Poland warns David Cameron not to fool voters over EU referendum

[Deleted]

I love how UK nationalists point Polish immigrants as the single greatest reason of their economical problems (Polish and other "Eastern European") yet they fail to see their own fault in that. "The EU made those pesky Easterners to come here and take our jobs and our healthcare" yet out of all the Polish people in UK I personally know (which is ~30) there is not a single one that takes the unemployment benefits. When it comes to healthcare, sure they use it but for emergencies (car accident/pregnancy) for almost all other medical procedures and treatments they come back to Poland as they can be done cheaper/better/faster here (and actually so do many Britts, especially for dentists). What makes me unbelievably annoyed is that no one mentions other big "minorities" such as immigrants from Middle East who have families of 5+ children and take benefits for anything they can. (That is because other minorities are not white so it would be racist of anyone to say something like that but them Poles, white as snow so feel free to blame everything on them)

Btw, yes I am Polish, I have family in UK and I am biased (and a bit butthurt apparently)

The immigration and wellfare leeching problem is a fact, yet they have found an easy scapegoat to blame : Eastern Europeans (funny because most of them work and they actually add to UK's economy). They won't point at the actual troublemakes - blacks from africa or muslims from middle east, because they would be branded as racists and facists by all the leftist idiots.

[Pucek]

The immigration and wellfare leeching problem is a fact, yet they have found an easy scapegoat to blame : Eastern Europeans (funny because most of them work and they actually add to UK's economy). They won't point at the actual troublemakes - blacks from africa or muslims from middle east, because they would be branded as racists and facists by all the leftist idiots.

Totally agree, sure there are always some bad apples that will take the benefits, still the huge majority simply works there, pays taxes and adds to their economy (and integrates pretty well). Eastern Europeans are just the easiest scapegoat since they can't use the racism card.

[Deleted]

He's totally correct, the UK really needs to get over it's little islander mindset

Problem is Cameron and the majority of the UK Government are drawn from
the upper classes of the UK and still think we have an Empire and all the swing that
goes with it.

It's not like the EU doesn't have it's issues some countries seem to have been let in
without meeting the requirements, especially moneywise, just so they don't fall under the
influence of Putin/Islam/some other fucker who will exploit them first, but that's the fault
of the EU government and not people from less well off places that just want a better life

The Uk should also make an exception to Poland as a apology for more or less throwing them
under the bus at the end of WW2

[Deleted]

I love how UK nationalists point Polish immigrants as the single greatest reason of their economical problems (Polish and other "Eastern European") yet they fail to see their own fault in that. "The EU made those pesky Easterners to come here and take our jobs and our healthcare" yet out of all the Polish people in UK I personally know (which is ~30) there is not a single one that takes the unemployment benefits. When it comes to healthcare, sure they use it but for emergencies (car accident/pregnancy) for almost all other medical procedures and treatments they come back to Poland as they can be done cheaper/better/faster here (and actually so do many Britts, especially for dentists). What makes me unbelievably annoyed is that no one mentions other big "minorities" such as immigrants from Middle East who have families of 5+ children and take benefits for anything they can. (That is because other minorities are not white so it would be racist of anyone to say something like that but them Poles, white as snow so feel free to blame everything on them)

Btw, yes I am Polish, I have family in UK and I am biased (and a bit butthurt apparently)

I share your sentiments about the Poles. It is just farcical to castigate them as scroungers, they work a lot harder than us Brits.

However, I think your criticism of other minorities is off-base. The biggest class of parasitic welfare-scrounging scum by far in the UK is the banking sector. No one else even comes close.

[Strear]

I spent all my youth at school with a VERY big polish community (I lived in the north of France, where many miners came from Poland and their kids were with me at school). I'm so surprised, now living in the south that there're so few where I live now. Hard workers, kind, integrated, polish, leave the island and come to France !

[Deleted]

European complaints against the EU and Brussels are their version of American complaints about the federal government, "Washington" and a distant and byzantine government. Complaining about policies forced on you by Germany is no different than people in a rich liberal state like New York complaining that southern, poorer states have too much say with federal money that dis-proportionally pulls from New York compared to say, Arkansas.

No amount of treaty finagling will ever change that. Ever. You either sign up to join a nation state-like structure that covers continents and has hundreds of millions of citizens, or you stay small and less relevant. If you stay, citizens will resent what "Brussels" does until the end of time. That's normal and fine. The good, especially the less visible every day benefits, far offset the bad.

California without the United States has a GDP of 1.95 trillion. Larger than Brazil, Italy and Canada. It would be the world's 8th largest economy, just behind India.

But California without the United States is only a fraction of it's current power and influence.

The cost to the UK leaving the EU is the end of the UK as a global player. It's too small (and so is Germany for that matter).

Mm, i cant believe they are even placating the UK atm.
While the Loss of the UK would be bad for the EU, it would be crippling for the UK.
Their relative importance would plummet, their economy would be fucked over, and this is the big one, in about five seconds flat, the 'city' would be the equivalent of Cameroons banking sector. They are already playing at a disadvantage with no Euro, but outside the EU? with no protection, or consideration from the EU, ? - wasteland.

[Deleted]

Mm, i cant believe they are even placating the UK atm.
While the Loss of the UK would be bad for the EU, it would be crippling for the UK.
Their relative importance would plummet, their economy would be fucked over, and this is the big one, in about five seconds flat, the 'city' would be the equivalent of Cameroons banking sector. They are already playing at a disadvantage with no Euro, but outside the EU? with no protection, or consideration from the EU, ? - wasteland.

Why wouldn't the EU want the UK to stay?

We have the biggest financial hub outside of NYC, we have the biggest tech hub outside of Silicon Valley, we pay the 2nd highest amount to the EU budget, we have the 2nd largest European economy, we have the 2nd largest extra-EU trade % of world trade.

Yes a split between the EU and the UK would be damaging to both organisations, that's why both sides want to come to a compromise.

[Deleted]

Why wouldn't the EU want the UK to stay?

Oh, they want them to, but the UK is effectively pointing a gun at their own heads and saying do what i want or else i shoot.

We have the biggest financial hub outside of NYC,

Yes, about 90% of which is 'exported' to the EU.
Take a guess as to how long that would continue to be the case?

we have the biggest tech hub outside of Silicon Valley, we pay the 2nd highest amount to the EU budget, we have the 2nd largest European economy, we have the 2nd largest extra-EU trade % of world trade.

You are aware that leaving the EU would mean that you would have to sign up to the EU zone, at which point you are bound by regulations (the same regulations you wanted to leave) but no longer having any influence over them, would no longer receive any EU research money and you would have to renegotiate trade relations with the rest of the world.

Yes a split between the EU and the UK would be damaging to both organisations, that's why both sides want to come to a compromise.

yes, the EU loses its beard, the UK loses its arm.

[Strear]

we pay the 2nd highest amount to the EU budget

HAHAHA ... no. In theory you're third not second, but the reality is totally different. See the " UK correction " column, where UK is paid back, and all the other have to pay the difference ...



You're a pain in the EU ass. Leave. I wish it's us, other EU members, who would be asked to vote.

[Deleted]

HAHAHA ... no. In theory you're third not second, but the reality is totally different. See the " UK correction " column, where UK is paid back, and all the other have to pay the difference ...



You're a pain in the EU ass. Leave. I wish it's us, other EU members, who would be asked to vote.

You do realise the UK rebate is purely for the fact we have one of the smallest farming communities in the EU right? It's effectively just there to match what other countries receive in farming subsidies (which we don't), it is disingenuous to put just one particular subsidy out of the many that get paid differing amounts to different countries.

The best way to evaluate is a total NET loss / gain of EU budget (ie total contribution - total subsidy = net budget contribution). Germany + the UK have the least favorable net contribution by a long shot, in fact our net contribution to the EU budget is TWICE what France's is even though we have very similar sized economies.

[Strear]

You do realise the UK rebate is purely for the fact we have one of the smallest farming communities in the EU right? It's effectively just there to match what other countries receive in farming subsidies (which we don't), it is disingenuous to put just one particular subsidy out of the many that get paid differing amounts to different countries.

You took that rebate 34 years ago ! Yes, agriculture represented 70 % of the budget THEN. I won't give numbers that I don't know but I'm pretty sure today it's less than half of the budget. But the rebate is still there, and who pays the biggest part of the rebate ? France and Italy.

But from what I read by those who want to leave " it still is too much ". I see Europe as a team. It all makes me think about what I hear from some friends about our NHS " It costs me too much, am never sick " : that's not the meaning and the way it works. I agree we french get too much, mostly fro agriculture. Much more money should go to the eastern states to help them develop and raise. That's what Europe is for me.

[Deleted]

You took that rebate 34 years ago ! Yes, agriculture represented 70 % of the budget THEN. I won't give numbers that I don't know but I'm pretty sure today it's less than half of the budget. But the rebate is still there, and who pays the biggest part of the rebate ? France and Italy.

But from what I read by those who want to leave " it still is too much ". I see Europe as a team. It all makes me think about what I hear from some friends about our NHS " It costs me too much, am never sick ". I agree we french get too much, mostly fro agriculture. Much more money should go to the eastern states to help them develop and raise. That's what Europe is for me.

So you suggest we remove the UK rebate?

In which case the UK would be the largest net contribute to the EU budget by almost 2 billion (would have a 2 billion net contribution higher than Germany and a contribution which is 8 times larger than France even though all 3 countries have pretty much the same economic size).

Although the original reason for the rebate is not as important today as when first implemented, it's still a necessary subsidy to keep our total net contribution to similar levels as the other stronger EU countries.

[Deleted]

So you suggest we remove the UK rebate?

In which case the UK would be the largest net contribute to the EU budget by almost 2 billion (would have a 2 billion net contribution higher than Germany and a contribution which is 8 times larger than France even though all 3 countries have pretty much the same economic size).

Although the original reason for the rebate is not as important today as when first implemented, it's still a necessary subsidy to keep our total net contribution to similar levels as the other stronger EU countries.

You do get that every country (baring Spain, Portugal and Ireland) in that was a part of the western Europe is paying ? - your problem is that you don't want to pay for the privilege of being in the EU.
Complain that Spain Portugal and Ireland are moochers, but the rest is fair.
Also, plenty of countries get less AG money than the UK, and they don't have a fucking rebate.
Ed, also, Links to shit is a nice rule to follow, both of you.

[Deleted]

You do get that every country (baring Spain, Portugal and Ireland) in that was a part of the western Europe is paying ? - your problem is that you don't want to pay for the privilege of being in the EU.
Complain that Spain Portugal and Ireland are moochers, but the rest is fair.
Also, plenty of countries get less AG money than the UK, and they don't have a fucking rebate.
Ed, also, Links to shit is a nice rule to follow, both of you.

Plenty of other countries don't pay in anywhere near as much as the UK or are net receivers.

[Strear]

In which case the UK would be the largest net contribute to the EU budget by almost 2 billion (would have a 2 billion net contribution higher than Germany and a contribution which is 8 times larger than France even though all 3 countries have pretty much the same economic size).

Someone has to be first " payer " no ? Sure, what I get is that UK doesn't want to be that one. It's a mathematic rule that defines who pays what no ? It is said that the cost for UK is compensated by the access to the EU market with the EU rules. Sadly, I don't have any estimating data on the subject, so it's not a real argument. I'll check if some calculated the cost in terms of taxes and all that stuff that would happen if UK leaves Europe in terms of import/export to know if it's meaningful or not.

Ed, also, Links to shit is a nice rule to follow, both of you.

" Sir, yes sir "

My link :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_...European_Union

His link :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start

For information, the part of agriculture in the european budget until 2008 :

[Kalis]

HAHAHA ... no. In theory you're third not second, but the reality is totally different. See the " UK correction " column, where UK is paid back, and all the other have to pay the difference ...

Top EU Net contributors for 2013 (including rebate and subsidies) -

1st: Germany €13.8bn
2nd: UK €8.6bn
3rd: France €8.4bn
4th: Italy €3.8bn

Source: http://english.eu.dk/en/faq/faq/net_contribution which is a Danish Government website.

You're a pain in the EU ass. Leave. I wish it's us, other EU members, who would be asked to vote.

The UK's contribution is higher than what Spain and Greece combined receive, and that's just the EU budget

Access to the London financial markets is of huge benefit to the rest of the EU, just as access to the EU markets is of huge benefit to the UK, in fact it would be better for the EU if France or Italy left (or in fact any other country bar Germany), than it would be for the UK to leave.

[Puupi]

Access to the London financial markets is of huge benefit to the rest of the EU, just as access to the EU markets is of huge benefit to the UK, in fact it would be better for the EU if France or Italy left (or in fact any other country bar Germany), than it would be for the UK to leave.

How does UK being an EU country give others "access" to London market financial markets? Or "deny" it if it isn't?

If this were the case, the financial market sector would move to Frankfurt after UK leaves EU.

[Kalis]

How does UK being an EU country give others "access" to London market financial markets? Or "deny" it if it isn't?

If this were the case, the financial market sector would move to Frankfurt after UK leaves EU.

If the UK left, then Frankfurt would start a push to become the EU's financial hub, that doesn't necessarily mean it will succeed in doing so. And, even if it did succeed, it wouldn't mean they were automatically as much of a benefit to the EU as the London markets currently are.

London has historical ties to a number of financial markets, mainly through the Commonwealth/Empire, and those won't all be lost by leaving the EU, i.e. the London market won't disappear, it will shrink. And not all business that leaves London will go to Frankfurt, it may go to New York, or somewhere else.

The UK leaving is a lose-lose situation for both the EU and UK.

[Acidbaron]

Why wouldn't the EU want the UK to stay?

We have the biggest financial hub outside of NYC, we have the biggest tech hub outside of Silicon Valley, we pay the 2nd highest amount to the EU budget, we have the 2nd largest European economy, we have the 2nd largest extra-EU trade % of world trade.

Yes a split between the EU and the UK would be damaging to both organisations, that's why both sides want to come to a compromise.

Others already responded to the rest so let me even add to the bolded part.

All the big foreign banks have already flat out stated that with a separation from the EU they would simply leave. This is something they already stated when merely the idea of a public poll about leaving the EU started to go. You lose your trade benefits why would they not relocate they are there because of the EU not because of it being in the UK.

[Strear]

Top EU Net contributors for 2013 (including rebate and subsidies) -

1st: Germany €13.8bn
2nd: UK €8.6bn
3rd: France €8.4bn
4th: Italy €3.8bn

Source: http://english.eu.dk/en/faq/faq/net_contribution which is a Danish Government website.



The UK's contribution is higher than what Spain and Greece combined receive, and that's just the EU budget

Access to the London financial markets is of huge benefit to the rest of the EU, just as access to the EU markets is of huge benefit to the UK, in fact it would be better for the EU if France or Italy left (or in fact any other country bar Germany), than it would be for the UK to leave.

It seems that british (I should say english because of what I hear from my scottish friends, but this is not the debate) absolutly focus on the " net contribution ", and old things like " we don't have fields, CAP costs too much, kill it ". In fact, you're paying for others and don't get enough benefit, that's it ? Very, very anglo-saxon-capitalistic thing. I have an idea of Europe about helping other poorer countries to develop and raise even if they don't give us an immediate return. It's not fucking day trading or something like an investment and you want your money back the next year, with interests. The other nations life level will improve, and when THEY CAN (not when we decide), they'll naturally buy goods, visit our countries, and it'll be a virtuous circle. That's the way I hope for Europe, and I feel European, and have so much hope for Europe. And even if we never get paid back, or have no return on our " investment ", I'll be glad we did it, just for " the idea ". Europe should be more than just an economic union in many minds.

UK cried to join Europe even if french refused 2 times their entry, UK economy raised, and now some (maybe the majority) want to leave ? Eh, just leave, UK will always be that family member you really love, but can not work with.

Do you just feel european ?