4 guilds not quite ready for mythic

[Gorsameth]

instead of merging and disbanding just raid as a raiding alliance
you are on the same server, nobody needs to leave or join anything

contact ppl interested in raiding
send invite at raidstart
enter the instance, raid

this was a common thing in vanilla, somehow ppl forgot it and can only think about MUH GUILD
you can organize and arrange everything outside of a guild

As was said. Ego's and Legacy are the issue.
Plus the issues of combining rosters. 4 tanks. few healers to many.
Merges also have a large history of being a bad thing (often for the reasons I listed before) so people are unwilling to try.

[Palmtree]

Blizzard really should do the flex mythic again, also to keep the raiders interested because overpowering heroic without the numbers to go mythic makes you bored.
If balancing is so important make it fixed 20 man mythic for the world first people when it opens and make it flex after 2 months when world first is long over and no-one cares anymore.

Blizzard can use my idea for free.

[Kuruption]

Really would want to see a Guild that is unwilling to recruit player with lower gear and than complain that they are unable to form a raid. I would laugh so hard.

It happens quite a bit. People complain the recruiting pool is so small, but then you look at the recruitment forums, you see so many people looking for guilds, but they just don't have the gear or experience.

Personally, my guild has had to recruit some people who never stepped foot in normal BRF, but now they're doing pretty damn well in Mythic (and will do even better once we get them in heroic/mythic gear). But some people are unwilling to do that because it's a step back, then get frustrated and quit (why people can't wait a week or two for it to get better I'll never understand). We've also taken people who don't want to leave their guild, which really isn't a dealbreaker for us.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard really should do the flex mythic again

When did they do it the first time?

[kamuimac]

It happens quite a bit. People complain the recruiting pool is so small, but then you look at the recruitment forums, you see so many people looking for guilds, but they just don't have the gear or experience.

that is not surprising at all - the moment you start doin this you either succed if better geared players are able to cover for weak guys and carry then untill they get gear or enter very vicious circle where:
-your progress stops cause you have to gear up new players ->
- your best players leave for better guilds->
- you have to recruit more of low geared people->
- u experience regress where you are unable to kill bosses you had on farm ->
-more of you raiders leave ->
-you decide that you cba with that shit and disband team leaving wiuth your main for better progressed guild ->
-guild dies.

[brunnor]

Not to be the stereotypical asshole here, but if 40+ people can't get a good enough 20man to actually do mythic correctly, maybe it's better off not doing it? You recruit to be able to do content, accept only doing heroic or you die. It seems the first and second aren't working.

My guild died in WotLK because of this. I was GM and couldn't recruit to keep our progression up. We were top 20 US at the time. We had lower skilled players joining the guild because good players quit and we didn't have a choice, but to pick up more people. It failed and we died soon after Ulduar ended. That was my guild from the beginning of vanilla until that point. Sure, it sucked to have your guild die, but you just need to move on sometimes and find a new home.

Guilds dying has always been a thing in this game, it isn't Blizzard's fault they are. It's the leaderships problem, just as it was mine. Suck it up and move on or try to recruit more people. There shouldn't be a game "fix" because your guild isn't doing well.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

-casual with low attendance

This is not conducive to mythic, or any progression raiding in my opinion.
The guild I run raids only two days a week as well, but because of that I demand 100 percent attendance. Obviously if they can't make it for a real life situation its understandable, but if you want to progress you need the same people weekly.
If there are people in the guilds that can't commit to a simple 8~ hours a week of raiding then that would be the first thing I'd address.

Depending on how casual and how low the attendance is, there seems only 2 real options.
If the four guilds are on good terms with each other, that is.

1. Merge. Let those holding each group back know that they are welcome to come to the new guild, but that you are looking to take things a bit more serious. Its likely that most of those people will leave with no hurt feelings, realizing that its simply a difference in interests. This will allow you to build a reliable group, but the big issue with this situation is respect.
Its VERY rare that mass mergers like this work because the leadership from one guild doesn't respect the new leadership or the terms of the agreement. A telltale sign is when the 6 people from <GUILD A> immediately go their separate ways to talk amongst themselves after organized activities. This will pretty much ALWAYS lead to drama.
Pros: immediate entry into Mythic, likely with some success. The initial moral boost of the merger will carry you through the first few, and realistically you will have more than 20 every night.
Cons: Long term terrible idea. Will lose friends who don't want to compete and likely will have a conflict in division of leadership and respect, especially if the new guild is ran under a single "raid leader" concept.

The best approach for this is to ride it as long as you can, then when the drama goes, kick any maligned and use the success you have to recruit more.

2. Combine in purpose, not title. In Classic, there were only two guilds capable of raiding the first months of BWL and neither group ever had enough players to fill a full 40.
In order to remedy this, they simply got together every week and raided, both in separate guilds and all in the same TeamSpeak.
Many got to be even closer with people in the opposite guild, and both guilds maintained they were heavily recruiting to build their own separate 40 man, but it just never happened until AQ.
This is probably the best option for you, but its going to have to approached very casually. You'll need to make sure each group stills feels in control, make sure different leadership styles don't butt heads, and FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST make sure loot is distributed fairly. Might even want to do Personal loot honestly. There can only be one master looter, and that was ultimately what caused those two groups I wrote about to develop a schism. Some loot issue with one tank or another, or something like that.
At least when you are all in the same guild, loot laws are law. But when you aren't you need to be really diplomatic.

[Kuruption]

that is not surprising at all - the moment you start doin this you either succed if better geared players are able to cover for weak guys and carry then untill they get gear or enter very vicious circle where:
-your progress stops cause you have to gear up new players ->
- your best players leave for better guilds->
- you have to recruit more of low geared people->
- u experience regress where you are unable to kill bosses you had on farm ->
-more of you raiders leave ->
-you decide that you cba with that shit and disband team leaving wiuth your main for better progressed guild ->
-guild dies.

Depends what kind of people you have in your raid team. If you have reasonable people that acknowledge that you might take a step back so you can get back into progress again, it won't be bad. It's when you have people who think they can do better and leave (which unfortunately is most of the people), then you're pretty fucked.

[dd614]

So, there is 4 guilds on our server with roughly the same profile :
-former small (10-15) raids
-casual with low attendance (2 days a weel)
-killed BH HM and possibly Darmac/Oregorger MM with the help of pick up.
-25 raid members on paper but baring out players not wanting mythic, having unreliable attendance, being dead weight only 16-18 MM raiders
-bored (and over stuffed) by heroic foundry.

1) If guild 1 is mostly quality players, look for a merger.

2) Stick with normal/heroic. Mythic is not for casual guilds, and they will only get frustrated.

3) Sounds like good players. Maybe recruit 1-2 more and go?

4) Stick with heroic raiding. Dead weight and unreliables will greatly hold you back in mythic.

[Negato]

Guilds are so reluctant to raid together / merge it makes no sense. Like yes I understand egos and logistics can be an issue, but at the end of the day those things can be sorted out for the greater good of raiding, progressing and killing some new bosses.

Three weeks ago my guild (7/10M) offered to merge with another guild (0/10M, 50+ wipes on M Beastlord) laying out everything as equal as possible and even explaining that we didn't need the gear from the first 7 bosses anymore and it would be beneficial to all parties to do a complete merger. They rejected the offer, after an officer vote, because they didnt want to give up "how far they had come". 3 weeks since our offer they are still 0/10M. Makes no sense to me. Stupid pride I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[dd614]

Guilds are so reluctant to raid together / merge it makes no sense. Like yes I understand egos and logistics can be an issue, but at the end of the day those things can be sorted out for the greater good of raiding, progressing and killing some new bosses.

Three weeks ago my guild (7/10M) offered to merge with another guild (0/10M, 50+ wipes on M Beastlord) laying out everything as equal as possible and even explaining that we didn't need the gear from the first 7 bosses anymore and it would be beneficial to all parties to do a complete merger. They rejected the offer, after an officer vote, because they didnt want to give up "how far they had come". 3 weeks since our offer they are still 0/10M. Makes no sense to me. Stupid pride I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Keep in mind they may be getting a ton of whining from the unskilled or undetermined players who are holding them back progression-wise. That's just the excuse they gave you. It sounds like they're a more casual guild who simply has a lot of people who want to raid.

[l33t]

Merging guilds require a gigantic ton of idiotic work. I know what I'm talking about, because my guild went through this at the end of SoO, when Blizzard decided they should shit on smaller raids in favor of... of what exactly, I dunno, of lazy design maybe? Now, I don't like neither the amount of time I have to waste to coordinate raid setup/bench/etc, nor most of the people we merged with. You know, in SoO and before it we had our nice raid of friends. We had no drama starters, no loot whores, no children; awesome people I loved playing with. Now, to make mythic even possible, I have to lick asses of lootwhores, I have to deal with idiots swearing over voice chat, I have to play with people I hate; and what saddens me even more I have to sometimes bench my friends, those who I totally do not want to bench but have to, because healthy rotation of raiders and gearing as equal as possible is required for successful mythic.

Dunno. TBH, me and my friends are considering switching back to heroic in 6.2. Really, we are so tired of having to play with dumbfucks instead of having our nice and awesome raid of friends. If I were you, I would not kill your small guild community's identity just for the sake of running mythic. You'd better run with pugs than merge, really.

Makes no sense to me. Stupid pride I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe. Or maybe they realise that most of them would be instantly benched on any meaningful progression because your raiders are more geared. Maybe for them it is better to wipe for days with a chance to kill a boss eventually, then to be taken on farm bosses only, feeling like a boosted piece of shit, and then sitting in front of a raid instead of actual playing when you start your 8/10 progression.

[Astynax]

Guilds are so reluctant to raid together / merge it makes no sense. Like yes I understand egos and logistics can be an issue, but at the end of the day those things can be sorted out for the greater good of raiding, progressing and killing some new bosses.

Three weeks ago my guild (7/10M) offered to merge with another guild (0/10M, 50+ wipes on M Beastlord) laying out everything as equal as possible and even explaining that we didn't need the gear from the first 7 bosses anymore and it would be beneficial to all parties to do a complete merger. They rejected the offer, after an officer vote, because they didnt want to give up "how far they had come". 3 weeks since our offer they are still 0/10M. Makes no sense to me. Stupid pride I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dont understand this either. Only way to get better is to be challenged and surround yourself with others who are skilled or better. Sounds like theyre just ignorant and intimidated by the fact that everyone in your raid group is likely better than theirs and face the fact that a majority of their baddies need to step it up. Sounds like they dont even have the right attitude to do much in mythic, I wouldnt take the merger even if they wanted to now!

[Deleted]

Mergers can be a brilliant thing. It requires some effort being put in though. Around 10 weeks or so back on my current server there were a handful of guilds who were 9/10 heroic to 1/10 mythic in their progress. All were stagnant, ourselves included who had just eked our way to 2/10 mythic.

I spent a good 2 or 3 weeks looking through the other guilds logs, seeing what they had, what we had - where their strengths seemed to lie and where ours did. Out of the 4 possible guilds I was looking at I found one that seemed to be the best suited. The opening remark being that I saw they too were struggling for numbers, and would they be interested in trying to see what we could do collectively to get both guilds moving forward.

There was no "Hey do you guys want to join us, everything will be great!" from either side, a large part is that everyone tends to line up their end-game scenario without realising that other people have a role to play.

Anyway, I went into a raid of theirs one night on their TS. Helped them down a boss, reciprocated the offer to bring a couple of their members in to our raid of BRF mythic afterwards as they hadn't started yet. Both guilds were in discussion about what may happen, but nothing firm on the table and we had a longer chat about trying a collaborative raid drawing up a raid team from the two guilds and we went in and got some repeat kills which we had been struggling to do.

Once both sets of members were more familiar with everyone, once everyone saw the potential they were more receptive to the idea. We were then able to discuss more specifics, our guild had all 8 tabs, we'd got a paid up website/teamspeak server and so on as the guild had been around for years so there was a good set-up outside of the game. We opened the floor for anyone who wanted to re-roll such as where there were excess healers. A couple of people didn't feel like going through with it, which was respected.

In the 5 weeks since we've gone from 2/10 Mythic to 7/10 Mythic and Maidens may well go down this week to put us on 8/10.

There's so much potential there in mergers, I mean this is for a guild on a relatively backwater server with myself as raid leader and I'd never raid led before the first week of blackrock foundry (and believe me, I'm genuinely pretty bad at this raid leading gig I'm still getting a heads up on add-ons which let me monitor the group fully outside of raid frames). The guild was a couple of weeks away from disbanding from how it looked and is now in a really strong position for 6.2 relatively speaking on our server.

[Negato]

Maybe. Or maybe they realise that most of them would be instantly benched on any meaningful progression because your raiders are more geared. Maybe for them it is better to wipe for days with a chance to kill a boss eventually, then to be taken on farm bosses only, feeling like a boosted piece of shit, and then sitting in front of a raid instead of actual playing when you start your 8/10 progression.

I could see that except they STILL haven't even made a dent into Mythic, despite having some genuinely good players. After 3 weeks of wiping on the first boss of Mythic BRF when does it become enough to consider foregoing what you are doing (what isn't working) and take a risk (merging). Also you are making it seem like they would be sat on 8/10 progression, when in reality we carefully crafted a roster that was a 12/8 split with some people rotating to make it even more fair during progression.

So I ask, would you rather wipe continuously on the first boss of Mythic, or actually get to experience 7/10, get some gear, and then yes have to sit on a per need basis. I'm not saying a merger is easy or that there aren't logistics to overcome, but given those 2 options, which would you pick?

So that brings me to my point. Currently players (mostly leadership) would rather sacrifice actually getting to experience new content in favor of keeping what they think is best.

TL;DR: no one wants to take a risk, despite note being able to raid Mythic anyway.

[Astynax]

What's tough from my perspective is keeping a bench. Players don't want to be in a guild where they only play 60% of the time, and if you have a 25 man team that's probably what you're talking about for the bottom 10. In my opinion that's where cross realm would help - if you could keep a 20 man roster but then reliably be able to pick up a couple people when your main raiders have commitments, it would be much easier to manage. My group right now has 22-23, so if 4 people can't make it, we are shut down for the week, which sucks.

You don't run with a core 20 then bench 5, hoping to step up to earn that core spot to kick someone out. You run with a core 25. When people are labelled as the bench or the ones who get to go when someone cant make it is when people leave and guild falls apart. Make it known that ideal class comps are better for first kills them bring in the others for the farm or when theyre optimal for the comp

[kamuimac]

Guilds are so reluctant to raid together / merge it makes no sense. Like yes I understand egos and logistics can be an issue, but at the end of the day those things can be sorted out for the greater good of raiding, progressing and killing some new bosses.

Three weeks ago my guild (7/10M) offered to merge with another guild (0/10M, 50+ wipes on M Beastlord) laying out everything as equal as possible and even explaining that we didn't need the gear from the first 7 bosses anymore and it would be beneficial to all parties to do a complete merger. They rejected the offer, after an officer vote, because they didnt want to give up "how far they had come". 3 weeks since our offer they are still 0/10M. Makes no sense to me. Stupid pride I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

they probably relalised much better then you think what your plan was - which was to basickly cannibalize them take over their best players and forever-bench weaker ones - they showed up very high loyality towards their guild which is a good thing in a longer run - we dont have to long till HfC so they prefer to be in maintain-slow mode cause they knwo they wont clear much anymore so why bother when they will have a lot to do when HfC lands.

despite having some genuinely good players.

dont pretend liek you were interested in making happy their full roster instead only those "genuinely good players." while you would perma-bench everybody else including worst performers from your own guild.

[Anguirel]

You talk to people in all 4 guilds (and outside of those guilds), find those most interested in doing Mythic and sticking to a schedule, find a good common raid day (or days), and make some non-guild raiding groups with fair and agreed upon loot distribution guidelines. Set up a separate raid forum and away you go. Does it really matter that you have different guild tags floating over your avatars when the boss dies? Keep each individual guild around for Heroic runs on different days and for whatever else they do together that people enjoy in their guild (also for recruiting pools), and the Mythic raid only does Mythic stuff.

[l33t]

So I ask, would you rather wipe continuously on the first boss of Mythic, or actually get to experience 7/10, get some gear, and then yes have to sit on a per need basis. I'm not saying a merger is easy or that there aren't logistics to overcome, but given those 2 options, which would you pick?

So that brings me to my point. Currently players (mostly leadership) would rather sacrifice actually getting to experience new content in favor of keeping what they think is best.

TL;DR: no one wants to take a risk, despite note being able to raid Mythic anyway.

I know, I know. As I said, our guild merged with other guilds to run Mythic during WoD's prepatch, so I perfectly know how this happens.

You see, problem is they are a formed community of players. They obviously love playing together, and maybe for them being able to preserve their community and possibility to play together whenever they want is more important that mythic gear and boosted experience.

In my opinion, bench is the culprit here. If you could raid with all raiders who've shown up on a raid night, without having to bench someone, WAY more mythic guilds would be up and running.

[Gorsameth]

I know, I know. As I said, our guild merged with other guilds to run Mythic during WoD's prepatch, so I perfectly know how this happens.

You see, problem is they are a formed community of players. They obviously love playing together, and maybe for them being able to preserve their community and possibility to play together whenever they want is more important that mythic gear and boosted experience.

In my opinion, bench is the culprit here. If you could raid with all raiders who've shown up on a raid night, without having to bench someone, WAY more mythic guilds would be up and running.

Blizzard acknowledged they could not balance 2 different sizes of mythic and they an unbalanced Mythic was not their goal.
Trying to convince them to balance 20 sizes is not going to find a lot of traction.

[Sierra85]

Trying to convince them to balance 20 sizes is not going to find a lot of traction.

Just make it scale, but it scales with the amount of healers you have.

2/3/5
2/4/9
2/5/10
2/6/12

so the scaling is based on both, the amount of heals in grp. this means how many dps u can bring. etc