Balance T18 - BiS Progression Discussion

[Borawa]

With the upcoming progression Tier item levels released along with a total gear list I thought now would be the best time to begin discussion on a BiS list for balance.

All Tier Sets are in Tier 2 Ilvl range
Hellfire Assault->Hellfire Council = Tier 1 (720)
Kilrogg->Socrethar = Tier 2 (725)
Fel Lord->Mannoroth = Tier 3 (730)
Archimonde = Tier 4 (735)

Each Tier increase is about a ~4.5% increase in main stat (int) to a maximum ~9% from Tier 1 to Tier 3.

M = Mastery, H = Haste, C = Critical Strike, MS = Multistrike, V = Versatility.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2094323475


Credit to Alame for the above spreadsheet. Mine was a little off and also written in the early stages of the PTR.

Weapon 1h/OH = Fel lord Fist/Mannoroth off (T3(372M/187H))
Helm = Oathclaw Helm Tier Set (327M/212C) Kormok
Neck = Xhul’horac Neck (T3(213M/104C))
Shoulders = Oathclaw Tier Set (263M/142H)) Xhul
Back = Kilrogg Cloak (T2 (126M/178MS))
Chest = Oathclaw Tier Set (339H/200M) Mannoroth
Bracer = Fel Lord Bracers (T3(213C/104M))
Hands = HEROIC Archi Hands (T1 equiv(276H/110M))
Waist = HEROIC Archi Waist (T1 equiv(259M/127C))
Legs = Oathclaw Tier Set (223M/316MS) Gorefiend
Feet = Tyrant Velhari Feet (T3(157C/226H))
Ring = Tyrant Valhari Ring (T3(186M/131MS))
Ring = Legendary Ring 735 (188M/130V)
Trinket 1 = HEROIC Archi Trinket (Starsurge has a 76% chance to also trigger Starfall)
Trinket 2 = Hellfire High Council Trinket (T1(478M/1316 int for 20 seconds on a 1 minute CD))
Trinket AoE = Unblinking Gaze of Sethe (T2(502INT/14357 Damage in a line in the target direction with one proc every 10-12 seconds))

Total Secondary Stats:
3049 Mastery = 70.4%
1170 Haste = 13%
813 Critical Strike = 12.4%
625 Multistrike = 9.5%
130 Versatility = 1%


In short I would use the heroic Archimonde gloves as my progression off piece. I would use a Tier 3 main hand off hand combo but I would also settle with the Gorefiend Staff (T2(327M/212C)). I could not get the Hellfire Council trinket to pop on the prepull but if it did it seems it will be a very good trinket with a strong uptime for single target.

I am open to thoughts and criticism. Hoping to receive some feedback!

[dark666105]

Wasn't the class based trinket extremely underwhelming compared to the other trinkets for us?

[theburned]

I have some doubts for the archimonde trinket though, but other options aren't super good either, thinking either chipped soul prism or prophecy of fear.

seeing the other stats this low I would assume chipped is very well worth it, and idk, while mastery is a very good stat, is it really worth getting 3 times as much of it as any other stat, seems like other stats would actually have a higher value at some point.

any current 706 trinket should be quite valuable as well.

[Kilma]

Tested the archi trinket. starfall's dont stack sadly. With no extra stats i cant think it will be very useful as the shadow cleave trinket will give us that much needed "burst" aoe since i've seen a bunch of fights with stacked adds.

Don't forget aBout the god-teir healing trinket. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/i...s-gift&bonus=0

Even if the mastery is a bug and is instead supposed to be spirit. The int is what will make it BiS for every caster.

Side note: The archi trinket is actually almost unusable when there are fights with controlled add phases. You are either pigeon-holed into not using the glyph, which when you need to kill a bunch of ads quickly, requires sunfire to at least be able to cleave them all. Think the trinket is poorly designed because of that release of control of our starfall.

I can't see any reason why you would use archi trinket over shadow cleave one since that cleave one also has intellect on it.

[Deleted]

I feel like Archimonde trinket is really bad you don't have any stats on it. It will be probably best to craft boots and back with new mats since there is no combination of mastery crit or mastery haste in raid on those slots.

[Borawa]

When I made the post I was primarily thinking about single target hence putting in the double trinket 2 slot with an AoE trinket. With that being said id like to go further in depth on my views of the Archimonde trinket and how I feel it may warrant a change in playstyle based primarily on certain fights and in certain groups.

This is not a trinket for fights like Hellfire Assault or Gorefiends where we can chain starfall with little consequence. In fights like those there is an add priority but from testing it seems there are no large gaps in add priority meaning that there is either no time or very short time where you have to allot charges to starsurge to burst down a target over using starfall to hit everything.

Then there are fights like Kilrogg and Iskar. In a fight like Kilrogg I noticed that I was not using starfall very often and was using a fair amount of starsurge charges on super high priority targets. If a blood spawns I did not hit starfall and hoped the raid got it, I nuked it myself. Same with the salivating bloodthirsters. I would starfall when we across because there would normally be only 2 targets and maybe I would starfall if I had extra charges but the consequence for not focusing single target dps on that fight is very high. On a fight like Iskar you are focusing the boss with single target then you get to the add phases. In those add phases you have 1 or 2 large adds dependent on transition that need to die quickly alongside 10 adds that literally dont have an entry in the dungeon journal they just hit things. In this case yes you could starfall but you could also just increase your single target damage on the one or two targets and then get the bonus of getting starfall to boost your dps on the other lower priority targets.

Pretty much I would use this trinket situationally. If there is a high priority add fight I would focus on a single target rotation and then get rewarded with damage that is of lesser importance on less targets. Dont get me wrong everything must die but some things need to die faster and this trinket rewards a non padding playstyle. Think back to progression Iron Maidens. You reach the last phase and your raid leader says, "Nobody fucking aoe! Single target Marak i'm gonna check the logs." You can top meters with cds and with a few lucky procs for doing the exact same thing you would have previously done.

P.S Also a usable trinkets for main add/main boss fight and single target small intermission fights.

TL;DR It is my opinion that this is a very good trinket for fights that are 1) Any boss fight you would not starfall (single target or boss/one add) and 2) Any fight with a large disparity in add priority where you spend time single targeting one add regardless of amount of adds.

[Juni]

Generally I feel like Archi trinket is pretty horrible in most situations. The proc chance is just too low to actually be worth it in situations where it would actually be appealing. I think Unblinking Gaze of Sethe from Shadow-Lord Iskar and Desecrated Shadowmoon Insignia looks like the best for single target, while Intuition's Gift from Kilrogg is a really strong contender.

A quick 5 min dummy test and Unblinking Gaze (695) did about 4,3% of my damage.



That said, what about the other Prophecy of Fear from Mannoroth? Meh. Pretty hard to get a good % of damage done due to it cleaving onto the tanking dummy, but the breakdown ended up like this:



Just keep in mind that Prophecy hit 2 targets everytime it procced when Gaze only hit 1 target.

Not only that but Prophecy doesnt proc from Starfall or dots, u have to hit it with Starfire, Wrath or Starsurge to actually proc the damage from the debuff, which means that the trinket will be pretty annoying if u have to run or ure in Lunar (simply because of the slower cast time of SF vs Wrath). So unless we do some wonky shit and spam wrath regardless of eclipse to get the most out of it I think it will be rather meh for us. Think it would be drastically better on an arcane mage or destro lock.

But like always: Math plx.

[Deleted]

The healer trinket and the mastery with int proc will more than likely be our bis trinkets. Even if they change the mastery on the 'healer' trinket to spirit, the insane static int with a stupid amount of crit on use will still destroy the other trinkets.

[huth]

The healer trinket and the mastery with int proc will more than likely be our bis trinkets. Even if they change the mastery on the 'healer' trinket to spirit, the insane static int with a stupid amount of crit on use will still destroy the other trinkets.

Eh, if it's meant to be a healer trinket, you can expect them to change it so it is. I'd not base anything on that until the patch is live.

[Juni]

Eh, if it's meant to be a healer trinket, you can expect them to change it so it is. I'd not base anything on that until the patch is live.

Well I can see every caster wanting the trinket so it's a possibility indeed.

[Deleted]

the mastery with proc int its not the "healer" trinket everyone is talking about, its the int/mastery with crit use (1.3 min cd), its a bug i think its suposed to be spirit/mastery with crit use.

[Deleted]

the mastery with proc int its not the "healer" trinket everyone is talking about, its the int/mastery with crit use (1.3 min cd), its a bug i think its suposed to be spirit/mastery with crit use.

I had heard, that it would be the mastery that would be changed to spirit, which if thats the case it would still be better, but if it's the int they changing then it might not be so good.

[Deleted]

There is another cloak.

Sparkburnt Welder's Cloak
194 crit 95 haste

^= 289 stats

while the cloak you use is Shawl of Sanguinary Rituaal
126 Mastery
178 Multistrike

^ = 304 stats

I had like to know if crit + haste would be better than mastery/multistrike. since multistrike isn't like that good. while crit + haste is really really close and the small mastery nerf we get which lowers our mastery stat weight a little, so all 3 stats gets even closer to each other.

Caster Trinkets T18. (without concluding Class Trinket)

Iron Reaver Piston
341 Intellect
200 Critical Strike
200 Haste

Desecrated Shadowmoon Insigna
361 Mastery
Equip: Your spells and abilities have a chance to grant 994 intellect for 20 sec. (approximately 1.00 procs per minute)

Intuition's Gift
379 Intellect
379 Mastery
Use: Increases Critical Strike by 3753 for 15 sec ( 1min 30 secs cd)

Unblinking Gaze of sethe
379 Intellect
Equip: Your damaging spells have a chance to fire a beam of blacklight in the target's direction. dealing 10.852 Shadow damage to all targets that it passes through. (Approximately 5.63 procs per minute)

Prophecy of Fear
397 Intellect
Equip: Your direct spell damage has a chance to apply Mark of Doom for 10 sec. Direct spell damage you do againts Market target triggers an explosion for 5.735 Shadow Damage. (Approximately 1.50 procs per minute)


Class Trinket is bad imo

Because on encounters where you need starfall, it would be stupid to risk starsurge and not get starfall as it would lead to a dps loss, so unless it's 100%. it is bad imo.

on encounter where you need starsurge, as Single Target. starfall is shit anyway and doesn't benefit you almost at all.

keep in mind you've no stats what so ever from class trinkets. so you lose that too

So since this is a discussion thread. can you please tell me scenario's where the trinket is actually worth it ? so far i can't seem to make it sense.

on our opener we are most likely using all our starsurges. so it's not like we are saving our starsurges for starfall to expire to fire a new one.

on ptr, it does reset our starfall. up to 12 sec. but still i still do not see where it could be any good. beside a good reason for afk on trash.

[Kilma]

Class trinket would be useful on fights like protectors in SoO and Iron maidens in BRF (Haven't looked into fights in Hellfire) Sustained AoE while you continue nuking the boss you are trying to push.

Basically want it so keep ur starfall uptime high on 3+ target cleave.

Watching the archimonde fight, the trinket may be useful since always seems to be constant stream of ads.

Now if other trinkets outshine it, which is possibility with actual stats on them, then yeah it is unusable.

I wish it would add depth to our spec like some of the other class trinkets, but looks like they want boomkins to be pretty simple.

[Deleted]

Class trinket would be useful on fights like protectors in SoO and Iron maidens in BRF (Haven't looked into fights in Hellfire) Sustained AoE while you continue nuking the boss you are trying to push.

Basically want it so keep ur starfall uptime high on 3+ target cleave.

Watching the archimonde fight, the trinket may be useful since always seems to be constant stream of ads.

Now if other trinkets outshine it, which is possibility with actual stats on them, then yeah it is unusable.

I wish it would add depth to our spec like some of the other class trinkets, but looks like they want boomkins to be pretty simple.

But on mythic it's 79% let's add another 1% which is 80%. Edit : Ow it just got increased to 87 % Chance.

so it's 4 out of 5 times we get a starfall. Edit :5 out of 6 times we get starfall with the changes but ye lets see if it still get changed.

if you've 0 procs and get 1 proc. Would you starfall here? for most damage. (in case you do, your class trinket is useless, as the effect is ignored + stats)

or do you throw a starsurge, and fail to proc starfall. where you do almost no aoe damage. and again no stats.


I mean i get it, if it procs it's nice. but there is still the risk of it being useless. which is why i'm worried. 4 out of 5 is high odds, but we must keep in mind that we will get 1 out of 5 situations. the question is just, is it worth it? to know that your 5th starsurge won't proc starfall, and that on opener your most likely burning through your procs.


More Edits

After some testings. I can say that of the 6 trinkets we have

Prophecy of Fear

Unblinking Gaze of sethe

Intuition's Gift

Desecrated Shadowmoon Insigna

Iron Reaver Piston

Seed of Creation (Class Trinket)


We kinda could ignore Unblinking Gaze of sethe, Prophecy of Fear and Iron Reaver Piston. Since they are kinda weak compared to the other 4 trinkets.

Unblinking Gaze of sethe. I really expect some changes on it though. it works exactly like penetration shot from iron maidens/klaxxi. that it hits all targets between you and the boss + the boss himself. So yeah i dont see which situation it would be good in as it's pretty rarely we see adds being infront of the boss and not beside.

Iron Reaver Piston gives straight up stats which is nice, but it's not intellect crit + mastery so it could have been better, but ye don't think it's designed for boomies. the stats are fine, but it's definitely not BiS.

Prophecy of Fear is kinda nice, i liked it, you get a debuff on 1 target, and each starsurge, wrath/starfire will make your target explode, think like mind shear how it explodes on targets. but the bad part of it is, that you do not know which target gets hit by it. you can't control it. so if you have starfall. you could get the debuff on an almost dying target. So i do not see it be efficient as BiS even thou it's nice cleave for fights like iron maidens.

Now we have 3 trinkets left.

Intuition's Gift.

Desecrated Shadowmoon Insigna

Seed of Creation I kinda like this class trinket a bit more after the buff to 87% even thou i had still love it as 100%. but ye will add it to the usefull list.

Honestly I think all 3 trinkets should be used. i think they are situational and I believe those 3 trinkets are better than the other 3 trinkets at any given situation as a balance boomie Keep in mind it's still a discussion, all these are just my opinions.

[Deleted]

the bouncing ilvls, what a pain in the....

Anyways, my 2 cents. Note that these are based on the values currently presented on PTR

Intuition's Gift, really simple, if it doesn't get changed 100% bis, if the int goes, it's trash.

Seed of creation, probably sustained cleave BiS otherwise thrash, unlikely that the extra starfall will mean profit for single target. However could see some potential in add heavy fights if the % is high enough on the HC version, i dislike the idea of spamming SS to gain SF procs when you need them though. Mythic version of this trinket is completely up to debate on how good it is, and likely only simcraft can tell us a definitive answer.

Prophecy of Fear, if it remains like this, simply put not for us, we just don't have a reliable source of direct damage that would justify this trinket with it's current proc rate. If we gain control of the effect or the mechanic gets changed then this trinket will deserve another look. otherwise trash. Only thing that supports this trinket is the high ilvl.

Unblinking gaze of Sethe, The more suited to us version of Prophecy of Fear, simply put it's decent if you only hit 1 target, it's awesome if it can hit multiple targets, high proc rate makes it better on this quick glance, even though prophecy of fear is 5ilvl higher.¨

Desecrated Shadowmoon Insignia, the official meh of the tier, imo. Obviously it's quite strong, with the 20 second int proc, but tbh with the 10 ilvl downgrade it seems to be under budgeted. With the mastery being slightly under the BRF proc average, as well as the intellect, it seems to be a trinket that would be OP if it were correctly balanced. Needless to say though that gaining a double proc on this on pull would be pure gold. Still, with all of the limiting factors in mind, the mythic version of this is on my "most likely to be bis" list, even though it's highly dependent on gaining a proc when you have your CD's up, which might result in a even more constricted CD rotation than what it already seems to be in HFC.

Iron reaver piston, similar to DSI it seems under budgeted, it does give us a nice static amount of stats which seems to be inline with the mythic BRF averages. The idea of having a static stat trinket with a 5-10 ilvl deficit simply kills me inside, but regardless of that unless the Gaze can prove out to be worthy of our interest, this trinket remains on the list "probably bis". Needless to say that this trinket isn't even worth considering over goren soul if you have the 1 difficulty higher version, even more so if it's WF.

Overall, it seems that the ilvl difference between the trinkets will cause a fck ton of issues, currently the list would seem something like:
Intuition's Gift (unchanged) > DSI > IRP/UGS > PoF. The reason why IRP is so high on the list, is because it scales with our mastery where as the other two options don't. Especially the PoF can do some nice BL opening burst, but getting it reliably during solar and your 3 min cycle is unlikely. I didn't include SoC to this list because it varies too much on a fight by fight basis. As a side note, i would recommend everyone to hunt for BRF mythic WF trinkets, as if things stay as they are, they will stick around for a while, depending of your progress speed of course

[lappee]

Theres a bug with Prophecy of Fear as the explosion doesnt trigger from Moonfire but does from Sunfire. We'll just have to see which is the case.

[Deleted]

That class trinket should be 100% + something to be good, I mean it not being 100% is just dumb.

[Juni]

Theres a bug with Prophecy of Fear as the explosion doesnt trigger from Moonfire but does from Sunfire. We'll just have to see which is the case.

Wut.. I ran multiple dungeons with it, and it never procced from anything but wrath/sf/ss. It did proc from multistrikes, but I still think it's worse than almost every other trinket in t18 with the exception of class trinket.

Edit: Now I actually understood what u meant. The initial proc of the debuff is bugged.

[Deleted]

Even if the int goes on the healer trinket, the on use crit is absolutely massive, it gives close to 5k crit mythic version.