of them with mastery again)

Regarding Darmac it depends
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=4&target=72
More dmg from ignite and Combustion. But here it heavenly depends on luck so i dont think this point goes anywhere.
We use LB for darmac which is clear.

Regarding simcraft: To say "a more human rotation" is a really vague argument. Mastery for fire is the clear winner for a long time for fire now (starting at the start of BRF as theory and then evolving with T17 and more gear; now its common standard).
Now you came over here mumble something vague as "human rotation" posting some out of the box scale factors and its fine.
Oh and you completly forgot one thing: The 2pc-trick. Its not working in simcraft right now. But it works ingame and increases mastery by a fair point.
If u really want to proof something there is something more to do.
At least you should get a log with higher numbers as critmage.
(btw: The log screenshot you posted: We cant look into it. Bad proof for everything)
Try better next time.

1. Why dont you try a 99% ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...691&dataset=99
The arcane is boosted by the number of players playing the spec, you can notice there are roughly 10 times more players playing arcane vs fire on Gruul. Also feel free to check a oregorger 99 percentile.

2. For Darmac i already said with some exceptions, probably 9 out of 10 is the living bomb top dmg on adds, you can always find the 1/10 and try to justify your theory. You can unglyph the combust only to pad on adds and that will obviously make combust top dmg over lb.

3. Simcraft
Its almost one month since the 2pc trick was stable implemented and fully working in simcraft.
Did you even try to simcraft something instead of blindly reading the guides and assuming they are right ?
I took the mage from the logs you provide on darmac as example to compare the stats. This is the result:


Just to keep it simple i made no modification to simcraft action list, is the default list so you can do it yourself in few minutes.
Even tho i bet you can no generate a heating up when having a pyro and just throw a fireball / pyroblast combo. The flying time is 0.8sec, the server response takes over 200ms, the buff to be displayed takes like 100ms or more and you must already queue another spell to avoid latency. Its humanly imposible to do this, simcraft is doing it. Also you probably dont use IB without procs when on two charges like simcraft do. These things affect the results.

In the end i repeat: fire can work fine with mastery, can actually work with haste too or any other stat the spells benefit from, but the most optimal stat is crit.

[Komman]

Even tho i bet you can no generate a heating up when having a pyro and just throw a fireball / pyroblast combo. The flying time is 0.8sec, the server response takes over 200ms, the buff to be displayed takes like 100ms or more and you must already queue another spell to avoid latency. Its humanly imposible to do this, simcraft is doing it. Also you probably dont use IB without procs when on two charges like simcraft do. These things affect the results.

...?

It is quite humanly possible to do this. The flying time is less than or equal to 0.75 seconds. It is much less than that if you stand closer, such as on certain fights. The server response doesn't take 200 ms - it's usually more on the order of 20-40 ms. The buff display also doesn't take 100 ms. While the default spell alert graphic has a fade-in time, you can easily make your own WA to display instantly. Without strong haste buffs, you have more than half a second to react. Try it on a dummy - it's not that hard if you stand close-ish!

That said, none of this matters in terms of comparing mastery versus crit. Crit is simply stronger, except in sustained cleave with high target numbers. That doesn't really happen in BRF, except maybe P2 add cleanup on Blast Furnace.

[TinaMcNasty]

That said, none of this matters in terms of comparing mastery versus crit. Crit is simply stronger, except in sustained cleave with high target numbers. That doesn't really happen in BRF, except maybe P2 add cleanup on Blast Furnace.

So are you saying that if I want to play purely fire on every encounter and never play arcane, that I should be fully crit enchanted/gemmed? What about weapon enchant? Or is it beneficial to keep somewhat of a balance between mastery/crit still?

I've heard and seen on streams/threads that once you get around 700ilvl there is no reason to run arcane anymore, assuming you know the 2p trick with crystal. I'm currently 698ilvl, and plan on running nothing but fire until 6.2 when the 2p nerf hits. So at this point I'm wondering if I should be swapping out all my mastery gems/enchants for crit? I'm sure there are other mages out there wondering the same.

[Komman]

So are you saying that if I want to play purely fire on every encounter and never play arcane, that I should be fully crit enchanted/gemmed?

Yes.

What about weapon enchant?

Don't know.

Or is it beneficial to keep somewhat of a balance between mastery/crit still?

Don't know.

Nobody I know has really done much serious TC or number crunching on pure fire spec.

I've heard and seen on streams/threads that once you get around 700ilvl there is no reason to run arcane anymore, assuming you know the 2p trick with crystal.

Yes, I've heard a lot of people say that Lexi/Vykina mentions this on stream. I have also heard people saying that Rikh said this on stream, maybe because he heard it from Lexi. I have no idea why or what this is based on, and there is no way of knowing since Lexi seems to have quit. I also don't agree with it.