Lets talk about taxes: US edition.

[Conspicuous Cultist]

So it's no secret a good portion of peoples' pay goes towards taxes, probably more than some of us prefer because it is a fairly significant portion of our income goes towards government expenditures that seem questionable at best.

So thus far this is what we get out of our tax money and you most certainly add on to it if I forgot a few:

- Free education up to high school

- Roads, utilities, etc.

- Cops, firemen, ambulance (still have to pay for the medical bill.)

- We have a massive army at the government's disposal.

- They pay for many government functions which is mostly just paper pushing, but you do get some quality assurance from the things like the FDA.

- You're entitled to be on the dole if things go tits up, albeit nobody wants to be in section eight housing because most ghettos are there.

- Medical insurance at a reduced rate with some government backing that they won't dick you over as much.

Now lets go look at the rest of the "1st world" and see what they have that we don't. Again, my knowledge is limited but:

- Reduced/Free University tuiton-wise although books could be a different story.

- Nationalized healthcare, nobody will be brought into the poor house or need to sell meth to pay for their cancer treatment.

There's probably more to it but that's all I can think off the top of my head.

So the question is: Do you think you're getting enough out of your taxes since ultimately it's supposed to benefit the people or do you feel like it's pissing all your money in the wind?

Also our taxation system is rather byzantine with the rich business-owners being able simultaneously to evade taxes while high income earners getting shafted with massive cuts to their own income. Do you think it could use reform and do you have any ideas on how you'd set the tax system up?

[ezgeze]

How can you say taxes pay for...then in the list you claim education is free up to high school. Its not free, taxpayers paid for it already.

[Conspicuous Cultist]

How can you say taxes pay for...then in the list you claim education is free up to high school. Its not free, taxpayers paid for it already.

We're getting into semantics at this point.

Yes, nothing is "free" and it's subsidized by the taxpayer.

But anyone can get their child through public education without having to pay for school if they couldn't afford it normally.

[cuafpr]

No, the gov't is horrid a budgeting and the concept of PPBE based budgeting encourages the spend it or lose it mentality that results in wasteful spending and wasted tax dollars. First step is change how the entire budget process works to encourage smart spending and saving, and then close loopholes esp those at the top of the food chain.

[taliey]

A distinct narrative is going to arise from this thread - we want more services from the government, all while paying less for them.

Talk about having it both ways.

[Kryctos]

We are not even getting the roads and utilities part atm. We've had several bridge collapses in the past few years we have tolls on almost every highway collecting money to cause more traffic jams ( I can explain this one in detail if you want) and to maintain the road cause taxes sure arent anymore, we have electric poles and other infrastructure that is comparable to what you see in the more advanced 3rd world countries. What we can say with certainty that our taxes are providing is the k-12 education and the military funding the rest is questionable.

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A distinct narrative is going to arise from this thread - we want more services from the government, all while paying less for them.

Talk about having it both ways.

We could have more from government if we didn't make a business out of people's livelihoods.

[ezgeze]

I find it interesting how 46.6% of the people in the US don't pay federal taxes yet they tell those who do pay taxes they need to pay more to "pay their fare share".

If you want to send your child to a private school, in most states you have to pay twice. Once for the public school your kid wont be attending and the other for the private school they will be attending.

How people cannot understand why "the rich" pay a lower tax rate than others. Most super rich get "paid" by gains on investments they hold. These investments need to be taxed at a lower rate than normal earnings to give an incentive to invest that money where they risk both losses and gains.

According to Forbes, we have a 127 Trillion unfunded liability which one day will need to be addressed, yet people want to keep the government programs going and giving out more promises which they will not be able to pay for in the end.

[Masark]

I find it interesting how 46.6% of the people in the US don't pay federal taxes yet they tell those who do pay taxes they need to pay more to "pay their fare share".

How people cannot understand why "the rich" pay a lower tax rate than others. Most super rich get "paid" by gains on investments they hold. These investments need to be taxed at a lower rate than normal earnings to give an incentive to invest that money where they risk both losses and gains.

1. 46.6% don't make enough to have any money to pay tax with.

2. People don't understand that because it has no basis in fact. Capital gains tax rates have approximately fuck-all to do with economic growth.

[tiporispit]

If you're not paying $11,000 in taxes PER PERSON in your household, then you aren't even paying in what you're getting out. You're basically a freeloader, and 85% of you are saying you're not getting "your" money's worth. Laughable. Go ahead and check the numbers at OMB or CBO. They all say the same thing. Regular Joes are net-takers from the system.

[Kellhound]

So long as we maintain the most powerful military, taxes are well spent.

[BellaSwoosh]

No. Only because I see a lot being spent on things I do not support.

I am poor though so my opinion matters little. It's a fact that the rich pay the most in taxes. I'm okay with that. I wish less would be paid to foreign nations, and bank bail outs etc, but it aint my money (mostly). Hell, I get 1100 per month tax free so I really can't complain too much.

[Garnier Fructis]

I'm definitely getting my money's worth, given that I don't pay taxes.

[Endus]

I find it interesting how 46.6% of the people in the US don't pay federal taxes yet they tell those who do pay taxes they need to pay more to "pay their fare share".

Because "a fair share" is not a synonym for "an equal share".

When a man crawls in out of the desert, and there's only one bottle of water left in the bar, you don't share it out equally among everyone there, you give the dying man the bottle of water. That's "fair". Equal shares would be blatantly inequitable.

Plus, you forget that those who have made more money have done so with the support of that very same city/state/nation that they live in, and which they pay taxes to; they have reaped greater benefits from that system than the poor have, as can be seen by their greater wealth. It makes perfect sense to ask them to give back more. That's "fair".

If you want to send your child to a private school, in most states you have to pay twice. Once for the public school your kid wont be attending and the other for the private school they will be attending.

Because education is a right, not a privilege. You aren't paying property taxes to pay for schools for your kids. You're explicitly paying property taxes to pay for the education of all children in your area. This is true whether you've got kids going to private school, whether you have no children, or whether your children are grown and beyond schooling. Again, this is part of the fabric of society in which you live.

How people cannot understand why "the rich" pay a lower tax rate than others. Most super rich get "paid" by gains on investments they hold. These investments need to be taxed at a lower rate than normal earnings to give an incentive to invest that money where they risk both losses and gains.

This is trickle-down nonsense that has no reflection in reality. It was a wild theory invented by those same wealthy to encourage legislation that favored them exclusively, and nothing more. No evidence whatsoever exists of any such connection, in any way whatsoever.

According to Forbes, we have a 127 Trillion unfunded liability which one day will need to be addressed, yet people want to keep the government programs going and giving out more promises which they will not be able to pay for in the end.

The USA's national debt isn't out of control. "127 trillion" is a big, scary number, but so are "330 million people" and "16.77 trillion GDP". The USA's national debt is in line with its productive capacity.

[ringpriest]

A distinct narrative is going to arise from this thread - we want more services from the government, all while paying less for them.

Talk about having it both ways.

"Simple" solution, go back to how it was in the 50s - tax corporate profits more (and stop allowing them to be hidden off-shore); tax high-income earners more; and cut defense and security spending back to something sane (and more importantly, stop giving flag officers and defense contractors blank checks and no accountability). $300 billion (inflation adjusted) a year was enough to fight the Cold War; why twice than necessary to deal with a comparative handful of rag-tag religious zealots?

[Grummgug]

The poll question is not relevant to our situation. Neither are the bolded questions in the OP.

To be brief, the US currently needs both tax and regulation cuts for businesses.

The long version:

The current situation in the US is that class warfare has propelled Barack Obama into the White House. The media and the democrats are on a full assault to blame our problems on the wealthy or the business sector. This is not solving anything. Instead, it is dealing tremendous damage to the economy. Businesses have pulled in their horns. They are not being aggressive with expanding and hiring. Instead, they sit on their cash. This has led to a pitifully weak "recovery" where the labor participation rate has plummeted. The data is rigged to benefit the democrats and Obama, by omitting long-term unemployed from the numbers.

Class warfare must end for a recovery to take place.

We as a society must repudiate basically everything Obama stands for to get the economy moving again. We need to reframe the debate as the people and business working together to grow the economy. And that means cutting taxes for business. That means cutting regulations for business. And they need to be DEEPER than what is required because this is about rebuilding trust. We need to show the business sector that we are serious about rejecting Obama, class warfare, and blaming businesses for our problems.

We did this before, in the late 70s and early 80s, under Carter and Reagan. We spent the 60s and most of the 70s blaming the business sector and punishing the business sector, and it led to a great economic malaise. We repudiated that idea and embraced the business sector. And that led to to a 20 year boom.

We have forgot the lessons of the 60s and 70s and must relearn them, hopefully not the hard way. Class warfare sucks. Blaming the business sector sucks. Get over it. Unless Generation Y wants to wind up in their 40s with no career, they need to do some serious soul-searching about what they believe. But maybe it will be up to Generation Z to clean up the mess. Maybe Gen Y is just a write-off.

[Deathcries]

I pay a crap ton of taxes. I pay dollars a week in taxes at a minimum. I pay way too much.

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The poll question is not relevant to our situation. Neither are the bolded questions in the OP.

To be brief, the US currently needs both tax and regulation cuts for businesses.

The long version:

The current situation in the US is that class warfare has propelled Barack Obama into the White House. The media and the democrats are on a full assault to blame our problems on the wealthy or the business sector. This is not solving anything. Instead, it is dealing tremendous damage to the economy. Businesses have pulled in their horns. They are not being aggressive with expanding and hiring. Instead, they sit on their cash. This has led to a pitifully weak "recovery" where the labor participation rate has plummeted. The data is rigged to benefit the democrats and Obama, by omitting long-term unemployed from the numbers.

Class warfare must end for a recovery to take place.

We as a society must repudiate basically everything Obama stands for to get the economy moving again. We need to reframe the debate as the people and business working together to grow the economy. And that means cutting taxes for business. That means cutting regulations for business. And they need to be DEEPER than what is required because this is about rebuilding trust. We need to show the business sector that we are serious about rejecting Obama, class warfare, and blaming businesses for our problems.

We did this before, in the late 70s and early 80s, under Carter and Reagan. We spent the 60s and most of the 70s blaming the business sector and punishing the business sector, and it led to a great economic malaise. We repudiated that idea and embraced the business sector. And that led to to a 20 year boom.

We have forgot the lessons of the 60s and 70s and must relearn them, hopefully not the hard way. Class warfare sucks. Blaming the business sector sucks. Get over it. Unless Generation Y wants to wind up in their 40s with no career, they need to do some serious soul-searching about what they believe. But maybe it will be up to Generation Z to clean up the mess. Maybe Gen Y is just a write-off.

Yes, but if we keep blaming businesses and taxing them, they'll get the idea and go to China and Mexico. Liberals will be happy everywhere because than everyone in America will be impoverished and equal.

[BellaSwoosh]

I dunno man. I see the people demanding the rich pay more in taxes but what is 50% after a shit ton of tax breaks and loopholes? Also, what about capital gains?

Long story short, I see people (all over) demanding stuff that sounds sexy and makes a good campaign speech but actually amounts to no change at all. If we need the revenue, just stop the tax breaks man. 100% of a 35% tax rate is more than 10% of a 50% tax rate.

[ringpriest]

I find it interesting how 46.6% of the people in the US don't pay federal taxes yet they tell those who do pay taxes they need to pay more to "pay their fare share".

You're confusing "income tax" with "all federal taxes", and leaving out federal excise taxes and payroll taxes:





And that's before getting into less concrete things.

[BellaSwoosh]

I pay a crap ton of taxes. I pay dollars a week in taxes at a minimum. I pay way too much.

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Yes, but if we keep blaming businesses and taxing them, they'll get the idea and go to China and Mexico. Liberals will be happy everywhere because than everyone in America will be impoverished and equal.

I do agree here. Look at Apple for crying out loud

[Endus]

Yes, but if we keep blaming businesses and taxing them, they'll get the idea and go to China and Mexico. Liberals will be happy everywhere because than everyone in America will be impoverished and equal.

This is nonsense.

1> If they go overseas, they now have to ship their products back to the USA, as well as completely reworking their materials sourcing and trade arrangements, not to mention ensuring that their new host country has people sufficiently educated to replace those American workers. While these aren't impossible, they're not "we can fuck off to anywhere" easy, either.

2> Tariffs are a thing. If the USA really wanted to take a stand against this, they can easily implement strong tariffs that more than offset any potential savings. Sure, the company can just refuse to sell to the USA, but if the USA is its prime market, then they're either going to go bankrupt, or massively scale down their operations. Giving up most of your business because you want to insist on slightly higher profit margins isn't just bad business, it's blatantly stupid. Tariffs aren't being used because American jobs are, more or less, just fine. The USA is shifting, like most of the Western world, from a service economy into a knowledge economy. Complaining about the loss of manufacturing jobs is really not the smoking gun you think it is.

3> Plenty of nations have higher corporate tax rates than the USA, and yet still have corporations and businesses based there. As would be obvious, if you bothered to check. Which pretty much means your entire claim here is complete bunk.