[Disc] T18 4pc and Evangalism/Archangel management.

[Skaiya]

It's easy to tell that the Disc 4pc compliments defensive use of Penance, but with the lack of T17 2pc (and the convenience most of us have come dependent on), how are you managing your Evangelism stacks? I've switched back to Solace, and that's easy to use on cooldown - but that still only provides 3 stacks within the Archangel 30 second cooldown. And with the new 4pc (assuming it only procs off defensive penance), offensive penances seem wasted (ignoring the damage boost on 2pc to compliment atonement.)

So, my question is, whats your way of dealing with it? Are you 2x smiting? Only using 3-stack Archangel? Delaying Archangel uptime? Using offensive penance? I typically try to avoid offensive penance like the plague, because in HFC especially it always seems like there's an opportunity to use it defensively, and with the new 4pc it just seems like it'll be wasted potential, and that it may be worth considering only going for 2-pc.

[Pearl1717]

Solace is definitely the way to go. I used solace all throughout BRF cause I found it to be a better hps increase anyway.

As far as managing evangelism, the way I see it we have three options, which are all situational:

1) Use AA with 3 stacks

2) Smite 1-2 times to get 4-5 stacks

3) Smite x1 + penance x1 to get 4-5 stacks

I don't think it will be worth it to delay AA since it never was in HM with only using it with 3 stacks on average. But I think all three of those options will be entirely situational. No damage going out, and no one needs healing, option 3. No damage going out, but you will need penance within 8 secs, use option 2. Didn't manage AA well going into a heavy damage phase, go with option 1.

With t18 4pc, we won't be able to maintain 5 stacks for every AA like we do now, but at the minimum we will be maintaining 3 stacks like in HM.

[Shinra1]

Oh woe is me woe is me I have to hard cast twice something that will buff my healing every 30 seconds what will I do?!

[Skaiya]

Oh woe is me woe is me I have to hard cast twice something that will buff my healing every 30 seconds what will I do?!

Not really a woe, just trying to find out what's most efficient, and what other people are doing. But I appreciate the constructive sarcasm.

[Overdispersion]

Pretty much agree with Pearl. Not worth smiting during aoe raid damage (or solace for that matter) to AA with 5 stack. Some basic calcs based on healcalc sheets and personal stat ratings:
No AA (easier to prove my point although, 3 stacking with solace is more beneficial from mp5 POV)
30/1,25 = 24
24*94762 = 2274288 <=> 75809.6 hps

5 stack AA with solace and smites
3x solace = 19430*3 = 58290
2x smite = 8723*2 = 17446
18 sec of pws*1.25 (-1 solaces) = 13.4*1.25*94762 = 1587263.5
5.6*94762 = 530667.2
Sum:
2193666.7 <=> 73122 hps

[Deleted]

Just as a sidenote, I don't know if this changed since PTR but 4p did procc off offensive penance as well. I only have 3set so I can't really test it right now.

[Skaiya]

If it actually does proc off offensive penance that gets rid of a lot of my concerns, and definitely makes the 4-pc worth it. In my current gear, not calculating procs, buffs or crits/multi's, that would make offensive penance attonment ticks heal for roughly 11-12k (30k per penance) with a potential of it healing upwards to 70k if the 4pc procs. (Assuming everyone is able to be healed for the full amount.) As well as some ridiculous 50k defensive penance ticks. That's some very rough 2 AM slap-a-dummy math, though.

[Spotnick]

It does, I tested it on the ptr on the last week and while I was attacking the dummy with it it was healing the healer dummy.

[Overdispersion]

I don't think you want to waste your penances offensively for evangelism stacks.

For simplicity let's compare 3x offensive penances and 3 stacking AA vs. 3x def penances.

Offensive:
two offensives during archangel
1.15*2*(1.72*33364+3*0.5*1.72*35896) = 344994
one outside
1.72*33364+3*0.5*1.72*35896 = 149997
Giving us
(18-3.4)/1.27 = 11.5 archangeled pws for 11.5*1.15*91200 = 1206120
and outside archangel (12-1.7)/1.27 = 8.1 pws for 738720
sum:
2439831 <=> 81327.7 hps

Defensive:
3*(1.72*107689+3*0.5*1.72*35896) = 833510
and (30-5.1)/1.27 = 19.6 pws for 1787520
sum:
2621030 <=> 87367.7 hps

[Shinra1]

I don't think you want to waste your penances offensively for evangelism stacks.

For simplicity let's compare 3x offensive penances and 3 stacking AA vs. 3x def penances.

Offensive:
two offensives during archangel
1.15*2*(1.72*33364+3*0.5*1.72*35896) = 344994
one outside
1.72*33364+3*0.5*1.72*35896 = 149997
Giving us
(18-3.4)/1.27 = 11.5 archangeled pws for 11.5*1.15*91200 = 1206120
and outside archangel (12-1.7)/1.27 = 8.1 pws for 738720
sum:
2439831 <=> 81327.7 hps

Defensive:
3*(1.72*107689+3*0.5*1.72*35896) = 833510
and (30-5.1)/1.27 = 19.6 pws for 1787520
sum:
2621030 <=> 87367.7 hps

Not only this but the 2/4 set bonuses require defensive penance so why then would you cast it offensively to gain evangelism.


I still maintain that there is sufficient time to gain 5 stacks by smiting twice it may not work EVERY time but it will get you a full power wings MOST of the time.

[Melchey]

The 2p/4p works on Offensive Penance too. It'll heal for what defensive penance would've hit for.

[Pearl1717]

The 2p/4p works on Offensive Penance too. It'll heal for what defensive penance would've hit for.

I hope I'm just misreading this, but an offensive penance will not heal for as much as a defensive penance. Offensive penance healing will be buffed by the 2pc, but will be limited by the amount it does because of atonement.

[Melchey]

Sorry, what I meant is offensive penance will proc the 4p, which the proc will heal for a regular penance tick. A 15k offensive penance can proc a 60k+ defensive penance, that is.

[Pearl1717]

Sorry, what I meant is offensive penance will proc the 4p, which the proc will heal for a regular penance tick. A 15k offensive penance can proc a 60k+ defensive penance, that is.

Ah, interesting. I didn't know that. I only have 3 pieces of t18 so far so I haven't been able to play around with 4pc at all yet (and cause 4pc is still bugged). Hmm if thats the case then it would probably make offensive penance more viable as a means to build evangelism.

[Melchey]

What's the bug with 4p? Haven't really noticed anything buggy with it unless I'm missing something?

[Pearl1717]

"Priest - The Tier 18 Discipline 4 Piece Bonus will always target a character with the least HP regardless of whether they're injured."

I don't remember seeing a post if this was fixed or not yet though, so it might be fixed.

[Shinra1]

The 2p/4p works on Offensive Penance too. It'll heal for what defensive penance would've hit for.

Did not know that.

[Skaiya]

I've since acquired 2-pc, (no 4pc yet) and it does seem like penance is intended to be used offensively, at least a majority of the time. Even at 707 ilvl, a defensive penance tick is healing for roughly 60k, and unless used on a target that is extremely low hp, usually results in overhealing unless the cast is canceled. I raid with a paladin who has their Archimonde trinket, so typically spot healing spike damage is a non-issue, and thus defensive penance is often wasted unless used on the tanks when necessary or to save someone from near-death. With the 4-pc, if above posts are correct - each of your offensive penance ticks is going to have a 50% chance to proc a defensive penance tick on a nearby target, essentially making the 2/4pc combination a 8 second smartheal powerhouse.

[Deleted]

I've since acquired 2-pc, (no 4pc yet) and it does seem like penance is intended to be used offensively, at least a majority of the time. Even at 707 ilvl, a defensive penance tick is healing for roughly 60k, and unless used on a target that is extremely low hp, usually results in overhealing unless the cast is canceled. I raid with a paladin who has their Archimonde trinket, so typically spot healing spike damage is a non-issue, and thus defensive penance is often wasted unless used on the tanks when necessary or to save someone from near-death. With the 4-pc, if above posts are correct - each of your offensive penance ticks is going to have a 50% chance to proc a defensive penance tick on a nearby target, essentially making the 2/4pc combination a 8 second smartheal powerhouse.

Defensive penance has some very good uses on certain encounters though. Think Gorefiend stomach or Velhari healing debuff.

[Pearl1717]

I've since acquired 2-pc, (no 4pc yet) and it does seem like penance is intended to be used offensively, at least a majority of the time. Even at 707 ilvl, a defensive penance tick is healing for roughly 60k, and unless used on a target that is extremely low hp, usually results in overhealing unless the cast is canceled. I raid with a paladin who has their Archimonde trinket, so typically spot healing spike damage is a non-issue, and thus defensive penance is often wasted unless used on the tanks when necessary or to save someone from near-death. With the 4-pc, if above posts are correct - each of your offensive penance ticks is going to have a 50% chance to proc a defensive penance tick on a nearby target, essentially making the 2/4pc combination a 8 second smartheal powerhouse.

What Jinze said. And just in general, there are many times where either tanks are taking a lot of damage, or random raid members spike in damage. Also, don't forget that bigger defensive penances = bigger DA's as well. And that extra DA healing is huge for tanks.