"Hero picks don't matter": The only way that HotS isn't pay-for-advtanage

[paralleluniverse]

If hero picks don't matter, then despite the fact that heroes can be locked if you haven't paid enough real money, the game is still fair.

But if hero picks don't matter, then why are both teams discussing and thinking so hard, even spending most of their bonus time, about hero picks?

If hero picks don't matter, then why don't the teams just instantly pick the hero they're most familiar with?

If hero picks don't matter, then any team with one support, one warrior and at least one assassain are equal, no matter what you pick.

If hero picks don't matter, why are all heroes unlocked in this tournament?

If hero picks don't matter, why is there a draft mode instead of just using blind picks?

If hero picks don't matter, why does Game Director Dustin Browder say they do:

PCG: Ideally, would it be your intention to have every hero and every level be competitively viable?

DB: No, no, no. For example, right now Gazlowe the goblin tinkerer is not considered a top tier character on any map except Sky Temple, where we’re starting to see Gazlowe do some pretty cool stuff because he’s very much a board control piece. Gazlowe can’t fight for much but he can own an area of ground. Well guess what Sky Temple is all about? It’s all about owning ground. So suddenly here’s a hero, probably a tier two maybe tier three hero, who is suddenly first pick on Sky Temple, and that’s what we’re going for. We want variability in these heroes. We don’t want twelve heroes to be top. It may happen, but that’s not the goal. We want the variation in battlegrounds to cause changes in your composition. We want variation in enemy team compositions to change your composition, and with the introduction of ranked play, we’re finally getting to see how successful our strategy has been here in creating that kind of variability. We could have guessed that before, but we never would have seen it, and now we can start working towards more and more of that kind of variability.

Source: http://www.pcgamer.com/blizzard-on-h...ng-yet/#page-2

The last hero G2 picked after a very long draft was Falstad, it was the hero G2 decided was the best for their chances of winning in this particular situation. What if they couldn't pick Falstad because it was locked?

If hero picks do matter, then how is it possible that the game is fair when you (or your opponent) can't pick the heroes that you (or your opponent) decides will be best for your (or their) chance of winning? It's not. Unless the hero pool is equalized, like it is in this tournament, ranked mode is pay-for-advantage.

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ToD 5 minutes ago on Dreamhack stream: "If you lose the draft, the game becomes very hard."

Commentators say that Fnatic said that they lost a draft in a previous game.

Clearly, hero picks don't matter and these pro gamers are just talking out of their ass.

Btw, this proof is now streaming live: http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhackheroes

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Well no.. you can earn heroes with gold... soo..

[paralleluniverse]

Well no.. you can earn heroes with gold... soo..

No, what matters is what people do in reality, not what they could do. Also, even if you have all heroes unlocked, when your opponent doesn't, then you are at an unfair advantage over your opponent. You could buy all the heroes, but you STILL can't make the game fair because you can't make your opponent buy all the heroes.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No, what matters is what people do in reality, not what they could do. Also, even if you have all heroes unlocked, when your opponent doesn't, then you are at an unfair advantage over your opponent. You could buy all the heroes, but you STILL can't the game fair because you can't make your opponent buy all the heroes.

Well no... but I guess you can just stop playing since you're so whiny...

Most players aren't playing in tournaments, so having a full roster doesn't matter.

Good try though.

[Deleted]

If hero picks do matter, then how is it possible that the game is fair when you (or your opponent) can't pick the heroes that you (or your opponent) decides will be best for your (or their) chance of winning? It's not. Unless the hero pool is equalized, like it is in this tournament, ranked mode is pay-for-advantage.

getting matched with a bunch of retarded morons in solo queue is not the same as a tournament. you can win with practically anything with good enough team play, it has worked like that for almost every moba. I've played plenty of games around 3k mmr without a support and did fine.

Pro players understand how the game works and are playing with people of equal skill with top notch communication, of course picks matter for them. If you play against a top tier protect the Illidan comp without a counter (read: Muradin) you will lose. Try pulling protect the Illidan off in soloq, where your supports are off randomly pushing another lane and get caught out 1v5.

I think you get the point. also you can buy heroes for gold, so it's not "lel p2w!!1".

[Nerraw]

Well no.. you can earn heroes with gold... soo..

^

Play your bloody quick matches, learn the game, earn the gold. I didn't venture into HL until I had already 600+ games, and even then I didn't play it for a long time after until again recently. I've been swimming in gold. I even got the 20k piggy mount the other day.

[paralleluniverse]

Well no... but I guess you can just stop playing since you're so whiny...

Most players aren't playing in tournaments, so having a full roster doesn't matter.

Good try though.

I'm not playing the game.

If you'd actually read the OP, you'd see that tournaments are fair because all heroes are unlocked, the fact that most people aren't playing in tournaments or a tournament-like fair environment is part of the problem.

You dodged all the questions. Good try though... actually no, you didn't even try.

[Nerraw]

I'm not playing the game.

If you'd actually read the OP, you'd see that tournaments are fair because all heroes are unlocked, the fact that most people aren't playing in tournaments or a tournament-like fair environment is part of the problem.

You dodged all the questions. Good try though... actually no, you didn't even try.

You don't think the people actually playing these high-level tournaments have played enough to unlock every single hero in the game already anyway?

[paralleluniverse]

getting matched with a bunch of retarded morons in solo queue is not the same as a tournament. you can win with practically anything with good enough team play, it has worked like that for almost every moba. I've played plenty of games around 3k mmr without a support and did fine.

Pro players understand how the game works and are playing with people of equal skill with top notch communication, of course picks matter for them. If you play against a top tier protect the Illidan comp without a counter (read: Muradin) you will lose. Try pulling protect the Illidan off in soloq, where your supports are off randomly pushing another lane and get caught out 1v5.

I think you get the point. also you can buy heroes for gold, so it's not "lel p2w!!1".

I never said picks determine who wins. A small advantage is still an advantage. If hero picks don't matter, then why are both teams discussing and thinking so hard, even spending most of their bonus time, about hero picks? If hero picks don't matter, then why don't the teams just instantly pick the hero they're most familiar with?

[randomnamegenerator16]

OP clearly doesn't know what p2w is and he obviously never played other mobas.

[paralleluniverse]

OP clearly doesn't know what p2w is and he obviously never played other mobas.

I said pay for advantage, not pay to win (no game is literally pay to win). I've played Dota 2 and HotS.

[Deleted]

If you want to get away cheap, just main support.
Most supports are cheap, just one available for 10k. The launch of new supports is going extremely slow, you will have enough gold to buy one once they arrive just through daily quests. It's one of the most needed roles, and the cheapest one. It solves the problem if you want to play "pro" but don't want to spend money.

[ophion1990]

Ofcourse hero picks matter.... at very high level of play. The level where maybe 1% of the entire player base is at. If you lose hero league at rank 30 it's because of you/your teammates "underperform", not because of the hero you picked.

That aside, if this makes HotS pay for advantage, LoL is pay for advantage aswell...

[LilSaihah]

So when did this idea for pay-for-advantage come about?

Having heroes cost real dollarydoos or ingame currency is an industry standard. It's not special.

[paralleluniverse]

Don't you know? Hero picks don't matter. So why haven't the commenters and the commentators got a clue?


The result:


Not outdrafted. Kick Back's draft is as good as any other.

This is not a laughable draft, it's an equal draft.

[Gsara]

I havent spent a dime on any moba and Ive never had an issue getting to a high rank/MMR in dota2, lol, or hots. In LoL I hit D1 playing mostly 3 champs, in hots I hit rank 1 with a 4k ish mmr with mostly 3-4 champs. You dont need to have every champ unlocked in any game to do well.

[paralleluniverse]

Ofcourse hero picks matter.... at very high level of play. The level where maybe 1% of the entire player base is at. If you lose hero league at rank 30 it's because of you/your teammates "underperform", not because of the hero you picked.

That aside, if this makes HotS pay for advantage, LoL is pay for advantage aswell...

How do you know that hero drafts only matter for top? Is that only why pros take so long to pick, while 99% instantly pick whatever hero they're most familiar with because all drafts are equal for them?

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I havent spent a dime on any moba and Ive never had an issue getting to a high rank/MMR in dota2, lol, or hots. In LoL I hit D1 playing mostly 3 champs, in hots I hit rank 1 with a 4k ish mmr with mostly 3-4 champs. You dont need to have every champ unlocked in any game to do well.

I didn't say you can't do well if you don't buy heroes. You need to consider the counterfactual.

[ChildeRoland]

You don't think the people actually playing these high-level tournaments have played enough to unlock every single hero in the game already anyway?

Heard a few DotA players were paid by blizz to join a tournament the other day, and no, they did not get all heroes and had not played enough to unlock every one.

However, if you have 6k+ hours in DotA 2, I don't think unlocking all heroes at once would be "overwhelming", as seems to be the argument most used against a totally free hero pool. The league-style of unlocking heroes isn't benefitting players, it's just a cash grab.

[Nerraw]

Heard a few DotA players were paid by blizz to join a tournament the other day, and no, they did not get all heroes and had not played enough to unlock every one.

Wasn't that just the for-fun tournament though? Get a bunch of random people together and see how they do with this game.

However, if you have 6k+ hours in DotA 2, I don't think unlocking all heroes at once would be "overwhelming", as seems to be the argument most used against a totally free hero pool. The league-style of unlocking heroes isn't benefitting players, it's just a cash grab.

Won't argue it's for cash. However, this is a F2P game. This is to be expected.

Still, this game is aimed at newer players in the genre. Not having everything unlocked means people get introduced things a bit at a time. And looking at quick matches since Open Beta happened, it's bloody well needed. Here's hoping we'll never see an Abathur free week.

[Waaldo]

How do you know that hero drafts only matter for top? Is that only why pros take so long to pick, while 99% instantly pick whatever hero they're most familiar with because all drafts are equal for them?

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I didn't say you can't do well if you don't buy heroes. You need to consider the counterfactual.

In quick match you have no clue who your enemy is playing as, so you pick who you want to play and roll with whatever team you get. But in Hero League picking characters does take time. You can see some of the enemy picks and that will sway who you pick. That's why you need 10 heroes to play in Hero League.

I'm guessing you have never played Hero League.

It's not pay for advantage because no hero is overpowered, however, that's not to say that heroes don't have other hero counters. You clearly don't seem to understand how online PvP games work. Go play Magicka Wizard Wars. It's a good game where every hero is exactly the same.