Demonology warlock nerfs, what about casuals?

[Deleted]

According to blizz post, said numbers tuning are not sorted yet, so there is still hope they will revert some of the nerfs to demo!

More likely affliction won't be getting those buffs

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Like the numbers tuning that didn't happen until several weeks after HM Mythic was cleared?

For casual play, DPS is basically never the issue as to why I boss won't die; not standing in shit is. All three specs are more than good enough to kill bosses, especially once you've farmed gear for a month or so.

Although you'll still feel like you're being carried for the kill, which takes a lot of the fun out of it

Let's face it, the truth is, people get at least as much enjoyment out of being top dps as they do for the kill. Like racing cars, yeah, sure, you couldn't do it without the wheel changers, but we'd all much rather be the driver

It's pretty soulcrushing to do the very best you can, squeezing the last drop out of your class, and then watch a hunter effortlessly cruise past you

Sadly, it seems that reward is at least as much about picking the right class as it is about effort and skill

[Zevoa]

Let's face it, the truth is, people get at least as much enjoyment out of being top dps as they do for the kill. Like racing cars, yeah, sure, you couldn't do it without the wheel changers, but we'd all much rather be the driver

It's pretty soulcrushing to do the very best you can, squeezing the last drop out of your class, and then watch a hunter effortlessly cruise past you

Sadly, it seems that reward is at least as much about picking the right class as it is about effort and skill

When have Warlocks ever been mediocore this expansion? When haven't I been top 5 to top damage done to meaningful targets? Regardless of which of three specs I was playing at the time, whether it be in Highmaul or BRF.

I'll give you a hint, it's a five letter word.

So many players should just delete their dps meter entirely. Yes the Demo nerfs are a bit retarded as they currently stand but an MMO isn't a world of perfect balance. You'd think people would've realized that after 10 years of WoW. Someone is always going to be top and someone is always going to be gutter. If you're getting enjoyment out of your 'numbers' or your dps 'ranking' lol, then clearly some people are playing a very different game. DPS is a very bad measure of performance, especially on an individual player level.

[Deleted]

When haven't I been top 5 to top damage done to meaningful targets?

....

If you're getting enjoyment out of your 'numbers' or your dps 'ranking' lol, then clearly some people are playing a very different game. DPS is a very bad measure of performance, especially on an individual player level.

LOL in the same post you boast about being in the top five dps and then say you don't care about it

Good old "learn to play" ehh?

But I'm sure you're perfectly aware that there are classes that will always outperform warlock right now, given equal levels of skill, except those classes don't even need that

When have warlocks been mediocre? Errr all of it - for affliction certainly

[Zevoa]

LOL in the same post you boast about being in the top five dps and then say you don't care about it

Good old "learn to play" ehh?

But I'm sure you're perfectly aware that there are classes that will always outperform warlock right now, given equal levels of skill, except those classes don't even need that

When have warlocks been mediocre? Errr all of it - for affliction certainly

Yeah, I don't care. There's a difference between being direct and 'boasting'. Because if you're not terrible like most players you will be. I don't care about my place on a meter, I care about killing bosses as efficiently as possible.

[Jessicka]

Although you'll still feel like you're being carried for the kill, which takes a lot of the fun out of it

Let's face it, the truth is, people get at least as much enjoyment out of being top dps as they do for the kill. Like racing cars, yeah, sure, you couldn't do it without the wheel changers, but we'd all much rather be the driver

It's pretty soulcrushing to do the very best you can, squeezing the last drop out of your class, and then watch a hunter effortlessly cruise past you

Sadly, it seems that reward is at least as much about picking the right class as it is about effort and skill

You need to stop deluding yourself that the Hunter is "just cruising effortlessly". They're probably as hard as you are at dealing damage, meanwhile on every other fight being asked to jump through multiple hoops you'll never be asked to as well.

If ever on any class I feel like I'm doing something as effortlessly as you think it is to get ahead, it's pretty much always because that class has just got a better DPS tool for the job on that fight than others. Sometimes it's Warlock, sometimes its Fire Mage, sometimes its Hunter...

I'm not a super-hardcore Mythic raider. But I know when my class is underpowered, for Warlocks this happened twice: Highmaul and just after ICC launched. In both cases, it took a lot of bitching, but the class got its buffs. Right now, its fine, and it'll be fine going into HFC.

[Gaidax]

You need to stop deluding yourself that the Hunter is "just cruising effortlessly". They're probably as hard as you are at dealing damage, meanwhile on every other fight being asked to jump through multiple hoops you'll never be asked to as well.

Oh yeah, have a chuckle there... I am actually glad I'm not playing a hunter, because the moment there is any sort of bitch duty in the encounter it ends up falling on those guys.

I almost imagined Archimonde fight is like... so... we need to bring drinks to Khadgar so he can get his mana back once per 30 seconds... Sillicis, (our resident hunter bitch) fetch!

[Valq]

Although you'll still feel like you're being carried for the kill, which takes a lot of the fun out of it

Let's face it, the truth is, people get at least as much enjoyment out of being top dps as they do for the kill. Like racing cars, yeah, sure, you couldn't do it without the wheel changers, but we'd all much rather be the driver

It's pretty soulcrushing to do the very best you can, squeezing the last drop out of your class, and then watch a hunter effortlessly cruise past you

Sadly, it seems that reward is at least as much about picking the right class as it is about effort and skill

If you've got your DPS meters set to anything but the prio target(s) on progress, then you're doing it wrong, heck, you shouldn't really have your meter on at any point until the fight is over, be it progress or farm, the game isn't just about topping meters, if it is, go to LFR and enjoy yourself there.

Demo is arguably easier than BM hunters are, even on a single target nuke fight where you both don't need to move an inch for 5 minutes straight, let alone with the hunter having to do just about every nasty job in the game while trying to maintain their damage. I seriously have 0 idea where you've managed to find all this supposed complexion and difficulty when it comes to demo. This whole imaginary "skill" needed for demo is exclusive to you really.

The game has never been completely balanced and will never be. In MoP we absolutely dominated the meters with minimal effort, in ToT 60% of our damage came passively, in SoO we absolutely owned the place with snapshotting and soulswap and/or by playing destro, now that we -God forbid!- aren't absolutely light years ahead of every single class and spec in the game, we're suddenly shit? Lol, some people really need to get a grip.

[MycantrumX]

Demo is arguably easier than BM hunters are.

I would LOVE to hear this argument lol.

Lets not delude ourselves, but this also isn't about Hunters.

[Valq]

I would LOVE to hear this argument lol.

Lets not delude ourselves, but this also isn't about Hunters.

Let's hear your argument as to why on earth demo would be considered harder than any spec in the game bar arcane mages. Please do continue to read the first sentence of a post and replying to it, it really does make you look really smart.

[MycantrumX]

Let's hear your argument as to why on earth demo would be considered harder than any spec in the game bar arcane mages. Please do continue to read the first sentence of a post and replying to it, it really does make you look really smart.

There are a number of things I could cite - such as the number of secondary resources that Demo has to keep track of at all times and manage/use properly (MC stacks, DF, and minorly HoG charges), not being able to fully dps on the move, having a more complex rotation, etc.

Hunters to the shit jobs specifically because they have an easier rotation and the ability to dps on the move (and immune mechanics). Warlocks did a lot of that in SoO because we could dps on the move as well.

I read your entire post, I simply only needed to quote the one part. That is hardly a reflection on my intelligence. All you stated is they have to do their rotation while moving which doesn't impact them at all. Having to do a shit job during a fight doesn't mean your class is harder to play, it just means you're instead doing something that other people aren't. Does rogues pressing feint on Blackhand make them a really hard class to play?

You really don't provide any reasonable explanation as to why a BM hunter is more difficult to play than a Demo warlock.

[Zevoa]

Difficulty is relative, duh. No class/spec is 'hard' to play. Like, apparently dodging Bombs and Dominator Blast on IM makes it a difficult encounter for some, lol.

It's honestly hilarious that players who only latch on to specs when they are gimmicky or considerably strong in the current meta of the game, make inferences to the class being 'complex' when in reality it's far from it.

Serv/Serv, DB and Syn/Cata are some of the most brain dead iterations of Demonology since it's MoP revamp.

[zvvl]

Most classes/specs in the game aren't that complex, it's basically just what you can do to eek out that extra bit of DPS that really separates them, imo. The only real difficulty for Serv/Serv comes from using Chaos Wave properly and reacting to procs/making decisions if RNG goes against you. There is 'a lot' to keep track of relative to other classes but with WeakAuras it's all pretty easy to track.

and I say this as a pretty mediocre player.

[MycantrumX]

Difficulty is relative, duh. No class/spec is 'hard' to play. Like, apparently dodging Bombs and Dominator Blast on IM makes it a difficult encounter for some, lol.

It's honestly hilarious that players who only latch on to specs when they are gimmicky or considerably strong in the current meta of the game, make inferences to the class being 'complex' when in reality it's far from it.

Serv/Serv, DB and Syn/Cata are some of the most brain dead iterations of Demonology since it's MoP revamp.

What were the non-braindead versions since the revamp if you don't mind me asking. It's not that I believe it is overly difficult to play Demo at this point, but I do believe that its far more complex than any Hunter spec. Once you have your head around what needs to be done, every spec is relatively straight-forward. I think Demo has a lot more going on than other specs though and how you react to each situation changes in a subtle way.

[Zevoa]

What were the non-braindead versions since the revamp if you don't mind me asking. It's not that I believe it is overly difficult to play Demo at this point, but I do believe that its far more complex than any Hunter spec. Once you have your head around what needs to be done, every spec is relatively straight-forward. I think Demo has a lot more going on than other specs though and how you react to each situation changes in a subtle way.

None. 10char

[Zoldor]

If I could ask for one change to warlock overall it is the removal of Demonic Servitude. It turned Demo into the pad spec. If you are assigned any other duty than ST or AEing small pack adds DS is pretty garbage. You can't really help burn an add nearly as effectively your spells outside of a dump phase hurt next to nothing. You fail your rotation at any point as demo and it makes a rather small difference in overall effectiveness. If you don't fail the opener no one will even notice if you barely play correctly after that point especially in a ST scenario or a add pad scenario. Granted its great to melt adds so quick that others can just sit on the boss and set him on fire and end the fight faster, but how many guilds actually say just let the warlock get the adds, you know everyone wants a piece of that juicy pad damage. I'm glad for the death of Demo and the fact that I won't have to change 2 glyphs 20 times roughly a raid so that I can have fun on trash and then be useful on the boss. Generally removing Demonic Servitude and making the spells matter would have been a better go to for Demo. Then again I loathe DS.

[Astynax]

All classes are fairly simple to play. Swapping between 3 raiding characters of pally, warlock & warrior my binds largely stay the same. 1-3 generators, 4 big hit & execute ability, 5 AoE ability, Shift 1 stance/seal/meta change, shift 2 big CDs, Shift 3-5 talent stuff, Q interrupt, E racial etc.

Once you get decent at one its not hard to pick up other classes and throw similar abilities into the same binds.

Complexity isnt the issue, its the balancing. Never before have I felt so at the mercy of RNG or my gear making up who my class is. It's become more and more like the shithole of D3 where you have to rely on random drops in order to use a build and class, rather than your abilities to define your build/class.

6.2 warlocks cannot be demo without full T18 and trinket + optimal secondaries to perform at a reasonable level. Even now at T17 my mythic warlock (and most of those who are deep raiding locks) is defined by my 4 set. Those who dont have the sets - casuals, alts, RP players etc dont even come close to what we can do not bc of iLvL but from the CW spam.

I'm feeling the same right now on my 2nd alt, a warrior who goes on heroic BRF farms. Just 680 and getting stuff no one needs so my crit is low = low enrage time = abysmal DPS and not able to cast anything for 20%of the fight duration. Why should the class be defined and unplayable just because of my gear, because I havent hard stacked enough of the secondary stat crit to be able always useful?

-Demo will need multiple gear set buffs to bring them back into acceptable DPS level.
-Ret Pallies need tons of mastery + set bonus in order to be middle-low dps level otherwise totally trash. FYI HM pallies were only top level before T17 b/c they were able to use the PvP 4 set for a big DPS boost when no one else had set bonuses
-Warrior needs massive crit before they can get a smooth rotation

All of the above is gear related and dependent. Essentially becoming bring the gear, not the class or player

[Zoldor]

All classes are fairly simple to play. Swapping between 3 raiding characters of pally, warlock & warrior my binds larely stay the same. 1-3 generators, 4 big hit & execute ability, 5 AoE ability, Shift 1 stance/seal/meta change, shift 2 big CDs, Shift 3-5 talent stuff, Q interrupt, E racial etc.

Once you get decent at one its not hard to pick up other classes and throw similar abilities into the same binds.

Complexity isnt the issue, its the balancing. Never before have I felt so at the mercy of RNG or my gear making up who my class is. It's become more and more like the shithole of D3 where you have to rely on random drops in order to use a build and class, rather than your abilities to define your build/class.

6.2 warlocks cannot be demo without full T18 and trinket + optimal secondaries to perform at a reasonable level. Even now at T17 my mythic warlock (and most of those who are deep raiding locks) is defined by my 4 set. Those who dont have the sets - casuals, alts, RP players etc dont even come close to what we can do not bc of iLvL but from the CW spam.

I'm feeling the same right now on my 2nd warrior who goes on heroic BRF farms. Just 680 and getting stuff no one needs so my crit is low = low enrage time = abysmal DPS and not able to cast anything for 20%of the fight duration. Why should the class be defined and unplayable just because of my gear, because I havent hard stacked enough of the secondary stat crit to be able always useful?

-Demo will need multiple gear set buffs to bring them back into acceptable DPS level.
-Ret Pallies need tons of mastery + set bonus in order to be middle-low dps level otherwise totally trash. FYI HM pallies were only top level before T17 b/c they were able to use the PvP 4 set for a big DPS boost when no one else had set bonuses
-Warrior needs massive crit before they can get a smooth rotation

All of the above is gear related and dependent. Essentially becoming bring the gear, not the class or player

I can't really remember a time in WoW when gear dependency has meant so much. Yes in overall through put, but I don't think its ever effected my play style as drastically as WoD. Maybe it did and I just don't remember, I knew there were gear break points where I could do certain things, but never as drastic as it is in the current state. Is that because they killed the set pieces from LFR and this model is what they've always wanted? but even in Wrath/BC I can't remember it being so dependent. I knew there were some specs that you stack X on to do Y, but never so much as the class doesn't even play right without a certain set of gear. Then again set bonuses have never really changed your play style like they do now, before they more passively buffed your or gave you proc CD.

[purebalance]

By casuals, i refer to those who raid normal, with the feeling good about getting several kills on heroic and progressing heroic further. with the nerfs to demo, i come across alot of warlocks who to put it bluntly, cant do very well at demonology and grasping its potential. the nerfs are aimed at the experienced warlock players and frankly, butchers the casuals who are not experienced at tracking cooldowns and making the full use of their movement potential.

where is the hunter BM and mage fire+arcane nerfs? those classes are far easier to play than demonology and it is making possibly the coolest spec of the game out of a moderate to high level raiding environment.

Is there any hope that some of the nerfs will get reverted? Mainly the single target one's as our single target was not overpowered anyway!?

LFR is for casuals. Unless you somehow wanna say we don't need it then since clearly you're saying casuals raid normal and heroic. You don't need massive dps in LFR.

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I disagree entirely. What makes Demo so hard? Managing DF?

Demo isn't a hard spec to play, no harder than Destro is. If anything I would consider Destruction a harder spec as the skill ceiling on it to efficiently use it in certain encounters when you take into account things such as min-maxing dps while moving & havoc. Demonbolt Demo is an absolute joke of a spec that requires the same level of thought as the current form of Affliction in my opinion, a spec that had its skill cap crippled due to the removal of snapshotting, and Serv/Serv Demo isn't that much harder than Destro either.

Shadowbolt = Incinerate
Soulfire = Chaos Bolt
Corr/Doom = Immolate

I am in no way saying Destro is a hard spec to play but having to manage fury and Molten Core stacks doesn't make a spec difficult. I see so many people bash Affliction and Destruction for being easier than Demo, why? Nothing about Demo is hard. CR Destro is a lot more forgiving than Destruction was in MoP (or even non-CR destro in WoD) and that does low the skill cap on it a bit but it is amazing to see how many destro warlocks to this day can't properly manage procs and cooldowns as well as utilize havoc to its fullest (or at all).

--

@OP - That's the problem with balancing around gear, what happens when people don't have said gear. Affliction is going to rely so heavily on tier bonuses and the class trinket next patch it is actually disgusting.

Snapshotting was never hard. Half the people who play this game have add ons telling them what to do anyway. One of the major reasons I'm against add ons completely. They ruin the game.

[Deleted]

I'm not a super-hardcore Mythic raider. But I know when my class is underpowered, for Warlocks this happened twice: Highmaul and just after ICC launched. In both cases, it took a lot of bitching, but the class got its buffs. Right now, its fine, and it'll be fine going into HFC.

Early ICC Nibelung affli+crit trinket with haunt snapshotting corr crit% was retarded lol, so im not sure why would you bring up that moment aswell as HM were locks demo/destro were delivering, even aff on 3/4 fights was more than capable of getting into top3. Both moments are far from UP by definition

Difficulty is relative, duh. No class/spec is 'hard' to play. Like, apparently dodging Bombs and Dominator Blast on IM makes it a difficult encounter for some, lol.

It's honestly hilarious that players who only latch on to specs when they are gimmicky or considerably strong in the current meta of the game, make inferences to the class being 'complex' when in reality it's far from it.

Serv/Serv, DB and Syn/Cata are some of the most brain dead iterations of Demonology since it's MoP revamp.

Totally agree, i kinda miss MoP demo

[Octa]

If I could ask for one change to warlock overall it is the removal of Demonic Servitude. It turned Demo into the pad spec. If you are assigned any other duty than ST or AEing small pack adds DS is pretty garbage. You can't really help burn an add nearly as effectively your spells outside of a dump phase hurt next to nothing. You fail your rotation at any point as demo and it makes a rather small difference in overall effectiveness. If you don't fail the opener no one will even notice if you barely play correctly after that point especially in a ST scenario or a add pad scenario. Granted its great to melt adds so quick that others can just sit on the boss and set him on fire and end the fight faster, but how many guilds actually say just let the warlock get the adds, you know everyone wants a piece of that juicy pad damage. I'm glad for the death of Demo and the fact that I won't have to change 2 glyphs 20 times roughly a raid so that I can have fun on trash and then be useful on the boss. Generally removing Demonic Servitude and making the spells matter would have been a better go to for Demo. Then again I loathe DS.

After opening with Demonic Serv turned the spec into a pad spec I'm just left scratching my head at the rest of your post.