Sunday morning rant about Subtlety design in WoD

[Deleted]

Hello!

This is my first thread here, been lurking for years but never felt such an urge to spark up discussion before. I play in a guild named Transcend on Silvermoon Alliance. As topic states, I'll shed light on my opinion about the design/designflaws of rogue - particularly sub - in WoD, focus entirely on damagedealing, the amount of choice involved and what I think could be changed for better.


To start off, quick explanation for any dummies new to the spec (a TLDR);
-Keep up snd/rupture.
-Use dance/vanish on cd and in smart favour of the encounter.
-Try and bump your average eviscerate higher(less evis with no fw, more evis with fw) by pooling prior to vanish/dance.

Backstab/Ambush + Rupture
The first thing that I personally feel is clunky, weird, unnecessary addition is Sinister Calling. It sometimes causes such immensive disappointment with planning ahead, what you HAVE TO do next is sometimes so quickly shifting. Seeing as now you're already getting around 35-40% passive multistrike with mythic gear, and >70% with Kromog's trinket, I think this interaction almost completely removes the choice and depth Find Weakness supposedly gave you. The whole point of the spec could and should be maximizing the damage you do inside these small windows where you've used dance or vanish to ignore armor, and pound high amounts of instant burst damage. Having to use rupture during this window - even though you prepared the best you could - just because you got 'lucky' and got 3 double multistrike ambushes doesn't really feel well designed. On top of that, the only on-use trinket has multistrike as it's effect.

I have two ideas to make the spec more rewarding to play.
One; Leave the duration of rupture intact or remove this thing altogether. They're seemingly nerfing the value of mastery for whatever reason in 6.2 and there's no multistrike procs on trinkets that'd bring you above 100%, its highly unlikely mastery will pull ahead of multistrike, meaning this will get even clunkier with higher gear.
Two: Make vanish give you charges of ambush-usage, rather than limit it by time, and make ambush not interact with rupture. This would give you far more control over where and with what resources/durations you initiate the 10 second burst windows, and make shadowdance smoother.


New set bonuses
I know it's all still on PTR and might change drastically.
-You would end up using vanish on the opener, overlapping with shadowdance to extend master of subtlety + 2-set damage increase. I reckon you'd use it to bump combopoints and damage during other dances too.
-Gaining 5 combopoints that dont count towards anticipation whenever you use Vanish; You miss timing your last vanishcerate(Eviscerate) right after HaT proc at 5 combopoints and <20s vanish cooldown remaining, results in you having more than 0 combopoints when you press vanish. Assuming you have good durations of SnD and Rupture as you should, you'll dump these extra combopoints to do a wet-noodle eviscerate right before you get a FW window. Hooray.
-The more backstab/ambush multistrikes you get, the less eviscerates you will have to reduce vanish cooldown. Hooray, getting lucky to get unlucky.

What I think the setbonuses could be;
-Give shadow dance / vanish 2 charges. Ignoring fights like gruul, I think this would add a lot of depth and choice. For example, two tools and two agendas in Blast Furnace; You want to demolish one of the primal elementalists in one slagbomb, you can use your 2x10 second dances, letting you actively smack ambush and eviscerate for 20 seconds, but lose on 20 seconds of total findweakness / You struggle on bossdamage in phase 3, you can maximize your find weakness and effectively dps by using 2 dances inside bloodlust, giving you 40 seconds of find weakness.
-Make ambush increase the damage of eviscerate, stacking to 2.
-Make hemo/rupture ticks give you energy + passive increase to energy pool.

Fix subterfuge
Just like glyphed vendetta got fixed, you'd expect the double subterfuge with vanish glyph would've gotten fixed since the launch.


Some form of choice in talents for damage
Some small minor detail to the talents would be king. For the entire expansion, not any of the 3 specs really had a choice for what talents to choose.
DfA, Shuriken are completely ignored, Venomrush for sub and assasination over Shadow Reflection is a joke. MfD for combat was a good idea until BRF set bonuses. You'd end up wasting more combopoints through revealing strike than you'd gain per minute.

Take Destruction or Shaman for example, they had multitudes of different builds to play with, obviously some not as cookiecutter as others. Warlocks had Charred Remains and Servitude, even Cataclysm to choose from. Shamans had Primal badass elementals, better unleash and more elementals, all of which had their pros and cons per encounter.

[Deleted]

The funniest thing is that if you run Shadow Focus or Nightstalker you can never use Premeditation with Vanish in T18 xoxo

They really spend THAT MUCH time designing rogue class.

[Deleted]

The funniest thing is that if you run Shadow Focus or Nightstalker you can never use Premeditation with Vanish in T18 xoxo

They really spend THAT MUCH time designing rogue class.

Me : "Well you can just macro premedition into Ambush so it still works
You : "Vanish gives you 5 CPs and Premeditation does not add Anticipation CPs"
Me : "Well just Eviscerate before ambush/premed macro to get rid of the CPs"
You : "If you Eviscerate you lose your stealthed state hence no ambush and no premed"
Me : "Well jus-[sudden realisation] OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

To be serious, extremely interesting post, I also like the part where you talk about MfD issues with Combat 6.2. Besides the CPs loss due to Revealing Strike before Evi, I can't even imagine not running Anticipation with the random Adre Rush procs from the 2set

[Jarvid]

Well you could actually use the 5CP for SnD, even if that would be a waste

[Happyducky]

I was thinking of getting into a rogue, but the 90 premade testing I've done with sub just leaves me with the impression that the spec is clunky and the t18 bonuses just make it worse. I really wish there were lvl 100 premades but alas...

Maybe I need to be lvl 100, but the vanish interaction with anticipation and the tier bonus just confuses me and doesn't seem like it would flow well at all. Plus premeditation, trying to use that in time felt awful. Like I said, I'm new to the spec coming from a ww monk, but it just feels like my monk's rotation is naturally much smoother. Bonus to combat spec for having an easy to use cleave, though!

I know it isn't 100% helpful to get feedback from someone who isn't very experienced with the class, but just figured I'd throw in my feelings towards the spec I'm trying to learn. Does it get better?

[Xanatu]

You touch on a lot of good points here. I really think the spec would feel 100% better if they'd just remove the bleed tick-down from multistrike. You're exactly right that it ruins your planning. This whole spec is apparently designed around thinking ahead and planning and the way multistrike interacts with bleeds ruins all of that. It was like a late afterthought that completely clunkified the spec for no apparent reason.

[mogglez]

As a lowly assassination rogue, who tried jumping into subtlety for a bit, I was immensely annoyed by the Sinister Calling/Multistrike/Rupture-dynamic and didn't find it enjoyable at all. So I'm just adding my echo to some of the thoughts already shared concerning that specific part of subtlety.

[Bryanator1989]

As a lowly assassination rogue, who tried jumping into subtlety for a bit, I was immensely annoyed by the Sinister Calling/Multistrike/Rupture-dynamic and didn't find it enjoyable at all. So I'm just adding my echo to some of the thoughts already shared concerning that specific part of subtlety.

This. I hate that multistrike advances rupture ticks. Think it would be better if it just caused the tick to deal damage twice and keep duration the same.

[Raic]

Did Blizz ever say anything more on the Subterfuge+Vanish glyph bug?

I know it was broken, they fixed it, then it broke again. I've always felt weird using it...I don't know if they're intentionally leaving it in or if at some point in the future they'll randomly fix it again.

I really dislike near mandatory glyphs. Energy and Vanish have been taking up 2 of my slots for most of this expansion, with Hemo being necessary on a few fights. I would like to have some choices and I'm pretty sure that's what they intended back when they overhauled the talent tree. With a few other 100s I've noticed that glyph slots for other classes are mostly left up to player preference, having more of an impact on utility/defensives than anything else, I very much prefer that.

I know glyphs are a minor part of it all, but it's still something that particularly bothers me about the rogue class.

[adynn]

This. I hate that multistrike advances rupture ticks. Think it would be better if it just caused the tick to deal damage twice and keep duration the same.

To be honest I always thought multistrikes advancing bleeds would have fit better on feral druid rather than sub rogue.

I guess Blizzard wanted to shift sub's damage out of FW a bit though.

[Roholola]

I have the same perspective as, Mikerino, the design of "sinister calling / twist the blade" to advance rupture ticks, is more hassle than fun to play with. Just because I did that one extra eviscerate in "window of opportunity", and now I'm at 3 cb's and can't utilize the last few seconds of EA on boss, because if I get "lucky" with multistrike procc, and if I use backstab now, then rupture might fall off if I get another procc, and I can't refresh rupture with only 3 / 4 CB's. Yes, I did a lot of damage with the rupture duration being almost instant, but this can leave you in a weird situation with 0 energy, a lot of time left on EA,SnD almost falling off and rupture almost falling off.


This design often makes me feel like I'm being punished for being "lucky" with RNG, and as you stated, even though you prepare for situations like this with anticipation stacks, you might get "too lucky".



I too can't understand the mastery nerf. It feels like they want to design the class, based on the current tier, not balance / perforamance overall. Buffing mastery with say, increase the duration / damage on rupture would be an overall buff,
not just based on tier, but for the class at all stages of the game. If mastery increased the duration of rupture, and / or the damage then this would be more lucrative, as you then can have more proccs from "Twist the blade" before you have to refresh it.
If the design is for rogues to not just do damage in "windows of oportunity", then this must surely be better ? I haven't done any actual calculations on this, so I can't say how much better it would actually be.



Fix subterfuge, I completely agree. All the energy pooling, and the mess it with make with the implications off 6.2, it will be overwhelming I believe. The whole case regarding this is also a bit wired. Blizzard said that it was a bug, and fixed it at some point,
but then it came back again. First impressions at WoD launch was that blizz wanted to fix it again, but then based on the state of rogues they just left it because rogues are / were under-performing.



Blizzard stated that they want more streamline classes, so that people new to the class / game don't have to read 100+ pages with rotation, pre-pull shenanigans, stat-weights +++. If any sub rogue only read the "core ability" post in spell-book,
They will be far of the actuall playstyle. Also, where does it say that subterfuge with glyph increase the duration of vanish ?




Other than that, there are only three things I can think of, that I don't like with sub rogue atm :


Shadow Reflection
- When applying rupture during SR, it's hard to differentiate the one you have on target, and the one applied from Shadow Reflection, as they have the same spell id.

Backstab
- Want to be able to use it what ever the position of the boss, not just from behind. Rename it, if that's the case. So annoying when doing bosses like Kromog / Gruul. Hemo is a joke, and since they want rogues to play pool energy playstyle I often energy cap.

Premedition
- Should be able to add to Anticipation stacks, just makes it less of a hassle.





Some final words.

With the current state of sub, I don't feel like I do much else then energy pool, backstab / ambush, refresh SND and rupture, and the occasional eviscerate. Still running trinket from Butcher, so I have to be careful about the multistrike proc, so that rupture don't fall off. It's not like the rotation is hard, I can easily have 100% uptime on SND, and close to 100% uptime on rupture, but there is so much downtime with the energy pooling for the "small dance" and , and my general thought about the spec, is that it can be more intriguing than it currently is. Like combat with 4p t17, you can "get lucky" with proccs and it just feels really good, but then again, Killingmyselfspree is a whole other discussion for combat spec.

[Deleted]

I too can't understand the mastery nerf. It feels like they want to design the class, based on the current tier, not balance / perforamance overall. Buffing mastery with say, increase the duration / damage on rupture would be an overall buff,
not just based on tier, but for the class at all stages of the game. If mastery increased the duration of rupture, and / or the damage then this would be more lucrative, as you then can have more proccs from "Twist the blade" before you have to refresh it.
If the design is for rogues to not just do damage in "windows of oportunity", then this must surely be better ? I haven't done any actual calculations on this, so I can't say how much better it would actually be.

Backstab
- Want to be able to use it what ever the position of the boss, not just from behind. Rename it, if that's the case. So annoying when doing bosses like Kromog / Gruul. Hemo is a joke, and since they want rogues to play pool energy playstyle I often energy cap.

Premedition
- Should be able to add to Anticipation stacks, just makes it less of a hassle.

I agree with most of what you. Indeed it would be nice if they change the mastery to increase the duration of rupture, as it can tick down very fast from just applying it to almost be under 12 sec. duration left. Would make the spec work a lot better and smother imo. The "Twist the blade" thing seems like a great ideá on paper but when you get to play the spec it really messes with your rotaion, like setting up for a prober SD and SR mid fight, trying to plan your rupture so that you won't have to refresh it a few seconds before your trinkets proc/come off cooldown.

I don't like the idea of changing Backstab, they did the same thing with feral druids, that had to be behind the target in order to use shred, and could only use mangel from the front. To me it really felt like the requirements for being a better player got lowered quite a bit, no longer did ferals have to be careful about positioning, as it did't really matter. Now with the backstabbing requireing you to be behind the target, it makes it more fun to play as we have to think more about our positioning. Personally I never use hemo on fights like Kromog/Gruul it has never been a problem for me to get behind the boss or attack from the side.

[Deleted]

Hemo is a joke

This I don't agree with. Surely your point was hemo doesn't do significant amounts of damage - what it is really god's gift for is the situations where youre really starved on combopoints after getting more multistrike procs than you expect, and you're running out of rupture and slice and dice at the same time. It safetynets your Sanguinary Veins, and has almost the same dpet/damage per energy as backstab. This is why personally I don't prefer keeping hemo up 100%, since at the times you need it for the purpose I stated above, if it's already on the target the dpet will be less because you'd only partially refresh the dot.

[Willoughby]

It safetynets your Sanguinary Veins

It has to be glyphed to do this, which is a shame because it's a pretty awful ability without that function.

[Deleted]

MfD is'nt a useless talent as you pointed out, for combat before 4p it's a dps gain, and even with 4 piece it's gain if you can get at least 1 reset every 3 minutes and 45 seconds.
On multi target fights it's obviously a great talent for any spec.

And concerning glyph of hemo, it's is not at all mandatory. It's a way to easy things a little yes, but that doesn't change the DPS gain that can be found with it depending on the usage you have with it. Running vanish/energy/sprint can in fact be a dps gain over hemo/vanish/energy on some fights.

Out of subject but there are others things thats, imo, are far more concerning than the rogue spec. For exemple how the legendary ring will work (for this alone i will never go in pug anymore, and i know i'm not the only one) (and many specs without burst will have much less utility overall in progression raiding, and that's simply bad design).

[Deleted]

I like sub the way it is, sinister calling makes rogue more dynamic, it would be too much like assassination if you didnt have to adjust on the fly. That is what gives the spec the skill cap. Micro management during encounters gives a more engaging play style and gives the opportunity to get every little bit of dps. For example I try not to ever plan to evisc at 5 combo points if my rupture is like 12 seconds duration, until i have 3 anticipation stacks, and using hemo is really good to fill in times you may think you are going to drop you rupture.

[Deleted]

Been running combat because of this annoyance since our guild dropped from wrank 200 to whoknowswhat-number since minmaxin aint worth it if youre casual. Too bad that the combat has its own issues too (once in a while bugging 4piece) and being completely on tanks mercy during killmespree which accounts for 2% of our single target damage.
I miss t16 sub... a lot

[wombats23]

Honest question: Do these multistrike rupture advancing procs result in lower DPS in the long run? Because as long as reapplying a 5 cp rupture (even during FW windows) is a DPS gain, then I don't see an issue. Dynamic decision making is keeps sub interesting IMO.

[T18Z]

Honest question: Do these multistrike rupture advancing procs result in lower DPS in the long run? Because as long as reapplying a 5 cp rupture (even during FW windows) is a DPS gain, then I don't see an issue. Dynamic decision making is keeps sub interesting IMO.

I'd argue the cataclysm playstyle of subtlety was much better design and far more difficult and dynamic. The current one is quite horrible.

I much preferred snapshotting hemo during find weakness, keeping recuperate up along with rupture and having to plan my combo points much further ahead of time. As I remember we didn't have the silly 30% refresh leeway with have now, and I believe SnD was also shorter back in catacslym. Furthermore deciding whether to evis vs rupture in the last few seconds of find weakness (even if it was 4cp) was I'd say more dynamic than what we have now... which is to frantically stare at rupture the whole fight, prio it over everything and prey you don't get too many procs and see it fly off your debuff bars.

I despise the relationship between multistrike and rupture. It's not even difficult, just pointless and unrewarding.

[Deleted]

I'd argue the cataclysm playstyle of subtlety was much better design and far more difficult and dynamic. The current one is quite horrible.

I much preferred snapshotting hemo during find weakness, keeping recuperate up along with rupture and having to plan my combo points much further ahead of time. As I remember we didn't have the silly 30% refresh leeway with have now, and I believe SnD was also shorter back in catacslym. Furthermore deciding whether to evis vs rupture in the last few seconds of find weakness (even if it was 4cp) was I'd say more dynamic than what we have now... which is to frantically stare at rupture the whole fight, prio it over everything and prey you don't get too many procs and see it fly off your debuff bars.

I despise the relationship between multistrike and rupture. It's not even difficult, just pointless and unrewarding.

100% agreed