Mythic Raiding...Sorry This just needs to happen.

[jasdasm]

You can't carry people on progression in 25 Progression. We aren't talking about farm. And we aren't talking about normals. We are talking the most difficult content. People who say"You can't carry people in ten man" are the ones that only do 10 man. Because if you're ever done larger raid sizes you would know about something. Being at range of other players when being too close of them spread damage. Things that kill one person in ten man take out multiple in 25. 25 man raids required more output per player than 10 man.

I've raided mostly 25's. Any time my guild was stuck on a boss the right before a reset, we'd drop down to ten man and get the kill. 10 man gave you boatloads of breathing room.

so you had plenty of time learning a boss.... doesnt mean its easier

[Slicer299]

Yet another person who knows absolutely nothing about the game. Mythic can not exist with 10 people, the 20 person raid we have today was born out of the fact that it was impossible to properly tune encounters for so few people. Add to that the fact that people complained endlessly that they couldn't get 25 people together on a regular basis.

Not only does the 20 man system address both of those issues, but it also addresses the issue of people not being able to raid specifically because of their class due to a lack of available spots. Any argument of "well people still get sat because of their class" is not relevant because nothing Blizzard does will stop people from trying to stack the deck. But as Mythic stands, Normal and Heroic too, every single class is viable. If someone gets left out its because they are incapable of performing at the level required.

Blizzard continues to address the issue of class stacking, which is again 100% the fault of the people who choose to do it, but changing or removing the abilities that make them desirable over someone else. Hence the removal of both Aspect of the Fox and Amp Magic in 6.2. Yes there are better ways to handle those instead of removing, like instituting a raid wide CD like they did with Brez's. But they are getting removed to keep people from stacking them so they can't just make certain mechanics irrelevant by using them.

[Pua]

Once again, as with everything in this turdpile of an expansion, Blizzard only looked to solve a problem for them.

They didn’t want to solve the class stacking problem.
They didn’t want to tune for flex.
They didn’t want to design mechanics that work in smaller groups.

There’s no doubt that the game would benefit greatly from the 10-man Mythic setting, but Blizzard simply decided it was beyond their capability to do properly (which we’ve more than enough evidence for) and fixed their problem with an arbitrary number limit. Other examples include content consumption (time-gating), fast gearing (random bonuses and/or statistics) and flight (removed entirely).

The community never benefits from less options. Only the designers do.

I expect more of this design down the road, assuming the same team continues to lamely limp on into the next expansion’s design cycle.

[BioOrc]

They should redo the proportions of raid imo. Decrease number of required dps, increase number of required tanks (by 1 or 2) and healers (by 1) for most fights.

[Heltoray]

So many people in here who want stuff to be changed but didn't even think for one second about the consequences... Heroic LFR? don't make me fucking laugh... What exact problem was there with 20 man raiding again? Oh yes, if you can't get 20 people together then tough luck, maybe you should try harder and make it happen by looking for another guild to cooperate with or gear some people or whatever. 20 People are still less that the 25 you needed a while ago and just because the community wants more and more stuff for less effort that doesn't mean we should always cater to the lowest common denominator. There are still 3 damned difficulties for anyone who somehow ,,can't" make it into mythic raiding after all. Which is bullshit imo because if you actually want to go into mythic you will be able to do so somehow. If not, your guild (or you) are not meant to do it. That is why there are different difficulties. Easy as that.

[Keosen]

It will eventually go back to 10/20man at some point.
It won't be good but it will.

[tratra]

Make Mythic flex already. Flex has been such a boon to raiding in general, it really does my head in why they keep adding these constraints all of a sudden to Mythic.

"We need to lock it down to 20 players so we can finetune the fights", holds little value if we look at the current state of Mythic raiding. You have various different group compositions, including ridiculous groups that go full hunter/boomkin with some healers and tanks. You don't need one special group comp to defeat Mythic, so it just boils down to the numbers. I don't get why they can scale enemy health and damage in normal & heroic, but all of a sudden can't for Mythic.

Sure, it'll mean that World First guilds will be using the optimum amount of players for each fight. However, would that really be any different from the current artificial imposed optimum of 20 players? Finally, I really couldn't care any less about World Firsts since they have nothing to do with me or my guildies playing the game.




Could you at least explain why that is? Your answer is an empty statement that could be made about anything at any time. For example, you could've made that simple statement about 10/25 mans in MoP. However, time has shown that the flex system is to many an improvement on the system. Your rigid and simple way of thinking breaks down way too easily.

Sorry but normal and heroic are not finetunned they are just broken! If you use more players you obviously have an advantage (not for a pug)

[Beet]

Sorry no. Mythic needs to stay 20 man. Or actually Mythic should become 25 man!

I can't believe people don't understand this. OP you're just wrong, sorry. 10 and 20 mans cannot be balanced evenly. We've seen that since Cata. One will be the shitty easy version, and that's generally 10 although theres been exceptions. With 20 mans Blizzard can balance encounters expecting you have at least one of every single class. In 10 they can't do that. I look back at all my favorite fights from vanilla and TBC, they all have certain things in common and that's that one class was needed for certain things. Like fights when you'd have mages spellsteal or warlocks tank etc. This leads to creative encounters, and Blizz can finally have these again.

[Deja Thoris]

Sorry no. Mythic needs to stay 20 man. Or actually Mythic should become 25 man!

I can't believe people don't understand this. OP you're just wrong, sorry. 10 and 20 mans cannot be balanced evenly. We've seen that since Cata. One will be the shitty easy version, and that's generally 10 although theres been exceptions. With 20 mans Blizzard can balance encounters expecting you have at least one of every single class. In 10 they can't do that. I look back at all my favorite fights from vanilla and TBC, they all have certain things in common and that's that one class was needed for certain things. Like fights when you'd have mages spellsteal or warlocks tank etc. This leads to creative encounters, and Blizz can finally have these again.

This is just rubbish. Blizz had over a year from the announcement to come up with creative mechanics to showcase their intentions. They came up with MC on blast furnace and the early need to class stack on the last fight. What their stated intention was and what they achieved" -and I use that term lightly - are worlds apart.

Mages spellstealing and warlocks tanking are about as creative as having to collect 50 wolf turds in a level 5 questing zone.

[kamuimac]

Oh yes, if you can't get 20 people together then tough luck, maybe you should try harder

this is a computer game - something what people turn on to relax and enjoy not to work hard - if something require hard work its usually ignored by most and as resoult itswastedresources which could have been alocated somewhere else where they couldbe used better - aka dailies&more dungeons - you know content thatis actually used by players not only by basement dwellers.

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This is just rubbish. Blizz had over a year from the announcement to come up with creative mechanics to showcase their intentions. They came up with MC on blast furnace and the early need to class stack on the last fight. What their stated intention was and what they achieved" -and I use that term lightly - are worlds apart.

.

this actually is one of biggest lie of mythic something what blizzard totoaly didnt deliver althought it was supposed to be mainfocus of mythic - and we ended up as always with guidls stacking 2-3 classes and ignoring everything else.

[Deleted]

PLEASE stop talking about flexmode for mythic. This is just retarded.

I mean every average smart person would perfectly understand why it is bullsh.it.

[Deja Thoris]

PLEASE stop talking about flexmode for mythic. This is just retarded.

I mean every average smart person would perfectly understand why it is bullsh.it.

Average smart person? Anyone using such a dumb expression isn't even average. Also you don't need to type naug.ht.y words like that!

[Deleted]

Average smart person? Anyone using such a dumb expression isn't even average. Also you don't need to type naug.ht.y words like that!

You obviosly feel offended by my post. Are you one of the below average guys that really doesn t get it? And please, stop flaming because of expressions, this is just pathetic. I mean every average smart person (lawl), knows that not everyones first language here is english, so you could be, just a littlebit forgiving in that matter, thx.

[borisshayo]

It's undeniable that raiding guilds are disbanding en masse, and the removal of 10 man raiding at the highest level of difficulty certainly has a lot to do with that. A massive amount of people who used to raid old heroic now simply can't anymore without guild hopping. People can say 10 man guilds should have prepared by recruiting and merging and blabla but the reality of the situation is that you can't really control it. I was in a guild that cleared 10 man heroic SoO pre 6.0. When WoD came we initially had so much people for our potential raid roster that we had to sit people for our early heroic highmaul runs (which goes up to 30 man!) because we had too many people. Ofcourse that number started declining at an astronomical rate and soon we barely had enough people to raid mythic. Our 20 man roster frankly wasn't as strong as our 10 man roster was in siege, so our progress wasn't the best, which made it impossible to recruit going into BRF. I left that guild because it became obvious we wouldn't be doing mythic in BRF after seeing how the roster declined even further. I'm steadily progressing through mythic now and I'm pretty happy with my current guild, but it's a massive shame how things went.

Yes, ideally the highest difficulty of raiding would have a single size. Having multiple sizes means there will be some balance differences between certain bosses, especially the more complicated/harder ones. Solving this relatively minor issue was absolutely not worth fucking over such a massive amount of raiders. People talk about how it legitimizes the world first race and makes it more competitive, but that's something that affects like maybe 150 people in total. There's absolutely no way Blizzard would and should make such massive changes for such a tiny fraction of players. It stopped arguments about which difficulty is the hardest, but that's something that only affects retarded posters on mmochampion.com who feel the need to publically jerk themselves off and throw fights over their egos.

Killing off 10 man raiding was simply not worth these little gains, and after seeing the goddamned mess the raider community is in, I would be very surprised if Blizzard won't revert this change in the next expansion.

[stormgust]

Sorry no. Mythic needs to stay 20 man. Or actually Mythic should become 25 man!

I can't believe people don't understand this. OP you're just wrong, sorry. 10 and 20 mans cannot be balanced evenly. We've seen that since Cata. One will be the shitty easy version, and that's generally 10 although theres been exceptions.

But most people were fine with them being unevenly balanced. The removal of 10hc on the other hand left a huge void in terms of content for a lot of former raiding guilds (in an expansion already lacking considerably in end game content).

With 20 mans Blizzard can balance encounters expecting you have at least one of every single class.

They can, but they don't. In the end it's still about stacking classes most suited for certain mechanics.

In 10 they can't do that. I look back at all my favorite fights from vanilla and TBC, they all have certain things in common and that's that one class was needed for certain things. Like fights when you'd have mages spellsteal or warlocks tank etc. This leads to creative encounters, and Blizz can finally have these again.

All they managed to do in the first tier was mind control on blast furnace. Unless one uses class targeted boss abilities (e.g. nefarian calls - so rather tends to force even more severe class stacking instead of a properly balanced roster), you'd have to rely on unique class abilities - it's just that most of those have already been removed.

[Blackmist]

Something needs to change. Especially on smaller or less progression based realms.

Let's have an example.

http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/twisting-nether

Take a look. Not even the most progressed realm. Their worst guild in the top 20 still has 6/7M 8/10M. Now let's have another.

http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/connected-aerie-peak

There are very few guilds that can even attempt Mythic raiding. People are already struggling to get numbers. They can't recruit much because a lot of Mythic capable people are happy where they are. They can't borrow people because that would lock them out of their own guild progress. People aren't about to jump to a low progress realm to join them.

Blizzard can either say "this is fine", and watch smaller realms fall apart even more. People will finish heroic content and unsubscribe until more content appears. Only big realms would matter to Blizzard and MMO-Champion.

Or they can take action. A Flex Mythic that allows us to attempt harder content with fewer people (even if only 20 man counted in the official rankings). Remove the hard lockouts from Mythic content (so people could go to their own guilds progress as well as filling in for another). Remove realm locks from Mythic content to allow people to trial with another realm. These options are all there. They're open to world first abuses, so maybe only enable them after the content has been out for a month or two.

[Aqua]

No. No more upheavals of this kind. One raid size. One ideal pool of raiders. The flex heroics are great for weeding out your ideal team in the coming mythic progression, but the 20mans are where it should be. I'd been saying since cataclysm I'd wanted one raid size of 20 or 15 players ideally at the top end, now I have it, you shush down in front.

Flex is great, flex is awesome, guess what though, bring that into mythic and there will STILL be one ideal raid size that everyone claims is the 'super force' of tuning. 20man allows blizzard to really pressure the teams on a widespread level with the new introduced mechanics. Fights like gruul with dps checks would have been found to have been cheesed even easier when finding the correct 3-5 healers needed and an excess of mobile dps. The constraints force you to think about the composition of your group. And to take 20 people no matter what, because tuning fights like that for mythic will result in the sweetspot amounts of players for each encounter. Benching and disallowing players to participate, or requiring more than the raid force can offer.

Heroic is where you belong if this system is killing your group. I'm really really sorry, and I don't understand what the shame of raiding heroic is, it's a commendable achievement in of itself. Heroic Blackhand was no sleepwalk. I had 2 mythic kills before I took him down. Heroic raiders are still good raiders. They're not able to dedicate time and effort needed to meeting mythic standards but that's no failing on their part. Recruitment and finding a team is a chore not many get lucky with.

The 25/10 man split was fine when 10 was the easier difficulty, when they tuned it evenly, then I took issue. It did not work, it split up guilds on a massive scale and broke many many many guilds, this conjoining at mythic tier and flex modes with cross realm has begun to mend that wound, and I cannot be more relieved.

Everyone that loves 20 man will be singing a different tune when they see the grave being dug for their guild. As all the guilds below them wither and die their recruitment base will do the same.

Maaaaybe this is unique to EU but our recruitment is at an all time high with many people wanting to move up to mythic. Casual guilds are still thriving (with my alts in a few to observe that they're doing normal where there was silence and maybe some pvp previously) So this drama queening has me confused.

[Dukenukem]

Something needs to change. Especially on smaller or less progression based realms.

If anything, cross realm capability could be added to Mythic. - a lot better for testing before payed transfer

[Geckoo]

Mythic raiding has no problem in how is designed, but raiding in general has a big problem right now: flex raiding.

Flex raiding is a double-edged sword that looks great and works great for smaller guilds that don't plan to raid mythic and are content with some heroic progress. It works great for them since they don't really have any heavy requirement in the number of players they need. The problem comes for guilds that do want to raid in mythic but they either lack players or lack skill.

Those guilds without flex would've ended up disbanding and thus providing new raiders for everyone, some of them potential mythic raiders. Since that's not happening everyone is suffering the consequences: a ton of medium guilds that have already failed in their goals just keep raiding because flex allows them and mythic guilds don't see a flow of new potential raiders knocking at their doors... because they are still raiding with their actual guilds that keep going on in their already failed projects. Guild movements this expansion are practically non-existant compared to other expansions and that is the root of many other problems with raiding right now.


Now, of course it could be said that making mythic also flexible might be a solution, but i personally don't think that's the right move since a competitive mode needs to be as equal for everyone as possible. That's why there has always been problems between 10 & 25, just imagine if we are talking about 15 to 20 different sizes per boss, can anyone guarantee that situations like boss #5 is better with 14 players but boss #7 is way easier with 22 won't happen?

If a healthy raiding population is a goal, then the course of action will always be to equal the playfield. In the long term this is having one single size for all raid modes, no flex, no 10/25: one single size. This was already a problem when we had 10/25, but the fact that 10 was so easy to access did a good job hiding those issues. Personally i think 20 is a great number that allows to have more variety than 10, but maybe 15 is more apropiate for a single size.

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If anything, cross realm capability could be added to Mythic. - a lot better for testing before payed transfer

This needs to happen ASAP. The reasons they have given in the past are just stupid, no one cares about a realm first when you are almost the only raid in that realm :|

[Deleted]

No we just dont want to raid mythic, because it just isnt fun being on coms with massive ego's.