Benching, loot systems and attendance

[Zolvolt]

A guild can't realistically function on 20 people alone. Real life happens. Emergencies happen. Work happens. Internet issues happen.

You need to have a bench, but you can't recruit "for the bench" People won't stay if they don't get play time, as a leader its your duty to give people play time.
Coming up with a system that works for your guild is important.

Below is what I use to keep track of how many bosses players are in per week, who hasn't killed a boss at all, and what loot players still need. This kind of thing works for us. You might not always get it right, but having open communication with your players, so they can tell you what they need, or can ask to be in on something there not, is something that I've grown pretty fond of. Having that kind of thing usually keeps people happy in my experience.

See here

Thats how I feel about it anyways.

[Googolplex]

we do have a 21 man roster

have no attendency requirement

This will never work out unless you want to pug multiple people each raid.

I would say you need 25-27 people. Rotation people is the way to go, since it means everyone gets to raid "most" of the time.

[Deleted]

This will never work out unless you want to pug multiple people each raid.

I would say you need 25-27 people. Rotation people is the way to go, since it means everyone gets to raid "most" of the time.

Depends how you rotate. If your rotation system is based on Buggins' turn then you punish your guild. Rotate in and out for farm so that loot is distributed as well as possible of course. Aside from that, people in the raid will pick themselves by playing well. It does no harm for people to be sat because they don't contribute as much as 20 other players as they will work on improvements and come back into the line up stronger when they get the chance. If they don't rise up to the challenge, then maybe they aren't really Mythic raiders.

[Astynax]

The key to mythic raiding is a healthy bench. Benched people need to know logging on is worth it, and main raiders sometimes need to sit if not required for guild duccess. If you treat 20 people as core and 5 as bench, the bench falls behind on gear and has no motivation to log on, so your 3 hungover raiders that skip a day can't be replaced.

^This above sooooo much ^
You cant label people as bench group or core group. Everyone has to be core, but need a core of ~25-30. To be a mythic raider they'd have to understand that optimal composition >>>> being in on every progression. There's benefits in both. Going in as progression you get lots of experience and play time, but high cost of wipes and potentially no kills or loot that night. Being on the bench, know that your team is hard at work and once they have it figured out it's MUCH easier to rekill that boss with those who have done it, so when the benched goes in they can see the kill & get loot that much faster.

Some classes/specs go in on every raid, some are benched for half the progression. If they cant understand that then deep mythic raiding isnt for them.

[ThePants999]

We're casual, so (a) we're understanding of absence, so we need spares, and (b) we rotate rather than bench.

So, we run a roster of 25/26, pick a team for each night where a couple of people are "on standby" and need to be available in case someone no-shows, and if we have more than 22 signups then the rest get the night off. The team is picked so that everyone's on standby/released the same number of times across the tier.

[mauserr]

I play a WW main, I knew there was 0 chance of me being on our first mythic BH kill as I bring literally nothing worthwhile to the raid. I sat so they could bring in a better class and they got the kill, got mine 2 weeks later. You're saying I have no self respect because I offered to sit (It looks better then being asked imo)

Even officers, gm, raidleader will go on the bench sometimes. Iv never seen guilds with raidmembers that are permanent on the bench. Over recruiting is a fact and perfect attendance is rare. My guild got 4ppl that have perfect attendance in BRF.
Many even request it because farm is boring.
For specific progress bosses u might be stuck on bench though, like if u play melee and have reached blackhand mythic. Thats Blizzards fault though.

This is just selfish, if you are in a guild doing mythic progression the most important for you should be your raid progress, even if this mean rerolling or sit in a boss because other class are needed, keeping a bench isnt an easy task, if you do it wrong people will leave.

And neither of you actually understood what I was talking about. I'm not talking about being occasionally benched for one or two bosses because your class is just shit. I'm talking about the kind of benching when you join a guild to be on the bench for the ENTIRE raid progression. Not only a fight or two because your class is shit. Joining a guild only to be a replacement for no-shows is having no self respect.

[huth]

And neither of you actually understood what I was talking about. I'm not talking about being occasionally benched for one or two bosses because your class is just shit. I'm talking about the kind of benching when you join a guild to be on the bench for the ENTIRE raid progression. Not only a fight or two because your class is shit. Joining a guild only to be a replacement for no-shows is having no self respect.

Which is why you can't do it that way. Not to mention that it would be a bad idea anyway, since that ensures that your benchers have no idea how the fights go.

Nonetheless, you cannot effectively raid Mythic without a sizeable bench. People not showing up for various reasons is a fact of life, and you have basically no capacity to deal with that at all. Nor can you deal with bosses which would be easier with a different raid setup.

[Styxxa]

21 people is hardly enough players for a consistent Mythic roster. 25-27 is really what you should aim for.

Farm runs you can rotate people who need/don't need loot and check out recruits. Progress run rosters are based on optimal composition and proven performance.

A Mythic guild should always be recruiting even when the roster appears full.

Those people on the roster from 21-27 either step up their games or are happy to get in to a few bosses on farm or when they're needed on standby.

[Youn]

We run 30 players for mythic. 1 paladin tank (100% attendance), 1 bear tank (100% attendance), 1 WW/BrM (95% attendance), 5 Healers (90% attendance each), 1 healer (30% attendance), 3 warlocks (They rotate 2 in per fight on average), 5 Hunters (2-3 in per fight rotated), 3 mages (2 in raid all time, 1 undergeared Farm night only), 1 boomkin, 2 Rogues (Both 70% attendance), 2 Shadowpriests (90% attendance each), 1 Warrior, 2 DPS shamans, 1 DPS Dk (50% attendance, mostly bored with raiding), 1 Ret paladin

Generally, speaking we make sure to get people in on fights and between bosses ask who needs this boss and who wants to sit for it.


Our loot system is loot council using EKGPlootmaster addon as a quick way for people to put in for items. When an item goes up you get the following choices:

[BIS][4PC][2PC][Main][Minor][Sidegrade][Offset][Greed][Transmog] [notes]


Those buttons pretty much help the council make a decision quick enough.

[BergErr]

And neither of you actually understood what I was talking about. I'm not talking about being occasionally benched for one or two bosses because your class is just shit. I'm talking about the kind of benching when you join a guild to be on the bench for the ENTIRE raid progression. Not only a fight or two because your class is shit. Joining a guild only to be a replacement for no-shows is having no self respect.

Most guilds dont recruit like this.

[Deleted]

We run 30 players for mythic. 1 paladin tank (100% attendance), 1 bear tank (100% attendance), 1 WW/BrM (95% attendance), 5 Healers (90% attendance each), 1 healer (30% attendance), 3 warlocks (They rotate 2 in per fight on average), 5 Hunters (2-3 in per fight rotated), 3 mages (2 in raid all time, 1 undergeared Farm night only), 1 boomkin, 2 Rogues (Both 70% attendance), 2 Shadowpriests (90% attendance each), 1 Warrior, 2 DPS shamans, 1 DPS Dk (50% attendance, mostly bored with raiding), 1 Ret paladin

I like how you don't give the Ret attedance; almost as if it doesn't matter

[BIS][4PC][2PC][Main][Minor][Sidegrade][Offset][Greed][Transmog] [notes]

Not sure you need that [Greed] in there; everything is pretty much covered I'd say.

[Youn]

Astraelon (the ret) shows up about 90% of the time. He is in pretty much 100% of the time that he is here. Some fights are easier if you have a good quantity of melee in BRF. IE.. Mythic Hans and Franz (tank soak group), Mythic Oregorger (Interupts), Mythic Flamebender(Soak group). Since, we are only 5/10.. that pretty much means we have to have all our melee in as much as they show up.

[Greed] for us is used mostly if you already have the tier piece and want a chance to roll for it to be a better piece. IE. Warforge or socketted.

[Deleted]

[Greed] for us is used mostly if you already have the tier piece and want a chance to roll for it to be a better piece. IE. Warforge or socketted.

Ah, we have that (just called re-roll).

[Youn]

Once you get the point that you are sharding the first 5 bosses loot consistently. You have a lot of people that are willing to sit for a fight. I personally, have skipped a bunch of the fights because there simply isn't anything on them for me. The boss has to die, but if other people want in for the fight, more power to them. I particularly hate belts. :P

[Broccoliz]

I haven't heard anyone suggest what ended up happening "on accident" for us - two teams, considered equal. One of our teams is mythic focused and the other is content with full clearing heroic and assisting us / gearing alts. It requires finding the right people which did take us some time, but we schedule all guild events to keep bonding and fun levels high so all raiders are satisfied. We typically need 1-3 backups, so pull in those from the heroic team who are interested in mythic progression. It allows a "bench" without calling it that and functions essentially the same way.

That being said, finding the right people for this is extremely difficult. I am very Lucky to have such amazing guildies; we are also not hardcore, just raid two nights a week. Solution might not work for everyone but it's something to consider.

[Deleted]

^This above sooooo much ^
You cant label people as bench group or core group. Everyone has to be core, but need a core of ~25-30. To be a mythic raider they'd have to understand that optimal composition >>>> being in on every progression. There's benefits in both. Going in as progression you get lots of experience and play time, but high cost of wipes and potentially no kills or loot that night. Being on the bench, know that your team is hard at work and once they have it figured out it's MUCH easier to rekill that boss with those who have done it, so when the benched goes in they can see the kill & get loot that much faster.

Some classes/specs go in on every raid, some are benched for half the progression. If they cant understand that then deep mythic raiding isnt for them.

this. As an Officer in my guild, I don't label people as bench fodder. Everyone that's a raider has earned their right to be in the current raid team, it's honestly bad leadership to just keep a few people on the bench because they are worst than other players, if people are under performing or you just don't want them in your raid team then speak to them and trim the fat from your guilds roster. As for the benching for progress part, 100% agree. For Blackhand specifically, we had to bench a lot of good players to run with the best comp we had avalible to us, it wasn't out of spite, it was to make it as less punishing as possible. If people can't comprehend being benched because their class sucks or whatever, they probably don't belong in a Mythic environment, at least when the bosses start getting harder.

Another thing is to always leave recruitment open, if people are under performing even after you talk to them etc, then find someone else for them to compete for a spot with, it's healthy for a Guild to have competition when people are demotivated, suddenly they start playing much better. I know it sounds like a "dog eat dog world" situation, but to remain competitive in clearing and having a stable roster it's one of the best things to do. Now obviously it's not as simple as taking the first guy that applies and putting them in that situation, you should always try to get someone that can hold up to the expectations and most likely exceed them.

[Celarent]

My guild's 25-man was chock a block throughout 5.2 and 5.4, and I faced the paradox: how do you encourage the bench, and how do you reassure the regulars? Nobody who's there every week expects to sit, yet overflow will eventually run out of patience or fall futilely behind.

For 5.4, I instituted a reward-based rotation for bench volunteers/picks:

1. Receive double attendance points, immediately usable if subbed back in later
2. Receive boss-related points while benched
3. Be guaranteed a seat for the next 2 weeks

It was reserved for players with established high attendance, and rewards restricted to once every 3 weeks. Worked like a charm, because no regular worried he'd fall behind or get exploited for saying yes, while capable recruits/returns could actually get seasoning and gear.

[I Push Buttons]

I feel sorry for the bench in my guild. I am relatively new compared to the rest of the main people having only been there since the beginning of Highmaul compared to most being there for years, but I am a tank and we have no back up tanks so I am always in. Anyways they told the bench that we were going to do progression for the first half of the night last night and then we would steamroll 10/10H the second half of the night with the bench getting priority on gear (most of them are newer/under geared).

Like seven of them showed up and hung out for an hour and a half. Then the raid lead told them to hang on a little while longer while we did a few more attempts. We ended up just never stopping and those guys just sat around for 3 hours for nothing. Which is made even shittier because we aren't doing heroic on our second raid day either... So those guys aren't getting anything this week unless they go pug a heroic... Which is easier said than done.

I am not an officer so I have no say, but I thought it was pretty bullshit and I wasn't even the one getting shafted. If I had more seniority I would have spoken up, but my position is far from a guaranteed spot and there aren't exactly a shit ton of two night/three hours per night mythic progression guilds looking for tanks out there. At least not on my server.

[Deleted]

And neither of you actually understood what I was talking about. I'm not talking about being occasionally benched for one or two bosses because your class is just shit. I'm talking about the kind of benching when you join a guild to be on the bench for the ENTIRE raid progression. Not only a fight or two because your class is shit. Joining a guild only to be a replacement for no-shows is having no self respect.

Why would you do that? if that happened i would just leave unless i was a social and not part of the actual raiding team.

[UnityOnArthas]

Dream of the old 10man